Voter Ignorance

[Stravo]

My brother called me last night.

"Frank, you know the Supreme Court right?"

"Sure."

"Do you know Justice Bell?"

"Uh...who?"

"Justice Bell, he's running for relection."

"Relection?! Dave, the Justices of the Supreme Court are appointed by the president."

"Oh...*long pause followed by sound of light bulb going off* But they have to be relected right?"

"Uh...No. The appointment is for life."

"But this ballot clearly has this Justice of the Supreme Court Bell for re-election."

"Which ballot?"

"My absentee ballot."

I smile triumphantly as deductive reasoning kicks in.

"You mean the Florida Supreme Court, right?" *My brother lives in Miami*

*Long pause and then a sigh of relief/embarassment.

"Oh shit! That must be it. Sorry to bother you about that Frank. Hey do you know who pop is voting for?"

"Who do you think Dave, dad is a Republican robot."

"I guess that means Bush right?" *very uncertain about this indicating David's utter ignorance of the party system as usual*

"Yes."

"And you?"

"I want that Nazi son of a bitch out of the White House."

*Nervous laughter*

"My girlfriend is a huge Bush fan."

"Yeah I know, she keeps sending me E-Mails of Pro Bush propaganda which I've stopped repsonding to with my witty commentray since it hasn't seemed to do anything but she still sends them like clockwork."

"Yeah I guess....her whole family is pro Bush..." *Its like he's asking me permission to vote Bush. Hell I know which side his sex bread is buttered on. *

"You gotta vote with who you believe in. No one's gonna know anyway. Though I really hope you guys don't fuck up our elections again this year. No hanging chads dmanit."

*Nervous Laughter. The joke has obviously sailed over his head as he does not get the reference.*

"I'll talk to you later."

"See ya."

I love my brother. Have no doubts about that. But my brother has had ZERO interest in politics from day one. A fact that pissed my dad off because he loves to debate his children in politics or at least have us as yes men to his own right wing zingers. My brother was always clueless. So now I know that he will vote Bush because his GF and her family will and most of Repub Cuban family down in Florida will as well even though he probably has no clue what's going on or have a hang of the issues. I also know he has no clue how the Supreme Court works. This man has the same vote that I do and will be weighted the same. It makes me sad.

My boss recently relayed an embarassing story where his 15 yo son asked him if Bush wins does he get to have Edwards as a VP. My boss asked him to not ask him that again and to go do some research because it was embarassing that at his age and grade level he did not know the fundmentals of how our government works.

It scares the shit out of me (and also pisses me off on another level) that people like this can just walk into a poll booth and vote without knowing a fucking thing about the issues or even how their government works.

Sorry, this may belong in venting but it also asks a pertinent question. Why the hell should the ignorant vote?

[Jalinth]

My boss recently relayed an embarassing story where his 15 yo son asked him if Bush wins does he get to have Edwards as a VP. My boss asked him to not ask him that again and to go do some research because it was embarassing that at his age and grade level he did not know the fundmentals of how our government works.

It scares the shit out of me (and also pisses me off on another level) that people like this can just walk into a poll booth and vote without knowing a fucking thing about the issues or even how their government works.

Sorry, this may belong in venting but it also asks a pertinent question. Why the hell should the ignorant vote?

Just read in the National Post that apparently the US could get Bush as Pres and Edwards as VP. What they stated was that, in a tie, the House votes for the President and the Senate votes for the VP. Wouldn't this be a fun event - Edwards would be praying for Bush incapacity - then he'd see what he could do as temporary Pres.

Is this information actually true? (seems bizarre, but might fit the original US constitution which had the "loser" taking up the VP spot before they changed it).

[fgalkin]

Yes, if there is an electoral college tie, then the House picks the President, while the Senate picks the VP.

So, Stravo, your boss's kid was right after all.


EDIT: Here's the article in question

The Person having the greatest Number of Votes shall be the President, if such Number be a Majority of the whole Number of Electors appointed; and if there be more than one who have such Majority, and have an equal Number of Votes, then the House of Representatives shall immediately chuse by Ballot one of them for President; and if no Person have a Majority, then from the five highest on the List the said House shall in like Manner chuse the President. But in chusing the President, the Votes shall be taken by States, the Representation from each State having one Vote; A quorum for this Purpose shall consist of a Member or Members from two thirds of the States, and a Majority of all the States shall be necessary to a Choice. In every Case, after the Choice of the President, the Person having the greatest Number of Votes of the Electors shall be the Vice President. But if there should remain two or more who have equal Votes, the Senate shall chuse from them by Ballot the Vice President.

have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Raven]

I was just about to post something like this (debating between here or SLAM).

The ignorant vote because it's a constitutionally guaranteed right, not something you have to earn.

Now the question is whether or not ignorant voting is morally right.

Is an ignorant vote wrong? In order for a stupid vote to be wrong, wouldn't that require one of the choices to be inherently wrong?

[Stravo]

Is an ignorant vote wrong? In order for a stupid vote to be wrong, wouldn't that require one of the choices to be inherently wrong?

Why should someone who doesn't even know how the government or system they are voting for works count as much for someone who has taken the time to at least understand the fundmentals of their government.

Its not a question of whether one choice is right or wrong, It's a question of demanding a level of knowledge from someone to have a say in how we are governed.

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

Because there is no way to keep any "voting test" from becoming an idealogical one, given time and human nature.
The communist party had this idea. Only those who are educated politicaly can vote, and being kicked out for being "too stupid to vote" was how they maintained their "high standards."

You want THAT?

ONLY by giving the moron vote equal weight do you eliminate the possibility of "towing the party line" = "informed voter".
Otherwise----

Old joke.
Black man wants to vote. Sherrif gives him "literacy test."
Gives him a ball point pen, and a piece of waxed paper. "Write your name boy!" says the sherrif.
""Funny," thinks the man," I could write this morning!" after not writing.

Sherrif gives him a Chinese newspaper, and says, "Read me something, boy!"
The man looks at the paper and says, "I can't make out the little print, but the headline clearly reads "No niggers voting here today!"

The ONLY alternative to one man one vote, is worse.

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

Only letting people with some knowledge of the system would help, but like many things, it would be virtually impossible to enforce. What would be considered significant knowledge of the process? How would you find out? How do you keep the ignorant out of the polls?

[Master of Ossus]

Only letting people with some knowledge of the system would help, but like many things, it would be virtually impossible to enforce. What would be considered significant knowledge of the process? How would you find out? How do you keep the ignorant out of the polls?

I wonder which party would be hurt more by such a change. On the one hand, a lot of Republicans are hard-core fundies who may have ducked education. On the other hand, a lot of Democrats are not wealthy and relatively uneducated.

[General Zod]

Only letting people with some knowledge of the system would help, but like many things, it would be virtually impossible to enforce. What would be considered significant knowledge of the process? How would you find out? How do you keep the ignorant out of the polls?

standardized testing of general political knowledge when you register and a certificate stating you're considered competent, perhaps? at the very least it would make it so that people who don't even realize how the vp is selected couldn't vote, and would mean you'd have to demonstrate some knowledge of how the system actually works before you could. Perhaps have a period every so many years where you have to get it renewed if you want to continue voting.

[StimNeuro]

Only letting people with some knowledge of the system would help, but like many things, it would be virtually impossible to enforce. What would be considered significant knowledge of the process? How would you find out? How do you keep the ignorant out of the polls?

standardized testing of general political knowledge when you register and a certificate stating you're considered competent, perhaps? at the very least it would make it so that people who don't even realize how the vp is selected couldn't vote, and would mean you'd have to demonstrate some knowledge of how the system actually works before you could. Perhaps have a period every so many years where you have to get it renewed if you want to continue voting.

Who to you propose who create this test? It can't be government designed, they have a hard enough time drawing district lines without trying to manipulate the overall mix. It can't be an 'independent' group, because you never know how they or their successors will design such a test. If you have an independent group design it and try to pass it through government approval, you've just created a system that mirrors the lobbyist problem in DC, only with the government representatives being the lobbyists.

[UCBooties]

Yeah the unfortunate fact of free democracy is that the democracy has to represent the whole populace. Even in a representative democracy must have strictures to ensure that all of the people are represented. Which means the only way to maintain freedom is to allow every citizen, even those who can't be bothered to understand their government, a say in who represents them.