Was Vader going all out?

[Illuminatus Primus]

I agree wholeheartedly. The "Vader's a cripple" thing annoys me.

Just exploring a point of drama here - doesn't it add to the tragedy of Anakin Skywalker that he went from this fully healthy, agile, powerful virile handsome young man into an exact opposite when he joins the dak side in a quest for power. It is deliciously ironic that in his quest for even more power to make sure people stop dying that he becomes a walking iron lung who is literally not half the man he used to be. So much so that Palpy is already looking to his son for a replacement for the crippled old man.

It also plays to the theme of appearances. Judge me by my size do you? Yoda is a tiny green creature that happens to be one of the most powerful force users in the galaxy. Vader who looks the part of the uber powerful dark side user is actually a tired old man desperately looking for a way to get rid of his master before his master gets rid of him.

When we saw ROTJ alot of people were shocked when Luke takes off the mask at the end. We were exepcting many things. A tired old bald man was not something that many were expecting and thus playing to GL's themes of appearances can be deceiving.

Hell even the rebel victory at Endor plays to this theme. We've believed for three movies that the Empire is this invincible war machine when we find out that its all bluster and appearance. Vader being the Empire personafied is the microcosm of this idea. He looks big bad and scary when the truth is so much more ironic.

I like the idea. I think its one of those genius themes that I love GL for in his writing.

Its also totally contradicted and not depicted in the film Lucas himself made, making it kind of a moot point, thank God.

[Isolder74]

Now compaired to what he would be without the injuries from the fight he is 'crippled'

Vader is half the man he used to be. He is no one to mess with I'm sure, but imagine if he didn't have those injuries!

Vader in Empire was obviously not pushing himself as hard as he could have. As for his physical abilities, he mananged to hold his breath long enough allow himself to sneak up on Luke in the tower before the fight on the bridge outside. His attack was almost a blur and Luke managed to dodge it. Vader in Jedi did not truely seemed to be trying to kill Luke either.

[NecronLord]

This assumes the strong machine parts are weaker than the fleshy biological bits Isolder, a belief I don't subscribe to.

[Isolder74]

This assumes the strong machine parts are weaker than the fleshy biological bits Isolder, a belief I don't subscribe to.

I would agree on all other parts other than his iron lung

[Alyrium Denryle]

Now compaired to what he would be without the injuries from the fight he is 'crippled'

Vader is half the man he used to be. He is no one to mess with I'm sure, but imagine if he didn't have those injuries!

Vader in Empire was obviously not pushing himself as hard as he could have. As for his physical abilities, he mananged to hold his breath long enough allow himself to sneak up on Luke in the tower before the fight on the bridge outside. His attack was almost a blur and Luke managed to dodge it. Vader in Jedi did not truely seemed to be trying to kill Luke either.

The reson being that he still loved, and never wanted to kill his son. He probably viewed turning him to the ark side as the only way to save him. You could see it in his mask as Luke was being force-lightninged

'Your thoughts are in conflict, let go of your hate" luke said. Vader denied it, but that conflict was there. The internal struggle between love and hatred in his heart. His love for his son vying for control with the dark side over vaders heart and mind. He was psychologically incapable of killing luke

[The Prime Necromancer]

I think it's sufficient for tragedy purposes that he's grievously disfigured and lost the woman he loves, as well as gone over to evil. When you extend that to "he's a cripple", it works against one of the best things about a great good vs evil film- a fantastic villain. Anything that weakens the villain is shit.

Amen. I mean, Vader is one of the greatest film villains of all time. It may verge on fanboyism, but I want him to be able to kick Jedi ass, damn it. I mean, what was GL thinking when he compared Luke to a "half-trained boy" and Vader to a cripple? Way to lessen the impact of the two most important characters in the trilogy, George. It just really annoys me that it's likely that in his mind, flashy fighters like Maul or young Obi-Wan could probably kick his ass.

I'm usually not fond of the EU, but in this case I'm actually glad for it: it shows at least a couple times where Vader was able to defeat experienced Jedi.

Furthermore, the idea that Star Wars can make a droid like the R2 unit (or Guri) and not make prostetics for the galaxy's second richest man that are superior to the original is really pissing on the grave of credibility. I would expect Vader to be able to punch his way through the walls of my house with no difficulty even not using the force to be honest.

Yeah, and if GL would have *realized* that, we would have had a good, logical, in-universe reason for why in a galaxy where the medical tech should be perfectly capable of creating replacement biological parts for one of the galaxy's most powerful men, he would choose mechanical parts: because it actually *made him stronger* rather than hurting him. But no: we get the crappy-ass "he's weaker now since he's less organic and due to having fewer midichlorians."

[THEHOOLIGANJEDI]

The thing to remember, is that Lord Vader isn't, as Lucas erroneously claimed, a cripple. He has full mobility. Look at him walk around in the films, the only real problem he has in terms of movement is the risk of tripping over his cape and robes. Jedi speed comes from the force. Nothing prevents Vader zooming around like Qui Gon and Obi Wan in TPM if he wishes to.

It is important to remember that Sith Lord lightsabre (single blade) fighting is different from the Form IV used in the prequels. A Sith Lord seeks out Jedi and kills them one on one, or one on two. He does not, as a rule, have to parry blasters (hell, Vader could just block them with his hand) or move around to counter many enemies - he usually has goons like stormtroopers to do that sort of thing for him. Naturally, the chosen single blade styles are not going to be the agile form IV, ideal for destroying battle droids, but manifestly inferior to a more focused style like Dooku's Form II when used for single combat, simply because the wide strokes and acrobatic movements that are ideal for deflecting blaster bolts or killing battle-droids are wasteful in comparison to a simple stab, (economy of movement) that would be harder to parry with the form IV style, especially given the ability of a force weilding opponent to dampen the powers which allow feats of extreme speed and strength.

Were Vader fighting a multitude of opponents (I'm looking at you Stavro ) it's not inconceivable that he would temporarily switch back to the styles Anakin would have learnt in his youth, and become a black and crimson blur of death.

I agree wholeheartedly. The "Vader's a cripple" thing annoys me.

I second that.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Fuck him, his opinions don't matter shit when analyzing the work.