Germans Demand Queen War Apology

Sam Or I · Post by **Sam Or I** » 2004-10-29 12:02pm

Germans Demand Queen War Apology

The Queen is being urged to apologise to the German people for Allied bombing raids carried out during Second World War.

A major German newspaper piled pressure on the monarch, just days before a state visit, with pictures of the 1945 bombing of Dresden and the headline “Will the Queen finally say sorry?”

The inflammatory move is believed to be part of a greater clamour among German politicians and diplomats to get Britain to apologise.

The demands have outraged ex-servicemen and women across the UK, many of whom risked their lives on a daily basis in the fight against Hitler.

War veterans groups were almost unanimous in their condemnation of the Germans' call for an apology.

Peter Storrar, from the RAF’s 610 Squadron Association, said: “They started it and reaped the whirlwind.

“I remember seeing Liverpool absolutely devastated and it was like that all over Britain.”

Col John Goodsir, vice-chairman of the Air Crew Association, said: “The majority of our members who served in the Second World War would not favour the idea of the Queen saying sorry.”

The Queen, who lived in London during the Blitz, is due to begin a royal visit on Tuesday.

She will attend a charity performance of the Berlin Philharmonic intended to raise cash for the restoration of Dresden Cathedral.

"They started it and reaped the whirlwind"
-Peter Storrar - RAF 610 Squadron Association

The Dresden raids in 1945 claimed about 40,000 German lives.

They were designed to crack German morale with wave upon wave of British and US bombers resulting in firestorms on the ground from which there was no escape.

Supporters say the raids hastened the end of the war, but critics say they may not have been tactically necessary.

http://channels.aolsvc.co.uk/news/artic ... 0009990002

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-10-29 12:03pm

They. Can. Fuck. Off.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-10-29 12:07pm

I find it a tad hypocritical that the people who started the war, introduced the world to industrialized death camps and carried out missile attacks on civilian population centers not to mention the carnage of the Eastern front is asking for an apology from those trying to defeat them.

How about "Be glad you still have a nation that is not under permanent occupation." or "Be glad an eye for an eye was not exacted on your nation for attrocities and death camps."

Zac Naloen · Post by **Zac Naloen** » 2004-10-29 12:12pm

the queen wasn't even the monarch back then O_o

Xenophobe3691 · Post by **Xenophobe3691** » 2004-10-29 12:12pm

If anything, they should ask for an apology from the British shipping Blockade during WWI. That at least was illegal...

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-10-29 12:19pm

they're asking for an apology for getting bombed, despite the fact they're the ones that started the fucking war in the first place? if that doesn't strike me as being massively egotistical i don't know what does. they can fuck themselves with a spiked baseball bat sideways for all i care about them getting an apology.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-10-29 12:35pm

Xenophobe3691 wrote:If anything, they should ask for an apology from the British shipping Blockade during WWI. That at least was illegal...

Illegalities in war are funny things. Gassing Jews was "illegal" too, but no one gave a shit unless you had a vast army to have a say in it.

Wired_Grenadier · Post by **Wired_Grenadier** » 2004-10-29 12:45pm

*shrugs*

UCBooties · Post by **UCBooties** » 2004-10-29 12:54pm

mmm, kind of surprising considering the deep shame most Germans I have met seem to feel when discussing WWII. I was in Hannover and went to a museum with models of the city in 1935, 1945 (totaly fucked up), 1950 and the present. The whole thing was presented as "look at what happens to you when you're an asshole, and you'd better be thankful your enemies were kind enough to rebuild you after slapping you down." I am genuinly surprised that there are current Germans demanding an apology for retaliation against their own atrocites, especialy considering the happy go peacenik attitude that most young Germans have. Then again, that may be the cause of the demand; logic along the lines of "We said sorry, now its your turn." Well, whatever, it's a stupid request that won't be honored, let's hope it fades pretty quickly.

Thinkmarble · Post by **Thinkmarble** » 2004-10-29 01:01pm

Die Zeit wrote: Und wirklich:Bevor die Monarchin zu ihrer vierten deutschen Staatsvisite vom 2. bis zum 4. November deutschen Boden betritt, verbreitet der rechtspopulistische Daily Express die absurde Mär "die Deutschen" verlangten von der Queen "eine Entschuldigung für den Krieg"

Translation wrote: And really: before the queen sets her feet on german ground for her fourth visit of state from the 2nd to the fourth of november the right populistic Daily Express is spreading the absurd fairy tale that "the germans" would demand an "apology for the war"

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2004-10-29 01:10pm

Stravo wrote:I find it a tad hypocritical that the people who started the war, introduced the world to industrialized death camps and carried out missile attacks on civilian population centers not to mention the carnage of the Eastern front is asking for an apology from those trying to defeat them.

How about "Be glad you still have a nation that is not under permanent occupation." or "Be glad an eye for an eye was not exacted on your nation for attrocities and death camps."

As I wrote in an other thread, you can't apply that logic on the entire German people. I somewhat resent these kinds of statements. Adolf Hitler gained his position as Reichskanzler by means of political trickery without ever having gained a political majority in the Reichstag. The highest result the nazis gained in a democratic election was 37 %, which later shrunk to 34 %. Even after Hitler became chancellor, 66 % of the voters showed that they were against the national socialists. I don't think the crimes (the Holocaust, the murder of handicapped, political opponents etc), ordered by Hitler and executed by the Wehrmacht, the Einsatzgruppen, Gestapo and SS was what most Germans wanted or had any knowledge about. I think it's been established that the allied bombing strengthened, not weakened, the support of the nazis. Of course, the accuracy was also an issue. The bombings didn't have a serious impact on the industrial production (still in February 1945, the Germans produced 2,000 tanks, 2,500 heavy machineguns and 25,000 rifles). The oil-industry was very hard hit, as well as the production of synthetic fuel. Although I don't agree with some of the targets for the allied bombings, I wouldn't call it war crimes, although the bombing of Dresden February 13-14 1945 is very, very close of being just that. The city was undefended, was virtually empty of troops and was full of refugees from the east. Of course, that pales in comparison with the war crimes and warfare that was conducted by the German forces both in the West and (especially) in the East.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-10-29 01:11pm

The article seems sparse on the details. It says "a major german newspaper demanded an apology". Ok, so what? Without a name we have no context. Maybe it's a major German tabloid 'newspaper'? Maybe it's a major German newspaper that favours polemic arguments? It says the demand is for an apology by the allies for conducting bombing raids, yet mentions no other target than Dresden; which to my knowledge wasn't tactically necessary (strategically is another ballpark... but even then...). Finally as someone mentioned, the call for an apology is being made of the Queen - who wasn't the monarch of the United Kingdom back then. Hence this entire issue strikes of the absurd.

1) It sounds like it isn't the German people but a distinct minority (fucking hell, it could just be a few writers for all the fuck we know, and the newspaper remains anonymous beyond the vague 'it's a major paper' description), which is hardly indicative of contempory german society.

2) War is hell. Live with it. Get over it.

3) Dresden probably was unnecessary and needlessly brutal, and probably counts as an atrocity. Well, see above. Also, while 40'000 is a lot, over 6 million in the concentration camps is a higher number. The number that ultimately died fighting in the war is even higher.

4) The article is shit. I read it and got little more than one highly weighted opinion.

5) An apology - in the strictest possible sense of the word - needn't say "we're sorry", it could be as simple as "Hey, we had to do what we had to do; sorry we bombed you, but you didn't exactly leave us with any choice." I am thinking of Sheriden's 'apology' in B5 for this.

DocHorror · Post by **DocHorror** » 2004-10-29 02:16pm

Daily Express

That says it all. Its a fucking rag of a news paper. Id believe the National Enquirer before I believed anything relating to public opinion from the shite-bag that is the Express.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2004-10-29 02:21pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:
Xenophobe3691 wrote:If anything, they should ask for an apology from the British shipping Blockade during WWI. That at least was illegal...
Illegalities in war are funny things. Gassing Jews was "illegal" too, but no one gave a shit unless you had a vast army to have a say in it.

I thought hitler made it legal?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-10-29 02:27pm

Xenophobe3691 wrote:If anything, they should ask for an apology from the British shipping Blockade during WWI. That at least was illegal...

Considering what they got up to in Belgium during WW1 I don't think they want to drag up that attempt to conquer Europe either.

salm · Post by **salm** » 2004-10-29 02:29pm

ok, the OP states that a german newspaper demands an appology and people are claiming that we, the germans, are demanding one.

now we know that it was a british newspaper who lied about a demand for an appology.

i therefore conclude that brits are liars. fuck off, esspecially the queen, head of liars.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-10-29 02:40pm

salm wrote:ok, the OP states that a german newspaper demands an appology and people are claiming that we, the germans, are demanding one.

now we know that it was a british newspaper who lied about a demand for an appology.

i therefore conclude that brits are liars. fuck off, esspecially the queen, head of liars.

With all due respect, wrong. Your newspaper Bild came up with an article asking "will the Queen apologise for Dresden?". That, my friend, is outright inflammatory the way I see it and it certainly wasn't a British tabloid that said it.

The answer is "no". Deal with it.

salm · Post by **salm** » 2004-10-29 03:12pm

/

Admiral Valdemar wrote: With all due respect, wrong. Your newspaper Bild came up with an article asking "will the Queen apologise for Dresden?". That, my friend, is outright inflammatory the way I see it and it certainly wasn't a British tabloid that said it.

actually, yes, that was a headline in "bild". after the british tabloid had claimed that german diplomats and politicians were demanding an appology.

in fact the "bild" article was about the daily express statement.

here´s the article in bild online:

link to leading bullshit tabloid

send it through some online translator if you want.

The answer is "no". Deal with it.

how did you conclude that i´m not dealing with it? how do you conclude that i´m not happy with the fact that hitler germany got bombed by the allies?

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-10-29 03:16pm

The "deal with it" comment wasn't directed personally, it was towards those that are making such a big deal of this as is evidenced by this storm in a tea cup. Typical media.

salm · Post by **salm** » 2004-10-29 03:18pm

<edit>the article does not demand an appology but i´ll admit that the headline was probably worded like this in order to be misinerpreted because bild is a worthless tabloid. </edit>

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2004-10-29 03:45pm

I was going to comment that maybe the Germans should apologise for bombing London first....

.... But then I saw the post about it being a fraud.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2004-10-29 03:45pm

Has anyone even read Thinkmarble's post?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-10-29 03:51pm

Darth_Zod wrote:they're asking for an apology for getting bombed, despite the fact they're the ones that started the fucking war in the first place? if that doesn't strike me as being massively egotistical i don't know what does. they can fuck themselves with a spiked baseball bat sideways for all i care about them getting an apology.

NTM the fact that they also bombed out English cities.

Fuck 'em.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-10-29 03:52pm

Master of Ossus wrote: NTM the fact that they also bombed out English cities.

Fuck 'em.

They bombed the Queen's house, maybe she should send them a bill.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2004-10-29 03:57pm

People, we're talking about 'Bild' here. When people talk about Bild reporting a murder, the first headline we envision is usually 'Bild first to interview the victim'. So much for their credibility.
Nevertheless, that article salm linked to was abominable.