OK, I know that Saxton didn't authorize this in HIS ITW

[Lord of the Farce]

Because goofy rich liberals (most extreme environmentalist included here) don't care at all about their Malibu mansions and careers. Nope, not at all.

Their mansions are probably on Alderaan to begin with. And what are they going to do? Take up arms and revolt? Oh yeah, they're Goody-Two-Shoe pacifist who wouldn't dream of revolution.

Since you guys insist that the shields, except Byss and Coruscant, must be kept down due to power constraints.

Since when did I do that? Hmmm? You don't power one of the most powerful electric fences on the planet using a 12 volt car battery now, do you?

Alternatively, if you're now abandoning you're baseless "the shield raising is obviously an intentionally and popularly hostile action which necessitates total annhiliation!" thesis

Sounds like a false dilemma. Why would Alderaan have to keep it's shield up 24/7 just because they had it? Especially if they were trying to keep it's presence hidden?

and now saying the shield may be kept up for a long time, than, as TISB describes, the Empire can simply deploy orbital nightcloaks, starving the planet of EM and killing the harvest. If they open the shield to try and shoot down the sats, they risk the generators being shot by the Imperials in orbit.

Please point out example of open deployment of orbital nightcloaks previous to the taking of Coruscant by the Alliance.

Too bad that guy wasn't in the Alliance. Oh, technicalities!

So if Saddam had been funding and providing materials to the people behind 9/11 (or similar), and taking advantage of the problems which comes up as a result of these people, what would you call it?

I didn't see any plausible scene cuts where "and no defenses, either!" could have slipped through.

I mean, it's not like we know that Vader had previously interrogated Leia for an indefinite period of time.

Oh, wait...

More likely, but antiethical to your Goodie Imp position, Vader was coming up with a sorry-ass refutation to the Princess' claim by citing static defenses as equivalent to offensive weaponry.

WHO THE FUCK IS TRYING TO SAY THAT THE EMPIRE IS ALL SQUEAKY CLEAN AND SMELLING OF ROSES? Care to try to put more words into my mouth just because I'm trying to see beyond the black-and-white of a situation?

In other words, you have no evidence, like usual.

Except, of course, for the Rebels letting loose dangerous criminals - that even the Empire wanted to lock up and throw away the key - on Coruscant. So you can stick that into the same place where you pulled "you have no evidence, like usual" from.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Well it gives them a -chance- for survival, which is more than mass scattering the entire planet, genius.

A chance? Yeah, but it also gives those others a very painful experience.

And why would the ISB have the liquidate half the population? Its your UNPROVEN assertion that the populace will support Organa's secret activities.

I've always said it is a major issue point. If he had over 50% support, then the Alderaanian people as a whole are traitorous, and the other guys that are dead are "collateral damage". If it is under 50%, then Bail Organa sold out the will of his people, and eventually made them all paid with their lives.

People who are offered amnesty or the option to starve to death WILL overthrow the government. This isn't the Zealots and Masada where they all knew the legions were going to butcher them or sell them into slavery.

Considering the fanaticism of Rebels, I really doubt this. General Tagge evaluates the Rebels as fanatics. And honestly, who but a fanatic will be willing to join the Rebellion in the first place with the odds the way they were?

Technological stasis; this probably means the operational form has not been fully implemented in the fleet - it exists, and the Empire has had to take worlds with defenses before. Its not like shielded worlds just got away with murder before the Death Star.

They probably beseiged them, for months. The base techs may be there, but the product isn't, and that's all that matters.

Too bad you're clueless; I never claimed you were wrong because of your intent or that you had to stay close to a lower estimate because that's what it started off with. But who cares when you're playing hard and fast with fallacy names, eh?

The point being that the more radically you want to say something is wrong or inaccurate in the canon, the more precise or conclusive evidence you need to have. You DO NOT HAVE ANY EVIDENCE. Only "shoulds" and "probablys."

Anytime you do not actually see the area occupied, you can only say it is "probably" occupied.

First, you say that you don't have to stick close to a lower estimate from the official, then you say that a large delta from the official requires "more precise and conclusive" evidence. In other words, you are saying that there is a sticking force to a lower estimate.

And honestly, I don't see why. Unlike statements, numbers are either right or wrong (within of course a tight tolerance), and because canon estimates tend to be Order of Magnitude things, a small error is not going to have a complaint at all. Are you telling me that if (example that should be reasonably accurate to truth) the best canon evidence for Coruscant implies in the range of 1 quadrillion people, I should deliberately dream of a way to bring it down to say 100 trillion, just because the official said it was 1 trillion?

In any case, you must see something when you see the Death Star in your mind. We all do ... anybody who has seen the Death Star once would have. So tell me, in that vision, how many people are you seeing? Millions? Tens of millions? Hundreds of millions? If you say billions, you are just agreeing with me, so that won't be it.

The Illustrated Star Wars Universe by Anderson, genius.

You must be getting real desperate to use something made by KJA

Its simple. TISWU depicts levels of development at least consistent with Geonosis if not outright more unnatural and extensive.

More seriously, let's not be simple. Tell me more.

In the Corellia example, it was policy for awhile for them to demand all traders deliver to outposts at the edge of the sector, and their merchant marine would bring them in and around the sector.

Interesting, but there is no evidence Alderaan requires such a scheme. IN the Paradise Snare, Han Solo got into the system pretty darn easily, without any such isolation procedures.

[Connor MacLeod]

Sadly, he can. While he hasn't declared it yet (I think), but if one day, he declares that his visuals are not real (and visuals are the base of virtually all scientific analysis) portrayals, we are just going to have to choke it down. Of course, it means the near dearth of scientific analysis, but that's the way it is.

No, he can't. Otherwise there's not much point to Suspension of Disbelief or technical analysis if some idiot can't get his facts straight, is there?

Or put another way, "behind the scenes" comments and information (like models) CAN be of value in clarifying what we might see onscreen, but they don't override it either. Lucas cannot dictate something that goes against something quite obvious in the movie (He can't say that Alderaan blew up because Bail Organa had mexican for dinner rather than because the Superlaser hit, for example). If Lucas were to explicitly claim that the Death Star were smaller than 900 km (or if the ILM artists were to, for that matter), ,would this automatically invalidate the canon movie scalings? No, it wouldn't.

What? They qualify as canon? Not just the parts that are explicitly in the film?

Yes. The place of the DK books in the "hierarchy" have been discussed long since now. Wayne's covered it pretty well in fact on his site, I believe. Ask him.

I don't know what you are imagining. A redundant backup can be set to be Online and Operational so there is no gap when the Primary fails, UPS style. There's no gap because the power supply could be made parallel

Main(Run)-------Power_______Shielding System
Backup(Run)----Regulator

No gap? Are you seriously assuming that they actually have the reactors running and generating power while on mere backup as well? Otherwise I fail to see why you assume there is no gap.

Of which either Main or Backup could shoulder the whole load in an emergency, without significant interruption.

So in other words, you are assuming they are actively running two reactors simultaneously. Care to tell me where all this excess power is going to?

But you said they had a backup! I said I had no problem with a backup per se.

So then why are you still nitpicking?

Are you telling me the network was like this, with "wires" (or whatever SW uses for wires) connecting everyone to the generator, and none of the local stations have their own generator:

Projector-Projector-Projector-Projector/Generator-Projector-Projector-Projecter

And they hit the center one.

Why not? The Death STar's main reactor powered its own shielding, wouldn't you think?

[Connor MacLeod]

Connor MacLeod:
What you quoted is:

The Alliance had to strike before the facility was operational - but the Bothans also reported that hte Death Star was protected by a massive defensive shield projected from a generator and dish network located on the surface of the forest moon.

(emphasis mine)
The difference between our POVs is the following:
- You read the emphasised part as:
"the Death Star was protected by a portion of a massive defensive shield projected from a generator and dish network"
- whereas I read it as:
"the Death Star was protected by the massive defensive shield projected from a generator and dish network"

So basically you're nitpicking the definition of "network" into ambiguity? What the fuck kind of argument is that? How the hell do you expect a generator "pointing" a shield at the 2nd Death STar to ALSO project a shield around the moon itself? (the shield geometries are fucked up.)

Moreover, you neglect the rather blatant fact that I've pointed to examples that supporrt multiple generators as being typical for full planetary shielding "networks" - to my knowledge there is no example of a full planetary shield projected by a single generator.) The weight of evidence is if anything on my side here, so nice try.

[Rogue 9]

So if Saddam had been funding and providing materials to the people behind 9/11 (or similar), and taking advantage of the problems which comes up as a result of these people, what would you call it?

Provide evidence that the Alliance was deliberately and knowingly providing funding to Elscol Loro and her gang in full knowledge of the nature of their activities or retract.

I've always said it is a major issue point. If he had over 50% support, then the Alderaanian people as a whole are traitorous, and the other guys that are dead are "collateral damage". If it is under 50%, then Bail Organa sold out the will of his people, and eventually made them all paid with their lives.

They were all traitors because we say they are! Who needs trials and evidence? Commence primary ignition! HEIL HITLER!

Considering the fanaticism of Rebels, I really doubt this. General Tagge evaluates the Rebels as fanatics. And honestly, who but a fanatic will be willing to join the Rebellion in the first place with the odds the way they were?

You don't have to be a fanatic to take a stand against such overwhelming evil as the Empire. Tagge's evaluation of his opponents is hardly objective in the first place anyway.

They probably beseiged them, for months. The base techs may be there, but the product isn't, and that's all that matters.

*Cough*Torpedo spheres*cough*

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

I've always said it is a major issue point. If he had over 50% support, then the Alderaanian people as a whole are traitorous, and the other guys that are dead are "collateral damage". If it is under 50%, then Bail Organa sold out the will of his people, and eventually made them all paid with their lives.

They were all traitors because we say they are! Who needs trials and evidence? Commence primary ignition! HEIL HITLER!

Look pal. If you fund the Rebellion, or use your own consular ships and Senators to help spy on the newest weapon for the Rebels, I don't think you'd find many forgiving governments.

You don't have to be a fanatic to take a stand against such overwhelming evil as the Empire. Tagge's evaluation of his opponents is hardly objective in the first place anyway.

It is their POV that would be used for the Death Star firing decision. In any case, anyone that attacks in the face of such odds is pretty hard to distinguish from a fanatic, from any governmental point of view.

*Cough*Torpedo spheres*cough*

How much yield do you think those torpedoes have? I am truly doubtful of their ability to cause an adequate ripple against the first-rate E37J Aldie shield, even over a 6m^2 for a few microseconds to allow a clean shot, and that they supposedly have less power than a the heaviest level of TL (the D stats).

[Darth Wong]

They were all traitors because we say they are! Who needs trials and evidence? Commence primary ignition! HEIL HITLER!

You'll have to point me to all of the cases in military history where the victims of bombing campaigns were given a fair trial before being bombed, up to and including the present Gulf War. For some strange reason, I've never heard of these trials; they must have taken place in a rather obscure location, LIKE YOUR FUCKING MINDLESS INFLAMMATORY BULLSHIT RHETORIC-SPEWING DIPSHIT ASS.

[Rogue 9]

Look pal. If you fund the Rebellion, or use your own consular ships and Senators to help spy on the newest weapon for the Rebels, I don't think you'd find many forgiving governments.

You won't find many that will destroy an entire city within which are a few traitors rather than go in and arrest the traitors either.

It is their POV that would be used for the Death Star firing decision. In any case, anyone that attacks in the face of such odds is pretty hard to distinguish from a fanatic, from any governmental point of view.

Yes, but it is not their POV that determines whether population of Alderaan at large would force the government to surrender or not, which is what you were objecting to. Furthermore, you have provided no evidence that a large majority of the Alderaanians were Rebels.

How much yield do you think those torpedoes have? I am truly doubtful of their ability to cause an adequate ripple against the first-rate E37J Aldie shield, even over a 6m^2 for a few microseconds to allow a clean shot, and that they supposedly have less power than a the heaviest level of TL (the D stats).

The spheres are stated to be capable of concentrating hundreds of high yield torpedoes simultaneously upon a single point in a planetary shield, overwhelming it in that area, and then using a turbolaser strike following a bare fraction of a second later to hit the generators through the resulting overstressed hole. That is their one and only purpose. If they can't do it, why do they exist?

[Rogue 9]

They were all traitors because we say they are! Who needs trials and evidence? Commence primary ignition! HEIL HITLER!

You'll have to point me to all of the cases in military history where the victims of bombing campaigns were given a fair trial before being bombed, up to and including the present Gulf War. For some strange reason, I've never heard of these trials; they must have taken place in a rather obscure location, LIKE YOUR FUCKING MINDLESS INFLAMMATORY BULLSHIT RHETORIC-SPEWING DIPSHIT ASS.

His position is that every single person on Alderaan, or at least a majority thereof, is guilty of treason and that the Death Star was dispensing their punishment. Mine is that if such is the case rather than Tarkin just being an ass, it is 1.) a judicial operation, not a military one and 2.) one presuming the guilt of the condemned. The destruction of Alderaan was needless from a military standpoint. The planet posed no immediate and imminent threat to the Galactic Empire that necessitated its immediate and total destruction. As far as the canon evidence shows, the treason on Alderaan extended no further than the House of Organa and its immediate supporters. The entire planet was hardly in full revolt. I contend that it was not a military target.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

You won't find many that will destroy an entire city within which are a few traitors rather than go in and arrest the traitors either.

How are they going to arrest the traitors? The shields are up! (BTW, this is the #X cycle on this topic in this thread alone?)

Yes, but it is not their POV that determines whether population of Alderaan at large would force the government to surrender or not, which is what you were objecting to. Furthermore, you have provided no evidence that a large majority of the Alderaanians were Rebels.

I gave you the answers for both scenarios. You can either say that Alderaan is a democracy. Or else you can say that Bail Organa betrayed not only the Empire which he swore to serve (no doubt he'd have sworn that on his induction as a Senator), but betrayed his own people as well.

In any case, Perception is more important than Fact in decision making. What you Perceive to be the Truth determines your actions, not the Truth itself.

The spheres are stated to be capable of concentrating hundreds of high yield torpedoes simultaneously upon a single point in a planetary shield, overwhelming it in that area, and then using a turbolaser strike following a bare fraction of a second later to hit the generators through the resulting overstressed hole. That is their one and only purpose. If they can't do it, why do they exist?

Do you think those torpedoes can blow up an unshielded planet individually? I have no doubt that kind of trick can work on a lesser shield. Just that I doubt its ability to cross so many orders of magnitude of ability.

[Darth Wong]

You'll have to point me to all of the cases in military history where the victims of bombing campaigns were given a fair trial before being bombed, up to and including the present Gulf War. For some strange reason, I've never heard of these trials; they must have taken place in a rather obscure location, LIKE YOUR FUCKING MINDLESS INFLAMMATORY BULLSHIT RHETORIC-SPEWING DIPSHIT ASS.

His position is that every single person on Alderaan, or at least a majority thereof, is guilty of treason and that the Death Star was dispensing their punishment.

Cities get "punished" in war for being part of the enemy. This is a civil war. So you don't need to prove that every single citizen is guilty in a court of law, you idiot.

Mine is that if such is the case rather than Tarkin just being an ass, it is 1.) a judicial operation, not a military one and 2.) one presuming the guilt of the condemned.

Star Wars does not begin with an opening crawl that says "IT IS A TIME OF JUDICIAL ACTIONS', dumb-shit. It begins with an opening crawl that says "IT IS A TIME OF CIVIL WAR". What are you, blind?

The destruction of Alderaan was needless from a military standpoint.

And you know this because of what, exactly? Your intimate knowledge of the state of politics in the Empire at the time?

The planet posed no immediate and imminent threat to the Galactic Empire that necessitated its immediate and total destruction.

Like it or not, cities need not pose an "immediate and imminent threat" in order to be targeted in wartime. Simply being aligned with the enemy has historically been sufficient justification. Now, if you'd simply accept that the US is a giant war criminal nation and hurl your HEIL HITLER inflammatory bullshit rhetoric in that direction as well, fine. Otherwise, blow me.

As far as the canon evidence shows, the treason on Alderaan extended no further than the House of Organa and its immediate supporters. The entire planet was hardly in full revolt. I contend that it was not a military target.

Your contention is worth precisely dick. The planet does not have to be in "full revolt" if its leadership has aligned itself with the enemy.

[Rogue 9]

Cities get "punished" in war for being part of the enemy. This is a civil war. So you don't need to prove that every single citizen is guilty in a court of law, you idiot.

The wholesale destruction of an entire planetary populace goes far beyond a simple act of war. Furthermore, the Empire could easily have simply obliterated the capital city if getting rid of the leadership is what they wanted. Or just invaded and subjugated the planet at almost no cost; the Empire is friggin' huge and Alderaan maintains no significant standing military forces. If they did, protesting otherwise would have been a stupid move for Leia, as the Empire well knows what Alderaan is doing. Instead, they up and blew away the entire planet. This is like the U.S. responding to the secession of Oregon by turning the place into a smoking glass crater.

Star Wars does not begin with an opening crawl that says "IT IS A TIME OF JUDICIAL ACTIONS', dumb-shit. It begins with an opening crawl that says "IT IS A TIME OF CIVIL WAR". What are you, blind?

Actually, I am legally blind. Vision's about 20/210. But anyway, Kazuaki's position that the Empire was totally justified because they were all traitors doesn't hold up unless that is true, and since it isn't his argument fails on that score. Thank you.

And you know this because of what, exactly? Your intimate knowledge of the state of politics in the Empire at the time?

They aren't doing much once placed under Imperial military occupation, now are they? Destroying the planet was unnecessary because there were other, less atrocious means of neutralizing the planet. That even assumes that the Empire had a right to impose tyranny and occupation on the galaxy in the first place, but the Empire believing it had the right, or simply believing that it's might made it right, is a given in any case. Also, politics have very little to do with military necessity, besides interfering with it.

Like it or not, cities need not pose an "immediate and imminent threat" in order to be targeted in wartime. Simply being aligned with the enemy has historically been sufficient justification. Now, if you'd simply accept that the US is a giant war criminal nation and hurl your HEIL HITLER inflammatory bullshit rhetoric in that direction as well, fine. Otherwise, blow me.

I have already conceded that Dresden was an atrocious and heinous act when you raised this point earlier in this thread, but it doesn't even begin to compare to Alderaan.

Your contention is worth precisely dick. The planet does not have to be in "full revolt" if its leadership has aligned itself with the enemy.

Governor Tarkin himself stated that it wasn't a military target!

You want another target, a military target, then name the system!

What more do you need?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

The wholesale destruction of an entire planetary populace goes far beyond a simple act of war. Furthermore, the Empire could easily have simply obliterated the capital city if getting rid of the leadership is what they wanted. Or just invaded and subjugated the planet at almost no cost; the Empire is friggin' huge and Alderaan maintains no significant standing military forces. If they did, protesting otherwise would have been a stupid move for Leia, as the Empire well knows what Alderaan is doing. Instead, they up and blew away the entire planet. This is like the U.S. responding to the secession of Oregon by turning the place into a smoking glass crater.

You seem to still imagine that precision must be possible through the shield.

Actually, I am legally blind. Vision's about 20/210. But anyway, Kazuaki's position that the Empire was totally justified because they were all traitors doesn't hold up unless that is true, and since it isn't his argument fails on that score. Thank you.

I gave you both scenarios. But Darth Wong, being a far more experienced debater, created one that worked under any scenario. I'm still kicking myself for not seeing this easy route. That's why he's a Sith Lord and I'm a few steps up from total Rookie.

They aren't doing much once placed under Imperial military occupation, now are they? Destroying the planet was unnecessary because there were other, less atrocious means of neutralizing the planet.

They would, like the Wookiees, try and sneak around. Here comes that Alternative Portion of the debate. How are they supposed to land their little occupation army under the shield anyway?

BTW, for any new altenative you think up, consider this question. Suppose the Empire first tried whatever method(s) you suggested, and they failed, then they blew up the planet. How mollified would you be in seeing that. Or are you simply going to whine even more loudly for the Aldies, saying that the Empire tortured that "defiant" planet, but couldn't break its will, and in its final act of "evil" destroyed it?

That even assumes that the Empire had a right to impose tyranny and occupation on the galaxy in the first place, but the Empire believing it had the right, or simply believing that it's might made it right, is a given in any case. Also, politics have very little to do with military necessity, besides interfering with it.

Too bad, it is the legitimate government.

Governor Tarkin himself stated that it wasn't a military target!

Fine, since it was the main supply of munitions, it was only a strategic target. Strategic targets are valid attack targets.

[GeneralTacticus]

A question re: Alderaan's shield: if (as someone posted earlier in the thread) shields typically take several minutes to activate, what exactly is stopping the Empire from simply dropping a few ISDs into orbit around the planet and slagging the projectors before the shield comes online? It would undoubtedly be messy, but I don't see why it would be more so than the total destruction of the planet.

[Rogue 9]

You seem to still imagine that precision must be possible through the shield.

You still seem to imagine that the Empire pre-Death Star was incapable of dealing with a shielded world.

I gave you both scenarios. But Darth Wong, being a far more experienced debater, created one that worked under any scenario. I'm still kicking myself for not seeing this easy route. That's why he's a Sith Lord and I'm a few steps up from total Rookie.

Created one what? A scenario that works under any scenario? There's some sort of disconnect here...

They would, like the Wookiees, try and sneak around. Here comes that Alternative Portion of the debate. How are they supposed to land their little occupation army under the shield anyway?

Torpedo spheres, extended bombardment, the existing Imperial garrison doing it's fuggin' job and seizing a shield generator, and so on and so forth. A planetary shield is not the be-all and end-all short of the Death Star.

BTW, for any new altenative you think up, consider this question. Suppose the Empire first tried whatever method(s) you suggested, and they failed, then they blew up the planet. How mollified would you be in seeing that. Or are you simply going to whine even more loudly for the Aldies, saying that the Empire tortured that "defiant" planet, but couldn't break its will, and in its final act of "evil" destroyed it?

The other methods would work. They wouldn't be so instantaneous and final as the Death Star, but that's rather the point. And even if they did fail, you still have to figure out just what required and justified such measures. And even if you could, to prove that the Empire isn't evil you'd have to justify Caamas. And Ralltiir. And Despayre. And whatever system the Death Star plans were intercepted in; I don't remember the name.

Too bad, it is the legitimate government.

Not with the way Palpatine established it, it isn't. The Senate vote was a fraud; we well know that he was influencing the Senators through the Force.

Fine, since it was the main supply of munitions, it was only a strategic target. Strategic targets are valid attack targets.

The munitions dump was a valid target. The entire planet was not. Do you not see the distinction here?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

You still seem to imagine that the Empire pre-Death Star was incapable of dealing with a shielded world.

You don't seem to understand what 10 orders of magnitude mean. Aldie's shield is clearly a first-rate one, and is not the kind of opponent that can be dealt with easily.

Created one what? A scenario that works under any scenario? There's some sort of disconnect here...

Sorry ... an argument then...

Torpedo spheres,

Tell me the chances of a frigging 4D WEG capital scale (the 9D is a shield only statistic, which I presume took into account the extra effect power would have on a shield despite low yields) weapon penetrating 1E37J shields. We are talking a completely different caliber here.

(If the DS1's blast on that scale is about 1E38J = 16D Death Star and the Eclipse, who can't break the planet apart is about 11D Death Star, the 1E37J Alderaan shield probably rates about 15D Death Star - that means even by RPG rules, the torpedoes in the sphere, as a "Capital Scale" weapon, will have a die cap of one, which means it is a 9 Death Sar Scale, while the lowest the Aldie shield can go is 15 (the highest is 90). Therefore, even in the cramped up WEG system, it won't stand a chance. It might stand a chance against that 6D shield they mentioned).

extended bombardment,

By extended, I hope you are not seriously thinking years is an acceptable value.

the existing Imperial garrison doing it's fuggin' job and seizing a shield generator, and so on and so forth.

Somehow, I'm supicious of the presence of an Imperial garrison on planet, considering how peaceful it was supposed to be. You'd have to land a new one. Besides, even if there was one, a regular garrison would only have a few battalions. It cannot maintain order over 2 billion unless you land a huge number of reinforcements, and the reinforcements are all above the shield.

The other methods would work.

I doubt it. The power disparity is too great.

And even if they did fail, you still have to figure out just what required and justified such measures.

You see? Even if it could be proven the SL was the only way, you would still object to it.

And even if you could, to prove that the Empire isn't evil you'd have to justify Caamas.

Insufficient unbiased data to make determination.

And Ralltiir.

Don't even know that one.

And Despayre.

Wasn't that a prison colony world? They are probably political prisoners. As the Empire, I wouldn't be feeling any great tears in blowing 'em up. From a mercy point of view, it was merciful.

And whatever system the Death Star plans were intercepted in; I don't remember the name.

It was Toprawa. One has to understand the fury of the Imperial government at the moment, especially after the DS got blown up thanks to that leak.

Not with the way Palpatine established it, it isn't. The Senate vote was a fraud; we well know that he was influencing the Senators through the Force.

You are better off pointing out he incited the Clone Wars like either Joe or Kurgan (your allies did) - though since no one knew, it can't be an argument for them. The influence is no worse than the little "advantages" and bribes in that urky world called politics. The point was that the vital factor in de facto legitimacy is recognition, and in sending their Senators over, they are recognizing its legitimacy

The munitions dump was a valid target. The entire planet was not. Do you not see the distinction here?

Yes, unfortunately a precision attack was deemed impossible. Thus they attacked the munitions dump and the collateral damage was the planet. On the way, they achieved a lot of other objectives ... the only problem was that they let it get destroyed, thus it backfired.

[Rogue 9]

Don't even know that one.

From the Guide to the Star Wars Universe, third edition:

A high-technology planet known for its banking industry. When the Ralltiir High Council tried to oppose the Empire prior to the Battle of Yavin, the Emperor decided to make the planet an example to other worlds that would defy his will. He sent a brutal Imperial force, led by Lord Tion, to invade and devastate the planet.

Ralltiir is the opening setting of the A New Hope radio dramatization.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

A high-technology planet known for its banking industry. When the Ralltiir High Council tried to oppose the Empire prior to the Battle of Yavin, the Emperor decided to make the planet an example to other worlds that would defy his will. He sent a brutal Imperial force, led by Lord Tion, to invade and devastate the planet.

Ralltiir is the opening setting of the A New Hope radio dramatization.[/quote]

Tell me why I can't work up a great wave of sympathy.

[Kurgan]

You'll have to point me to all of the cases in military history where the victims of bombing campaigns were given a fair trial before being bombed, up to and including the present Gulf War. For some strange reason, I've never heard of these trials; they must have taken place in a rather obscure location, LIKE YOUR FUCKING MINDLESS INFLAMMATORY BULLSHIT RHETORIC-SPEWING DIPSHIT ASS.

His position is that every single person on Alderaan, or at least a majority thereof, is guilty of treason and that the Death Star was dispensing their punishment.

Cities get "punished" in war for being part of the enemy. This is a civil war. So you don't need to prove that every single citizen is guilty in a court of law, you idiot.

Mine is that if such is the case rather than Tarkin just being an ass, it is 1.) a judicial operation, not a military one and 2.) one presuming the guilt of the condemned.

Star Wars does not begin with an opening crawl that says "IT IS A TIME OF JUDICIAL ACTIONS', dumb-shit. It begins with an opening crawl that says "IT IS A TIME OF CIVIL WAR". What are you, blind?

The destruction of Alderaan was needless from a military standpoint.

And you know this because of what, exactly? Your intimate knowledge of the state of politics in the Empire at the time?

The planet posed no immediate and imminent threat to the Galactic Empire that necessitated its immediate and total destruction.

Like it or not, cities need not pose an "immediate and imminent threat" in order to be targeted in wartime. Simply being aligned with the enemy has historically been sufficient justification. Now, if you'd simply accept that the US is a giant war criminal nation and hurl your HEIL HITLER inflammatory bullshit rhetoric in that direction as well, fine. Otherwise, blow me.

As far as the canon evidence shows, the treason on Alderaan extended no further than the House of Organa and its immediate supporters. The entire planet was hardly in full revolt. I contend that it was not a military target.

Your contention is worth precisely dick. The planet does not have to be in "full revolt" if its leadership has aligned itself with the enemy.

I think you're missing the point here. We're not arguing that the Empire didn't think it was necessary to destroy Alderaan and everyone on it (more on this in a minute, on the "necessity").

Rather, we're arguing with the contention that the excuses offered to justify it, in order to paint the Empire as just (or even "the lesser evil") compared to the Rebellion, are specious.

Such as the idea that they were forced to destroy the planet because of Rebel sympathizers on it or that the erection of the Planetary Shield forced them to fire the superlaser. And Tarkin made it clear that he never intended to spare the planet if Leia told him the truth. He wanted an effective demonstration!

The reason for destroying Alderaan was to enforce the doctrine of fear, which was the new method of governance for the Galaxy (with the permanent abolishment of the Senate). That a few traitors may have died in the cataclysm was just a side benefit. If the goal was to stop the Rebellion before it began, the plan backfired, since it became a rally-cry for other systems to rebel. If their goal had really been to get Alderaan to surrender, to turn over suspected terrorists, etc, they had other means at their disposal to accomlish this, including means not available to us in our world.

Obviously, the Empire is in power, they "legally" can do whatever they want. They have the technology to make it happen. That's not in question. And once you put aside arguments about the atrocities committed by the Allies in WW2 and US-led coalition forces in Iraq, what more can be said in the Empire's defense?

The fact that real-world political leaders order evil acts, and that real life armies commit atrocities doesn't excuse the Empire's actions. It only makes them more believable villians.

And yes, yes, yes, if we wanted to agree that all morality goes out the window in a time of war, then yes, the Empire is forgiven for blowing up Alderaan, and the Allies are forgiven for all the civilian bombings, etc. But who really believes that? We're talking about acts after the fact and saying they were unnecessary (ie: that other means could have been used to achieve the goals) or immoral.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

I think you're missing the point here. We're not arguing that the Empire didn't think it was necessary to destroy Alderaan and everyone on it (more on this in a minute, on the "necessity").

Yet Alderaan is a major chunk of this argument. Thus, he may choose to engage this chunk only.

Such as the idea that they were forced to destroy the planet because of Rebel sympathizers on it or that the erection of the Planetary Shield forced them to fire the superlaser. And Tarkin made it clear that he never intended to spare the planet if Leia told him the truth. He wanted an effective demonstration!

WHy should he? It is a good demonstration, and it was against a strategic target. And tell me, are you particularly inclined to honor your word made with a traitor?

The reason for destroying Alderaan was to enforce the doctrine of fear, which was the new method of governance for the Galaxy (with the permanent abolishment of the Senate). That a few traitors may have died in the cataclysm was just a side benefit.

Nice that they destroyed a munitions dump.

If the goal was to stop the Rebellion before it began, the plan backfired, since it became a rally-cry for other systems to rebel.

Yeah, it really backfired when the DS got blown up, but they were never planning on that. And a successful attempt to do so would have saved many lives, wouldn't it?

If their goal had really been to get Alderaan to surrender, to turn over suspected terrorists, etc, they had other means at their disposal to accomlish this, including means not available to us in our world.

I've seen your last list. It involves demanding nearly impossible power gradation precisions of the SL and predictor, having Vader do something he didn't/couldn't do at Hoth (where he doesn't even have the brute force option), or assuming Leia is really worth so much (yeah, she's just worth enough her dad allows her on these dangerous missions).

[GeneralTacticus]

Or, as I suggested above, sending a few ISDs in to slag as much of the shield grid as possible before it comes online. It won't be pretty, and you probably won't get everything, but it would weaken the shield at the very least, and make any further attempts at breaking the shield much easier.

[Stofsk]

Or, as I suggested above, sending a few ISDs in to slag as much of the shield grid as possible before it comes online. It won't be pretty, and you probably won't get everything, but it would weaken the shield at the very least, and make any further attempts at breaking the shield much easier.

The problem with that is timing. Depending on such for your military operation to succeed would be risky, and difficult to pull off unless you happen to have good, solid, and reliable intel on the shield's on/off status. It also gives the Alderaanians the initiative (in as much defenders can maintain an initiative) in the sense that they can flick a few switches and put their shield up, while the Imperials would be forced to fight 'when the moment is right' - a moment that may never come.

[EDIT] Welcome to SDnet.

[GeneralTacticus]

Or, as I suggested above, sending a few ISDs in to slag as much of the shield grid as possible before it comes online. It won't be pretty, and you probably won't get everything, but it would weaken the shield at the very least, and make any further attempts at breaking the shield much easier.

The problem with that is timing. Depending on such for your military operation to succeed would be risky, and difficult to pull off unless you happen to have good, solid, and reliable intel on the shield's on/off status. It also gives the Alderaanians the initiative (in as much defenders can maintain an initiative) in the sense that they can flick a few switches and put their shield up, while the Imperials would be forced to fight 'when the moment is right' - a moment that may never come.

Well, I'm sure the Empire would have ways of figuring out where the shield projectors were - use Vader or Palpatine's Force pwoers, if need be.

As for knowing when the shield is off - really, how hard could that be? The rebels hitting the DSII were expecting to get readings from the sensors on their fighters, and if all else failed, the Empire could simply send a few people down to the surface with a similar sensor suite and signal when the shield was off. Considering the speed of hyperdrive, you could have a fleet of ISDs waiting a few star systems over, and have them drop in almost instantaneously.

Finally, wrt to the risk - really, what risk is there for the Empire? At worst, Alderaan's shield goes up before they can do enough damage, and the Empire lays seige to the planet, or (more likely) sends the Death Star in. At best, the shield goes down, and the Empire occupies the planet, saving a hell of a lot of lives that would have otherwise been lost when the DS destroyed the planet.

Of course, the whole point is moot if Alderaan's shield is usually up anyway, but then the argument that the shield was raised specfically against the DS as an act of defiance rather falls flat...

[Illuminatus Primus]

Yes. The place of the DK books in the "hierarchy" have been discussed long since now. Wayne's covered it pretty well in fact on his site, I believe. Ask him.

No, Kaz is right, and you are wrong.

Maybe there's a reason that Poe himself is the one who started "The New SW Canon" thread stickied on this very board. His website has old info. Its based on policy before Chee described his new ideas.

And upon reading it - it seems authorial inventions, sans items like "names" are not G canon, even if the greater concept is incorporated.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Well, I'm sure the Empire would have ways of figuring out where the shield projectors were - use Vader or Palpatine's Force pwoers, if need be.

Force powers don't always work with precision over long ranges. It is not a real substitute for sensors.

As for knowing when the shield is off - really, how hard could that be? The rebels hitting the DSII were expecting to get readings from the sensors on their fighters, and if all else failed, the Empire could simply send a few people down to the surface with a similar sensor suite and signal when the shield was off. Considering the speed of hyperdrive, you could have a fleet of ISDs waiting a few star systems over, and have them drop in almost instantaneously.

You have only a few seconds before the shield would start coming on. It is a race between the gunners and the shield operators, and they have a huge advantage. This is a Core World with a first-rate sheild, so they might be picking you up over HSI (Hyperspace signal intercept), in that case they might have minutes of warning. Alternatively, they could acquire you on your Cronau burst on re-entry and raise shields even as you slow back to normal. Either way, they have the initiative advantage.

Finally, wrt to the risk - really, what risk is there for the Empire? At worst, Alderaan's shield goes up before they can do enough damage, and the Empire lays seige to the planet, or (more likely) sends the Death Star in. At best, the shield goes down, and the Empire occupies the planet, saving a hell of a lot of lives that would have otherwise been lost when the DS destroyed the planet.

It is enormously unlikely they'd be able to acquire, send the orders, and fire on enough of the shields to disable enough of them.