Powell comments on Taiwan's Sovereignty

[arctic_series]

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiap ... sia.powell.

"Taiwan is not independent. It does not enjoy sovereignty as a nation, and that remains our policy, our firm policy," Powell told Phoenix TV.


meanwhile, realistically speaking... who thinks taiwan's independence will ever happen ? /me thinks it's as good as dead ever since it's conception.

[StimNeuro]

404'ed

[Ma Deuce]

404'ed

Here is the article.

Here is a more recent one.

[arctic_series]

bah damn those long links..

[Aaron]

That's pretty good. They don't support the Tawainese wish to be independent, but they'll sell them arms. Nice way to treat an ally.

[Ma Deuce]

That's pretty good. They don't support the Tawainese wish to be independent, but they'll sell them arms. Nice way to treat an ally.

Of course, the US support of the "One China" policy is only to keep the PRC happy. I think we both know how the US would respond if China ever attempted to conquer Taiwan.

[Aaron]

Of course, the US support of the "One China" policy is only to keep the PRC happy. I think we both know how the US would respond if China ever attempted to conquer Taiwan.

I would hope they will respond. But I can't help but feel that the USA is being cowardly by not supporting Tawain independence.

[arctic_series]

but then again not all of taiwan wants independence, the taiwanese people have little to gain where the administration would have the world to gain if independence were to be granted to taiwan.

is an independence fueled by political gains of a few legitimate or even moral ?

[The Kernel]

Of course, the US support of the "One China" policy is only to keep the PRC happy. I think we both know how the US would respond if China ever attempted to conquer Taiwan.

I would hope they will respond. But I can't help but feel that the USA is being cowardly by not supporting Tawain independence.

No, that is exactly the way we should be treating them. The problem here is that if the US declares that they recognize Taiwan's independence, they will be forcing the issue with the Chinese who will have to respond in order to save face. This response could come from something as "small" as a trade war or as big as a military attempt to retake Taiwan. Taiwan already has independence from a functional standpoint so why press the matter?

[Aaron]

No, that is exactly the way we should be treating them. The problem here is that if the US declares that they recognize Taiwan's independence, they will be forcing the issue with the Chinese who will have to respond in order to save face. This response could come from something as "small" as a trade war or as big as a military attempt to retake Taiwan. Taiwan already has independence from a functional standpoint so why press the matter?

I don't think China would risk a war with the USA. They don't have the means to invade Tawain, let alone defeat the US Carrier Group that would certainly be sent to defend the island.

As for pressing the matter. The USA is supposed to be a bastion of democracy. And one of the reasons currently being spouted for liberating Iraq was to spread democracy and free the Iraqi people. Well currently the Tawainese may be living in fear of mainland China. So wouldn't recognizing them bring them increased freedom? As well it might force the UN to recognise them as a country and offer them membership.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Of course, the US support of the "One China" policy is only to keep the PRC happy. I think we both know how the US would respond if China ever attempted to conquer Taiwan.

I would hope they will respond. But I can't help but feel that the USA is being cowardly by not supporting Tawain independence.

Do you know how the politics of the region work? If the US supported Taiwanese independence, China would almost certainly consider it an act of war.

If there's one thing we should have learned from Bush's apology fiasco, it's that things work differently over there.

[The Kernel]

I don't think China would risk a war with the USA. They don't have the means to invade Tawain, let alone defeat the US Carrier Group that would certainly be sent to defend the island.

I certainly hope they wouldn't, but a shooting war is not the only way that China could cause harm to the US and our interests.

As for the carrier group, I'm not a military expert, but I imagine that China does have the ability to hit Taiwan with a nuclear weapon and there might be very little the US could do about it. I doubt very much that we would be willing to sacrifice Japan and South Korea over China trying to bitchslap Taiwan. Besides, even if we WOULD respond with ruthless force, I wouldn't put it past the Chinese to do something stupid if they were backed into a corner and feeling humiliated.

As for pressing the matter. The USA is supposed to be a bastion of democracy. And one of the reasons currently being spouted for liberating Iraq was to spread democracy and free the Iraqi people. Well currently the Tawainese may be living in fear of mainland China. So wouldn't recognizing them bring them increased freedom? As well it might force the UN to recognise them as a country and offer them membership.

Oh come on dude, I know you don't REALLY believe that shit do you? If we were such a bastion of Democracy, how come we still support Saudi Arabia (one of the most ruthless and socially backwards regimes in the world)? The US likes to use the "Democracy" catchphrase because it sounds good, but it has little to do with our international policy.

[Aaron]

Do you know how the politics of the region work? If the US supported Taiwanese independence, China would almost certainly consider it an act of war.

If there's one thing we should have learned from Bush's apology fiasco, it's that things work differently over there.

Actually the politics of China and that region baffle me. They may consider it an act of war. But if the USA backs up Taiwan I really don't see how China can win. Although I can understand why the USA would not want to risk it.

What Bush apology fiasco?

[Aaron]

As for the carrier group, I'm not a military expert, but I imagine that China does have the ability to hit Taiwan with a nuclear weapon and there might be very little the US could do about it. I doubt very much that we would be willing to sacrifice Japan and South Korea over China trying to bitchslap Taiwan. Besides, even if we WOULD respond with ruthless force, I wouldn't put it past the Chinese to do something stupid if they were backed into a corner and feeling humiliated.

Well China doesn't reeally have the naval means to challenge a Carrier Group. Their navy is small and mostly out of date. Although they are modernizing at a rapid rate. With considerable help from the French I might add. They could try and overwhelm the groups AEGIS defenses with a massive swarm of missiles and aricraft, but this system was diesigned to defend against such a possibility. If I remember right, AEGIS can track and engage over 200 individual targets at once.

Their sub force is a joke. Most of their SSK's are obselete and their SSN's are very noisy. They wouldn't stand a chance againt the groups ASW aircraft or the US SSN's that are usually part of a group. The Chinese don't even have thew Naval assets to land a large enough force on Taiwan to defeat their army.

They coulds always resort to nukes though.

Oh come on dude, I know you don't REALLY believe that shit do you? If we were such a bastion of Democracy, how come we still support Saudi Arabia (one of the most ruthless and socially backwards regimes in the world)? The US likes to use the "Democracy" catchphrase because it sounds good, but it has little to do with our international policy.

Your right. I was not entirely serious. But given the new reasons for the Iraqi war. Shouldn't the USA be applying that to Taiwan, Saudi Arbia and every other shithole, or oppressed country on the planet?

[Ma Deuce]

They coulds always resort to nukes though.

Only if they want to risk being subjected to The Shep Solution™. I don't think even the PRC is stupid enough to commit suicide just to save face...

[The Kernel]

Well China doesn't reeally have the naval means to challenge a Carrier Group. Their navy is small and mostly out of date. Although they are modernizing at a rapid rate. With considerable help from the French I might add. They could try and overwhelm the groups AEGIS defenses with a massive swarm of missiles and aricraft, but this system was diesigned to defend against such a possibility. If I remember right, AEGIS can track and engage over 200 individual targets at once.

Their sub force is a joke. Most of their SSK's are obselete and their SSN's are very noisy. They wouldn't stand a chance againt the groups ASW aircraft or the US SSN's that are usually part of a group. The Chinese don't even have thew Naval assets to land a large enough force on Taiwan to defeat their army.

I'm familiar with the naval power of China, but give the distance I was more thinking about either an airstrike or simply an SLBM/ICBM strike. Despite the possibility of US retaliation, I wouldn't put it past China to use nukes in such a scenario thinking that the US wouldn't respond in kind. They may even be right, I have no idea how the US could respond to such a move.

Your right. I was not entirely serious. But given the new reasons for the Iraqi war. Shouldn't the USA be applying that to Taiwan, Saudi Arbia and every other shithole, or oppressed country on the planet?

If Bush was actually serious, yes indeed. The fact that he's not and that his entire doctrine is basically glorified economic imperialism means that the US will only be "liberating" countries it is convenient for us to liberate.

[Aaron]

Only if they want to risk being subjected to The Shep Solution™. I don't think even the PRC is stupid enough to commit suicide just to save face...

Exactly. I believe the USA's policy is to retaliate in kind if their enemy's use NBC weapons against them or their allies.

[The Kernel]

They coulds always resort to nukes though.

Only if they want to risk being subjected to The Shep Solution™. I don't think even the PRC is stupid enough to commit suicide just to save face...

It may not be suicide, you really think that the US would risk Japan, South Korea and even an ICBM strike inside the mainland US for Taiwan? I tend to doubt it.

[The Kernel]

Exactly. I believe the USA's policy is to retaliate in kind if their enemy's use NBC weapons against them or their allies.

Such platitudes may not hold up when faced with the possibility that avenging Taiwan would cost you two of your most important eastern allies as well as possible nuclear attacks on your home soil. At the very least you will have totally fucked the world economy and killed millions of people all to avenge a small island that most people in the US couldn't point to on a map. Realistically, I would think a president would have no problem hanging the Taiwanese out to dry if the bombs had already fallen.

[SirNitram]

Your right. I was not entirely serious. But given the new reasons for the Iraqi war. Shouldn't the USA be applying that to Taiwan, Saudi Arbia and every other shithole, or oppressed country on the planet?

Yes. It's completely and totally hypocritical to claim the new reasons for invading Iraq and not do anything(And indeed, allying with) other oppressive regimes. It is, however, clear that nothing will be done. This is a large reason why the bullshit of 'Support democracy, free the oppressed!' pisses me off; it's an eleventh hour asspull that has nothing to do with reality.

[Aaron]

Such platitudes may not hold up when faced with the possibility that avenging Taiwan would cost you two of your most important eastern allies as well as possible nuclear attacks on your home soil. At the very least you will have totally fucked the world economy and killed millions of people all to avenge a small island that most people in the US couldn't point to on a map. Realistically, I would think a president would have no problem hanging the Taiwanese out to dry if the bombs had already fallen.

Your most likely right. However the USA is going to have to deal with China sooner or later. It might be better to get it over with now and be done with it. Although their current occupation in Iraq is severely depleting their military resources.

[The Kernel]

Your most likely right. However the USA is going to have to deal with China sooner or later. It might be better to get it over with now and be done with it. Although their current occupation in Iraq is severely depleting their military resources.

China will deal with itself eventually, one way or the other. They are in somewhat of a rut right now politically and socially, but give the grip the information age has taken on the Chinese populance and the widespread secularism, the totalitarian Chinese government will fall sooner or later. It really is only a matter of time, and it is FAR preferable for the region if we are not the ones responsible. It's containment while we hope for a political shift.

[Aaron]

China will deal with itself eventually, one way or the other. They are in somewhat of a rut right now politically and socially, but give the grip the information age has taken on the Chinese populance and the widespread secularism, the totalitarian Chinese government will fall sooner or later. It really is only a matter of time, and it is FAR preferable for the region if we are not the ones responsible. It's containment while we hope for a political shift.

Good point. At least this way few lives will be lost in the shift.

[HemlockGrey]

Fuck you, Powell.

Taiwan *is* an independent nation for all intents and purposes, and it will never, ever reunify with the ChiComs unless the Red Star is raised over the smouldering ruins of the island. The only reason not to recognize this is to keep good relations with the wonderful lovely authoritarian Chinese government.

[Ma Deuce]

Fuck you, Powell.

Don't blame Powell: This has been the official policy of the US government since Nixon's administration...