OK, I know that Saxton didn't authorize this in HIS ITW

[Stofsk]

It's a case of 'Beat the Clock' - if the Imps can hit Alderaan before the latter can react quick enough to keep their HTL blasts off the surface. It wouldn't be as easy as you make it out to be.

Vader and other force users aren't guaranteed to locate the shield projectors, but why would they need to? ISDs have numerous sensors that can do the same. Vader is busy torturing his daughter at the time anyway.

As for stationing a few ISDs nearby in another system, and have them jump in when the shield is down, do you think such a thing would go unnoticed by the Alderaanians? As for the time it takes to turn the shield on, well, I don't know the answer to that other than ESB, which seemed to suggest a very short reaction time needed. Of course, that was a theatre shield, not a planetary shield...

[GeneralTacticus]

Well, I'm sure the Empire would have ways of figuring out where the shield projectors were - use Vader or Palpatine's Force pwoers, if need be.

Force powers don't always work with precision over long ranges. It is not a real substitute for sensors.

No, but it could tell the Empire where to start looking at the very least. Besides, how exactly is Alderaan going to hide the locations of it's shield projectors, especially if they ever actually turn it on? The energy readings alone would be something of a giveaway.

As for knowing when the shield is off - really, how hard could that be? The rebels hitting the DSII were expecting to get readings from the sensors on their fighters, and if all else failed, the Empire could simply send a few people down to the surface with a similar sensor suite and signal when the shield was off. Considering the speed of hyperdrive, you could have a fleet of ISDs waiting a few star systems over, and have them drop in almost instantaneously.

You have only a few seconds before the shield would start coming on. It is a race between the gunners and the shield operators, and they have a huge advantage. This is a Core World with a first-rate sheild, so they might be picking you up over HSI (Hyperspace signal intercept), in that case they might have minutes of warning. Alternatively, they could acquire you on your Cronau burst on re-entry and raise shields even as you slow back to normal. Either way, they have the initiative advantage.

And yet you yourself provided a quote earlier on which stated that planetary shields take several minutes to activate. More than enough time for the Imperial ships to get off at least one salvo at the shield projectors on the ground.

As for detection of the ISDs while they're still inbound - given the canon speeds of hyperdrive, the ISDs could be sitting in the enxt solar system and the shield operators would get no more than 10 seconds warning or so.

Finally, wrt to the risk - really, what risk is there for the Empire? At worst, Alderaan's shield goes up before they can do enough damage, and the Empire lays seige to the planet, or (more likely) sends the Death Star in. At best, the shield goes down, and the Empire occupies the planet, saving a hell of a lot of lives that would have otherwise been lost when the DS destroyed the planet.

It is enormously unlikely they'd be able to acquire, send the orders, and fire on enough of the shields to disable enough of them.

Well, once they know where the projectors are (which would be the most difficult bit), targetting them would be fairly easy - simply keep a simulation running of Alderaan's orbit, rotation, etc, with the projectors marked on it, and have it calculate targetting for attacks at time X for the next few weeks or so. Then wait for the shield to be offline, drop in, and fire away. Even if all you do is leave a single area of the planet unshielded, that's all you need to start landing troops.

[Stofsk]

As for detection of the ISDs while they're still inbound - given the canon speeds of hyperdrive, the ISDs could be sitting in the enxt solar system and the shield operators would get no more than 10 seconds warning or so.

And yet, those ISDs would not go unnoticed. Sensors and Communications are FTL based. That's why Han said "You can relax, I finally lost those Imperials."

[GeneralTacticus]

It's a case of 'Beat the Clock' - if the Imps can hit Alderaan before the latter can react quick enough to keep their HTL blasts off the surface. It wouldn't be as easy as you make it out to be.

I didn't say it would be easy. I said it would be an alternative way of doing things, which would not require the obliteration of Alderaan and everyone on it, and which would pose little material risk for the Empire.

Vader and other force users aren't guaranteed to locate the shield projectors, but why would they need to? ISDs have numerous sensors that can do the same. Vader is busy torturing his daughter at the time anyway.

I wasn't basing my argument on the projectors being located via the Force, merely pointing out that it was a possibility. As you say, there are many other ways to locate them as well.

As for stationing a few ISDs nearby in another system, and have them jump in when the shield is down, do you think such a thing would go unnoticed by the Alderaanians?

I'm sure an excuse could be found for there to be some ISDs near Alderaan - fabricate one, if need be. Alderaan would be have to be ridiculously jumpy to raise the shield every time the Empire moved warships around near their system.

As for the time it takes to turn the shield on, well, I don't know the answer to that other than ESB, which seemed to suggest a very short reaction time needed. Of course, that was a theatre shield, not a planetary shield...

I was basing most of this on Kazuaki's quote, which mentioned a time of "several minutes". As you say, however, we don't know how long it takes for a shield to be brought online.

And yet, those ISDs would not go unnoticed. Sensors and Communications are FTL based. That's why Han said "You can relax, I finally lost those Imperials."

And, again, Alderaan would have no particular reason to suspect that group of ISDs of intending an attack on them, and I somehow doubt that they'd put their shields up every time the Empire moved warships nearby.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

No, but it could tell the Empire where to start looking at the very least. Besides, how exactly is Alderaan going to hide the locations of it's shield projectors, especially if they ever actually turn it on? The energy readings alone would be something of a giveaway.

There's no guarantee of even that. The Force gets really spotty at longer distances. For instance, Vader couldn't feel his son. Then he sees the Hoth report, and suddenly he has a link.

And yet you yourself provided a quote earlier on which stated that planetary shields take several minutes to activate. More than enough time for the Imperial ships to get off at least one salvo at the shield projectors on the ground.

They take a few minutes to ramp up to full power, this is true. What you had not considered is the notion at the power of that shield, if it takes say three minutes to ramp up fully, in the first second alone, the ramp up will be about 5E34 out of 1E37. That's plenty enough to block the thing.

As for detection of the ISDs while they're still inbound - given the canon speeds of hyperdrive, the ISDs could be sitting in the enxt solar system and the shield operators would get no more than 10 seconds warning or so.

That's plenty of time for them to start the ramp up process. There's several seconds due to the Cronau radiation, after which you have to ensure you actually exited in the correct place. Once they hit the button on that monster shield and current starts flowing ... you are out of time.

Well, once they know where the projectors are (which would be the most difficult bit), targetting them would be fairly easy - simply keep a simulation running of Alderaan's orbit, rotation, etc, with the projectors marked on it, and have it calculate targetting for attacks at time X for the next few weeks or so. Then wait for the shield to be offline, drop in, and fire away. Even if all you do is leave a single area of the planet unshielded, that's all you need to start landing troops.

Yet when you exit, you will have to reacquire a nav fix and swing the guns over. And this would only work at most for one generator, whcih would most likely be compensated for by adjacent sections. If you destroyed a section, I bet they won't be lowering the others anytime soon.

What most people seem not to understand is that the shield on Alderaan is almost as much of a monster as the Death Star in its own way. Ordinary tactics that work on lesser opponents don't mean squat to them.

[GeneralTacticus]

There's no guarantee of even that. The Force gets really spotty at longer distances. For instance, Vader couldn't feel his son. Then he sees the Hoth report, and suddenly he has a link.

You'll note that the paragraph you quoted didn't even mention the Force - simply looking for where the huge energy spikes are coming from when the shield is active.

They take a few minutes to ramp up to full power, this is true. What you had not considered is the notion at the power of that shield, if it takes say three minutes to ramp up fully, in the first second alone, the ramp up will be about 5E34 out of 1E37. That's plenty enough to block the thing.



That's plenty of time for them to start the ramp up process. There's several seconds due to the Cronau radiation, after which you have to ensure you actually exited in the correct place. Once they hit the button on that monster shield and current starts flowing ... you are out of time.

Hmmm... true, I suppose. You'd need a lot of ISDs to break through something like that. I suppose it would have to depend on what criteria they follow for turning on the shield - they might have a rule saying "turn it on if there are any warships heading for the system', in which case this wouldn't work, or it might need approval from someone in authority, which could take long enough for the plan to work.

Yet when you exit, you will have to reacquire a nav fix and swing the guns over. And this would only work at most for one generator, whcih would most likely be compensated for by adjacent sections. If you destroyed a section, I bet they won't be lowering the others anytime soon.

I must admit, I've never seen anything about needing to work out where you are after a hyperjump (I've enver had the opportunity to read much of the EU, unfortunately). Exactly how far off from your originally plotted point are you likely to be after a short jump? When I originally proposed this, I'd envisioned the ISDs plotting a course and aiming their guns properly before jumping, and then firing as soon as they came out of hyperspace.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Hmmm... true, I suppose. You'd need a lot of ISDs to break through something like that.

More like an implausible amount. The ISD only puts out about E24J class firepower. Pit that against E34, ramping up to E37?

I suppose it would have to depend on what criteria they follow for turning on the shield - they might have a rule saying "turn it on if there are any warships heading for the system', in which case this wouldn't work, or it might need approval from someone in authority, which could take long enough for the plan to work.

And Tarkin doesn't know that. And if the ships are clearly coming out with guns primed, the shield's certainly going up. When you've got a guilty conscience, you tend to be jumpy. With the proper superluminal sensors, they'd see it coming, and that's the end of it.

I must admit, I've never seen anything about needing to work out where you are after a hyperjump (I've enver had the opportunity to read much of the EU, unfortunately). Exactly how far off from your originally plotted point are you likely to be after a short jump? When I originally proposed this, I'd envisioned the ISDs plotting a course and aiming their guns properly before jumping, and then firing as soon as they came out of hyperspace.

For most purposes just jumping out should be enough - you can see the planet and can immediately make the adjustments you need to land. But for tactical purposes, Thrawn had to use an Interdictor to define the point where his ships were to leave hyperspace for increased accuracy, and it is stated the ship will have "No targetting references" as it arrives. It stands to reason that ships do need to briefly realign. Passing references to "orienting themselves" are also mentioned in Isard's Revenge.

[GeneralTacticus]

Sounds like it probably won't work, then. Oh well, I thought it might be worth a try, and if it was possible, it would certainly have been preferable to just annihilating the whole planet.

As for the number of ISDs - that was a deliberate understatement. I'm aware that you'd need bilions of ISDs firing at once to overwhelm an Alderaan-grade shield; hence my suggestion that it be put out of action before it could be employed.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Sounds like it probably won't work, then.

This idea actually comes a lot closer to workable than the others I've seen so far. See the previous pages.

[Rogue 9]

A high-technology planet known for its banking industry. When the Ralltiir High Council tried to oppose the Empire prior to the Battle of Yavin, the Emperor decided to make the planet an example to other worlds that would defy his will. He sent a brutal Imperial force, led by Lord Tion, to invade and devastate the planet.

Ralltiir is the opening setting of the A New Hope radio dramatization.

Tell me why I can't work up a great wave of sympathy.

Because you're a heartless bastard who thinks that the mass internment of civilians and the destruction of their property over an unarmed disagreement is an excellent way to handle the matter? Where does that quote say armed resistance? You're either drawing unwarranted conclusions or you're a very disturbed individual.

Granted, there was a Rebel cell on Ralltiir, but 1.) you didn't know that, and 2.) that describes a lot of planets. As I recall, the High Council's action, and the reason for the occupation, was the withholding of taxes in protest for other brutal actions in other systems. I could be completely off base, but I think that's it.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Because you're a heartless bastard who thinks that the mass internment of civilians and the destruction of their property over an unarmed disagreement is an excellent way to handle the matter?

By the Empire's standards, certainly. See below. Remember, it was again, the government going against the Empire. Bingo, Valid strategic target designated.

Where does that quote say armed resistance? You're either drawing unwarranted conclusions or you're a very disturbed individual.

I'm suspected possible arms movement, but basically, my sympathy is already halved after I heard the government opposed the Empire. As a banking community, their "opposition" to the Empire implies they might feeding money to the Rebellion, which might be worth even more than sending a few recruits over (fanatics are cheap, weapons for fanatics are not). That's my initial assumption.

Granted, there was a Rebel cell on Ralltiir, but 1.) you didn't know that,

I suspected it.

and 2.) that describes a lot of planets.

I bet they weren't quite as brazen. Besides, even if they were, it is not exactly wrong to pick one or two to make examples out of rather than spanking the whole class. In fact, you might even consider it a kind of mercy, in a sense.

As I recall, the High Council's action, and the reason for the occupation, was the withholding of taxes in protest for other brutal actions in other systems. I could be completely off base, but I think that's it.

Oh, I see. I am feeling grateful for my prudence before doling out my sympathy. You just don't withhold taxes from any superior government and think anything good will come out of it for you.

[Rogue 9]

Yes it is wrong, because you see, such actions are morally reprehensible. If the Empire wouldn't behave in such a manner, they wouldn't have a gigantic resistance movement, would they? You don't get that out of happy citizens. You do get it out of brutally oppressed ones.

[Kurgan]

Yet Alderaan is a major chunk of this argument. Thus, he may choose to engage this chunk only.

Doubtful. Who's supplying the Rebellion with all their stuff? Those planets will need to be blown away as well, if this is the punishment that Alderaan gets. All the weapons we see the Rebels have for the next four years came from somewhere (or are we supposed to assume that Alderaan churned all those out?).

WHy should he? It is a good demonstration, and it was against a strategic target. And tell me, are you particularly inclined to honor your word made with a traitor?

If I were an evil bastard, I would have done the same. I also would have cackled madly afterward. Anything's possible. I will grant him that he acted in character. But if he if I were a man in his position with a conscience, and morals, I would have tried to find a less genocidal "solution."

As far as keeping a promise to a criminal, it's called plea bargaining.
Appeal to the self-preservation (or selfishness, call it what you will) instincts of one criminal to catch more criminals.

Nice that they destroyed a munitions dump.

Check one off the list. How many more to go? Quite the bloody business, this wiping out munitions dumps.

Yeah, it really backfired when the DS got blown up, but they were never planning on that. And a successful attempt to do so would have saved many lives, wouldn't it?

Tarkin not only killed everyone on Alderaan, he killed everyone on board the station, through his negligance, and lost his own life due to over-confidence. What a guy! If the other Regional Govenors are anything like Tarkin, Palpatine's Empire is a really class act. ; )

I've seen your last list. It involves demanding nearly impossible power gradation precisions of the SL and predictor, having Vader do something he didn't/couldn't do at Hoth (where he doesn't even have the brute force option), or assuming Leia is really worth so much (yeah, she's just worth enough her dad allows her on these dangerous missions).

Good point, Vader didn't try to mind trick shield control on Hoth. All he would have needed was a com link visual (at least we've seen him use the Force on people that way). Maybe Rebel intelligence was aware of this power of his?

We're left with the assumption then, that pre-Death Star, Planetary Shields were unstoppable. Somehow, that just doesn't seem believable, unless planetary shields are also something "new" in Star Wars (Naboo didn't have one, or the blockade wouldn't have been necessary). They have all these other weapons. And they have all these other ships armed to the teeth. Hmm....

Did we ever determine what effect the Death Star's Ion Cannons, tractor beams and missiles (is that what was meant by "torpedo spheres?") would do to the shield?

[Rogue 9]

Torpedo spheres are a completely different class of ship/battlestation. They're a forerunner of the Death Star. They're spherical and have 500 proton torpedo tubes in a concave dish, designed to focus on one point of a planetary shield and overload it for a short time.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Anyone want to crack at that the destruction of Alderaan was illegal - Grand Moff Tarkin was operating his battlestation outside his AOR (area of responsibility, ie., the Oversector Outer) and summarily annhiliated a world under the jurisdiction of a different Grand Moff Governor. Jurisdictional problems, anyone? There was clearly no consultation of the Emperor, the Advisors, or the local Moff either.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Torpedo spheres are a completely different class of ship/battlestation. They're a forerunner of the Death Star. They're spherical and have 500 proton torpedo tubes in a concave dish, designed to focus on one point of a planetary shield and overload it for a short time.

And Alderaan's shield seems to be in a completely different class than most planetary shields the Torpedo Sphere was designed to handle (there's a reason to build a more powerful monster like the Death Star right there). Even by WEG rules (which compress everything so small guys have a better chance against big guys than realistic), a Torpedo Sphere stands no chance against Aldie. See my comments on this one on P.12.

[Rogue 9]

Yes, I was answering Kurgan's question about what a torpedo sphere was.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Doubtful. Who's supplying the Rebellion with all their stuff? Those planets will need to be blown away as well, if this is the punishment that Alderaan gets. All the weapons we see the Rebels have for the next four years came from somewhere (or are we supposed to assume that Alderaan churned all those out?).

THe only other major one that immediately comes to mind is the Calamari, and eventually the Emperor the WDs to try to eat their planet, remember? Other planets no doubt contributed something, but probably on a smaller scale (in relation to their worth to the Empire), and they can be dealt with by "normal" methods.

If I were an evil bastard, I would have done the same. I also would have cackled madly afterward. Anything's possible. I will grant him that he acted in character. But if he if I were a man in his position with a conscience, and morals, I would have tried to find a less genocidal "solution."

Tell me when you find one, because so far you ain't getting very close.

As far as keeping a promise to a criminal, it's called plea bargaining. Appeal to the self-preservation (or selfishness, call it what you will) instincts of one criminal to catch more criminals.

A Traitor is in a slightly different class than some petty criminal. And I thought plea bargaining was used when in a Court of Law, the Prosecution thinks it doesn't have quite enough evidence for a certain "kill", so it gives up its "probable" kill for a certain lesser punishment. The process of getting a criminal to testify against his compatriots is a somewhat different process. Of course, I'm not exactly hot on legal stuff.

Check one off the list. How many more to go? Quite the bloody business, this wiping out munitions dumps.

At least there won't be many under these killer ubershields.

Tarkin not only killed everyone on Alderaan, he killed everyone on board the station, through his negligance, and lost his own life due to over-confidence. What a guy! If the other Regional Govenors are anything like Tarkin, Palpatine's Empire is a really class act. ; )

Remember, he was almost right, and if he was right, he would have been the coolest gent this side of the road. There were lots more people to blame in those final critical seconds. Why did, for example, Vader insist on his fixed, parade-ground Vic formation? If he had one of his guys hang back a bit further, he might have been able to cover them against the Falcon. And what the fuck happened to the GCI on the Death Star? They should have seen the fucking MF come in. Yes, I know there is a lot of distortion and jamming, but since Yavin GCI was able to pick up the signals of TIE fighters being scrambled off the Death Star, why wasn't Death Star's GCI working?

Besides, if incompetence is evil, the NR got lots to answer for - 365 trillion deaths in the Vong invasion alone. That incompetence is smaller than evil is the argument you guys use, right?

Good point, Vader didn't try to mind trick shield control on Hoth. All he would have needed was a com link visual (at least we've seen him use the Force on people that way). Maybe Rebel intelligence was aware of this power of his?

Yeah, because those shield operators would get to see him, rather than someone too high up to directly affect the shield operators.

We're left with the assumption then, that pre-Death Star, Planetary Shields were unstoppable. Somehow, that just doesn't seem believable, unless planetary shields are also something "new" in Star Wars (Naboo didn't have one, or the blockade wouldn't have been necessary). They have all these other weapons. And they have all these other ships armed to the teeth. Hmm....

Most planetary shields are breakable. It's just that Aldie's shield is too uber. I'm not even sure if Eclipse superlasers could have done the job. Probably not. It is <E32J going against E37J.

Did we ever determine what effect the Death Star's Ion Cannons, tractor beams and missiles (is that what was meant by "torpedo spheres?") would do to the shield?

Unless you are one of those people who think that ion cannons get free passes through shields, basically the conventional weaponry can't do it.

[Rogue 9]

Question: How do we know the power of Alderaan's shield?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Question: How do we know the power of Alderaan's shield?

Estimated from the power of observed weapon (1E38J) class vs the 0.13 seconds (2-3 frames) we saw Aldie's shield block before collapse. It is actually a bit conservative - for the beam cut off within about five frames of impact, but that's still more than enough to prove my point.

[Kurgan]

Torpedo spheres are a completely different class of ship/battlestation. They're a forerunner of the Death Star. They're spherical and have 500 proton torpedo tubes in a concave dish, designed to focus on one point of a planetary shield and overload it for a short time.

So the prototype Xindi weapon? ; ) (I kidding of course, I realize that Trek stole from wars, not the other way around)

I was reading the "EU" section of the Death Star entry on SW Databank. I realize it might be worthless for this discussion, but it was interesting just the same. That tally puts the human component at around 1.16 million. They mention it carrys a lot of fighters plus some "strike cruisers" (I wonder what those are?). I doesn't mention any missiles this time, but it distinguishes between "laser cannons" and turbolasers (and ion cannons).

[Graeme Dice]

Maybe I just don't like them very much - they caused a Galactic Civil War that killed hundreds of trillions, and I have no doubt we can all agree that their so-called alternative to the Empire stinks in practice.

No, I sincerely doubt that very many people would agree to that at all.

[Graeme Dice]

See Saxton's population analysis.

You'll let me know when Saxton becomes a canon or official source, won't you?

[Graeme Dice]

Do you seriously wish to contend that treason is not worthy of death?

Of course it isn't. There are virtually no crimes that are worthy of death, and working against your own government certainly isn't one of them.

I disagree. Under this game rule, whoever loses fewer citizens "wins":

Wrong. The person who deliberately kills their own civilians is a murderer. The person who doesn't manage to protect their civilians simply didn't manage to protect their own civilians. Any other argument is nothing more than people jerking off to how cool the empire is.

[Graeme Dice]

So, killing traitors is an atrocity?

Yes, it is. That's why countries like South Africa under apartheid and China are considered to be rather poor places to live.

As for influence, any politician is going to use any means in his book to get others to go his way, and if available, that means the Force.

Right, so mind control and brainwashing are valid political tools. Thanks for clearing that up.

What's equally important is the recognition of authority. If you think the government is illegitimate, you don't send Senators. Recognition is an important sign of legitimacy. Got that? Very simple.

No, you send senators to try and keep the empire from killing you all and enslaving your world.

Doesn't matter. They pledged their loyalty to the Imperial government. And they broke it. Honestly, that doesn't speak well of them no matter what the cause.

You really are a drone, aren't you? You are under no obligation to hold yourself to a pledge of loyalty to a corrupt and evil regime.

So when a government official uses his position to spy for the Soviet Union because he likes Communism, the US government is not supposed to feel pissed?

No, according to you, they should torture him to death, then kill his family and everyone else in the neighbourhood where he grew up. After all, that would help maintain order.

If they conmitted acts worthy of it...

And apparently trying to bring down a corrupt, wholly evil, and foul regime is a crime worthy of having all your relatives and your entire planet destroyed.