Why did Vader turn up on an ordinary ISD in ROTJ?

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2004-10-29 10:02pm

I forgot, while we could go pile through the lists of SSDs, here's some that I know of.

There's the Executor from RotJ.
There's an SSD in X-Wing vs TIE Fighter: Balance of Power expansion.
There's an SSD in Rogue Squadron III: Rebel Strike
The Lusankya on Coruscant.
The Iron Fist later taken by Zsinj
The unfinished SSD destroyed during Zsinj's reign.
There are at least three in the Black Fleet.

Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2004-10-30 02:00am

Saxton has a listing of several SSDs as well.

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2004-10-30 02:33am

Let's see, the Guardian from the Battle of Ebaq 9 in Destiny's Way, as well as the SSD Pellaeon's using that, in a glaring continuity gap, doesn't get mentioned or appear in the following book, Force Heretic I (though I will admit that it is indeed possible that the Vong took it out during their swarming of Bastion).

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2004-10-30 08:16am

This is explained in Shadows of the Empire. Vader had to 'motivate' the build team on DS2 for Palpys little surprise, so it was thought better to take an ISD so as not to tip of rebel spies that something was afoot with a ship that Vader was known to use.

Stroika · Post by **Stroika** » 2004-11-04 11:15am

Cal Wright wrote:In this case, based purely on speculation coupled with evidence supported by what we know in RotJ, the Emperor, I assume, set it all up so that people would not know he was gone from Coruscant, and that the Rebels really do think they have broken into a major secret. That being not just the DS II in a vulnerable state, but the Emperor over seeing final construction.

Except that somehow the people on Coruscant do know he's gone (and dead) because they are celebrating Palpatine's downfall by tearing down statues of him.

The sequence of celebrations on various planets at the end of ROTJ:SE strongly suggests to me that they are happening simultaneously with the party on Endor. That means they know he's dead which suggests they knew he was absent.

Perhaps they didn't know Palpatine had left Coruscant but were made aware of it when the news of his demise broke out? I don't think so. In fact I think the celebration sequences are just an example of SW messing around with time for dramatic effect. The in-universe answer is (I would say) there is no way anybody but those on either side with immediate contact with events above Endor would know the Emperor was dead. Consider:

(1) Presumably the vast majority of the galaxy's inhabitants (and a fortiori those on Coruscant) don't know about DSII (d'uh), because of a successful news blackout operation.
(2) Presumably any alliance ships still at Sullust (or Tucitus or Luvy) do know about the death of the Emperor.
(3) Presumably senior commanders in the Imperial Navy know although I guess the whole operation could have been kept secret from the rest of the fleet. Mind you a SSD has just been destroyed. Could they not know?
(4) Presumably (not so sure about this one) the Alliance had no safe way of broadcasting propaganda to the Galaxy's core worlds (or anywhere?). If the Empire can control knowledge of the Death Star they can control knowledge of its destruction.
(5) Therefore the rest of the Galaxy doesn't know about the Death Star nor about the death of the Emperor.

On (4) perhaps it was possible for the Alliance to broadcast to the whole Galaxy - (am really bluffing here, I have no idea of the physiscs of SW communications) - announcing the Emperor's death. The only reason they wouldn't have done this before is because the signal could be traced. That is the best way to save the appearances of the film I think.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2004-11-04 11:30am

In ANH, one of the rebel leaders welcomes Leia and says "When we heard about Alderaan, we feared the worst." This was on a desolate moon hiding the main rebel base.

Thus, I´m pretty sure news can travel fast, even when communication needs to be done in secret.

Stroika · Post by **Stroika** » 2004-11-04 12:20pm

VT-16 wrote:In ANH, one of the rebel leaders welcomes Leia and says "When we heard about Alderaan, we feared the worst." This was on a desolate moon hiding the main rebel base.

Thus, I´m pretty sure news can travel fast, even when communication needs to be done in secret.

Assuming it *was* kept secret. The Empire destroyed Alderaan precisely so everybody would no about the Death Star's firepower. The rebels on Yavin IV could easily have learnt about the destruction of Alderaan from the Galactic equivalent of CNN. Both sides would have an interest in letting everybody know about the destruction of of a rebellious planet. On the other hand the Empire would definitely want to keep news of the death of Palpatine ect ect under wraps. The question is thus whether the Alliance can get the information out despite that.

I don't think the quote from ANH proves anything. Even if Alderaan's destruction had been kept secret from the galaxy at large the rebels on Yavin IV presumably had some kind of communication with Alderann. "A communications break down can mean only one thing..." Or two things now there is a new power in the galaxy.

NRS Guardian · Post by **NRS Guardian** » 2004-11-04 01:41pm

Stroika wrote:Except that somehow the people on Coruscant do know he's gone (and dead) because they are celebrating Palpatine's downfall by tearing down statues of him.

The sequence of celebrations on various planets at the end of ROTJ:SE strongly suggests to me that they are happening simultaneously with the party on Endor. That means they know he's dead which suggests they knew he was absent.

Perhaps they didn't know Palpatine had left Coruscant but were made aware of it when the news of his demise broke out? I don't think so. In fact I think the celebration sequences are just an example of SW messing around with time for dramatic effect. The in-universe answer is (I would say) there is no way anybody but those on either side with immediate contact with events above Endor would know the Emperor was dead.

On (4) perhaps it was possible for the Alliance to broadcast to the whole Galaxy - (am really bluffing here, I have no idea of the physiscs of SW communications) - announcing the Emperor's death. The only reason they wouldn't have done this before is because the signal could be traced. That is the best way to save the appearances of the film I think.

I think it was one of the wraith squadron books that talked about the Coruscant celebration and how the Empire went all Tienamen Square on the celebrators. According to the book reform-minded slicers got a hold of footage that showed the DSII blowing up and I think some sort of report of the Emperor's demise. Which they then desiminated to the people of Coruscant through a pirated broadcast. Knowing this it becomes a question of where did this footage and report come from.
My theory is that the Rebels put together some sort of report or broadcast and sent it to insurgents, collaborators, allies, and such as soon as the DS was destroyed and told them to get out the word and it could be that the people that were sent this broadcast either hired or used their own slicers to pirate the HoloNet to send it out across the galaxy without being caught or because of the importance even though it'd mean being caught.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-11-04 06:38pm

Here's a wild-ass idea... maybe (for propaganda purposes of course) the Emperor ordered a LIVE BROADCAST of the "Rebel Execution" once the battle started (perhaps cameras onboard some of the Imperial ships or even the DS2 itself). These were being broadcast to the rest of the galaxy to show "what happens to traitors."

Then when things go awry, they somehow aren't able to cut the broadcast before the Death Star is shown blowing up!

The populance goes "Wooot!" and starts tossing Stormtroopers around and pulling down statues. Some of weaker military leaders (or those with ambitions elsewhere) jump ship and all hell breaks loose...

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2004-11-04 09:23pm

Stroika wrote:
Except that somehow the people on Coruscant do know he's gone (and dead) because they are celebrating Palpatine's downfall by tearing down statues of him.

The sequence of celebrations on various planets at the end of ROTJ:SE strongly suggests to me that they are happening simultaneously with the party on Endor. That means they know he's dead which suggests they knew he was absent.

So your saying it's impossible for him to sneak off of a planet which he somehow deceived while the Lusankya was built on it's surface to over see the trap laid for the final destruction of the Rebellion?!? That's just ludicrous. It's obvious once the Death Star II was destroyed and the Rebels knew he was there, they sent word across the galaxy.

Perhaps they didn't know Palpatine had left Coruscant but were made aware of it when the news of his demise broke out? I don't think so. In fact I think the celebration sequences are just an example of SW messing around with time for dramatic effect. The in-universe answer is (I would say) there is no way anybody but those on either side with immediate contact with events above Endor would know the Emperor was dead.

That makes absolutely no sense.

Consider:

(1) Presumably the vast majority of the galaxy's inhabitants (and a fortiori those on Coruscant) don't know about DSII (d'uh), because of a successful news blackout operation.
(2) Presumably any alliance ships still at Sullust (or Tucitus or Luvy) do know about the death of the Emperor.
(3) Presumably senior commanders in the Imperial Navy know although I guess the whole operation could have been kept secret from the rest of the fleet. Mind you a SSD has just been destroyed. Could they not know?
(4) Presumably (not so sure about this one) the Alliance had no safe way of broadcasting propaganda to the Galaxy's core worlds (or anywhere?). If the Empire can control knowledge of the Death Star they can control knowledge of its destruction.
(5) Therefore the rest of the Galaxy doesn't know about the Death Star nor about the death of the Emperor.

Except for the transmission of the destruction is sent via holonet not to mention the transmissions of the Imperial Navy herself calling for a retreat from Endor.

On (4) perhaps it was possible for the Alliance to broadcast to the whole Galaxy - (am really bluffing here, I have no idea of the physiscs of SW communications) - announcing the Emperor's death. The only reason they wouldn't have done this before is because the signal could be traced. That is the best way to save the appearances of the film I think.

Sure, whatever man. BTW, holonet is instantaneous. Palpatine has a conversation with Vader from half way across the galaxy in ESB. Same thing in TPM and AotC. No one knew Palpatine was gone. He couldn't let too much out so that the Rebels really thought they had some super secret found.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2004-11-05 02:37pm

Cal Wright wrote:[
So your saying it's impossible for him to sneak off of a planet which he somehow deceived while the Lusankya was built on it's surface to over see the trap laid for the final destruction of the Rebellion?!? That's just ludicrous. It's obvious once the Death Star II was destroyed and the Rebels knew he was there, they sent word across the galaxy.

The Lusankya wasn't built on the surface of courscant it wa s built at fondor and lander on courscant on a repulsorlift cradle.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2004-11-05 02:56pm

Cal Wright wrote:I forgot, while we could go pile through the lists of SSDs, here's some that I know of.

There's the Executor from RotJ.
There's an SSD in X-Wing vs TIE Fighter: Balance of Power expansion.
There's an SSD in Rogue Squadron III: Rebel Strike
The Lusankya on Coruscant.
The Iron Fist later taken by Zsinj
The unfinished SSD destroyed during Zsinj's reign.
There are at least three in the Black Fleet.

Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

The thing about the EU claims of so few Imperial Command Ships, is it's contradicted by the canon. If there was only one active at the time of RotJ as the EU claimed, why was Han so doubting about the possibility of Vader being aboard?

"Vader's aboard that ship, I can sense him..."
"You're just being jittery Luke, just because that's the flagship of Death Squadron, the only ship of its kind, the one Vader used to run us out of Hoth... wait... Holy shit! Run!"

The canon overrules the EU. There are lots of ships like the Excecutor.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2004-11-05 03:01pm

Even if there is only 3 Executor-Class ships it would justify Han's statement. Of course I see it as Luke shut up you making everyone nervious!

There are lots of command ship does imply that there are several Executors floating around out there.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2004-11-05 03:04pm

Isolder74 wrote:Even if there is only 3 Executor-Class ships it would justify Han's statement. Of course I see it as Luke shut up you making everyone nervious!

There are lots of command ship does imply that there are several Executors floating around out there.

I think the only ones on Saxton's list that were known to the rebels at that time were the Excecutor and the Reaper...

Post by **NecronLord** » 2004-11-05 03:09pm

Ah, wait, there was also the HIMS Guardian.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-11-10 12:12am

"Don't get jittery Luke, there's a lot of command ships."

Wasn't that his actual line in the movie?

Of course I suppose "command ships" don't have to all be Executors, but the Executor is explicitly called a command ship in the same movie.