Luke's power..

[Trytostaydead]

I am confused at the constant limitations and wussifying of Luke throughout the various books. In Shadows of the Empire, Vader himself was astonished at the raw potential of his son that made him giddy with pride. In the Empire Strikes Back, Palpatine feared Luke, one Jedi, after wiping out their entire order.

Yet time and again, Luke is often brought straight to the edge of death and brought back by someone else or a group of others. Is it because say, people like Joruus C'boath was more trained in the Force? The Darkside can just pound the Light? Luke's a pansy? What?

[Lord Pounder]

Bad writting pure and simple. The writters of the EU had no consencus on what a Jedi could do so Jedi powers fluctuate to whatever suits the plot.

[Cal Wright]

Read Luceno's Cloak of Deception. I might be a Luceno fan wanker, but that book single handedly was far better then the ones he wrote in the NJO. There the Jedi are more aligned with what your shown to believe.

[Jean Paul]

People get the "whiny pussy-ass farmboy" image of Luke in their heads and can't get it out. It becomes like a brainbug of sorts.

I think that's most of what it boils down to.

[Praxis]

I am confused at the constant limitations and wussifying of Luke throughout the various books. In Shadows of the Empire, Vader himself was astonished at the raw potential of his son that made him giddy with pride. In the Empire Strikes Back, Palpatine feared Luke, one Jedi, after wiping out their entire order.

Yet time and again, Luke is often brought straight to the edge of death and brought back by someone else or a group of others. Is it because say, people like Joruus C'boath was more trained in the Force? The Darkside can just pound the Light? Luke's a pansy? What?

Luke became wussified in NJO.

The problem was, it was hard to decide who was right. Kyp was a jerk and on the verge of turning to the dark side (though he was doing what should be done), which made it hard to agree with him, while Luke was worried about his students, had the best intentions, etc...and thought they would all go to the dark side of they attacked mass murderers

[Darth Garden Gnome]

People get the "whiny pussy-ass farmboy" image of Luke in their heads and can't get it out. It becomes like a brainbug of sorts.

I think that's most of what it boils down to.

Gah, that was ANH. By ROTJ he was a rock solid badass (see the black cloak? BADASS).

OK, so he took a stroll down hippie lane when he surrendered to Vader without a fight, and told the Emperor he wouldn't fight, and all that good stuff; but he ended up kicking all their asses anyways. C'mon, he Force-choked a gammorean guard and tried to fry Jabba's ass before getting dropped into the pit. Later he blows up the entire fuck damn skiff when he fires the gun.

By ROTJ, Luke's no sissy. He's not a maniacal raving batshit looney murderer, but he's at least grown a pair.

Though one naturally expects for all of that to float gracefully over an EU writer's head.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

In some novels, Luke is the über Jedi. For instance, in The Courtship of Princess Leia he pilots the Millenium Falcon so well that Han Solo said he'd never seen anyone fly a ship like that before. He uses the Force to act as pilot, co-pilot, and both gunners while operating all of the ship's systems perfectly. In The Crystal Star he's able to change his appearance to look like some bearded guy and was able to control who was able to see his true self. Han didn't like the bearded guy's look, so Luke let him see his true form. And of course in Dark Empire Luke turns into a badass Dark Jedi. I think there's other stuff out there that shows how powerful he is. But then again, there's your fair share of novels that make him look weak.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

OK, so he took a stroll down hippie lane when he surrendered to Vader without a fight, and told the Emperor he wouldn't fight, and all that good stuff; but he ended up kicking all their asses anyways.

I always thought it took more self-control to hold himself back then to give in to his feelings and fight. And I also thought it was very dignified the way he said he was a Jedi like his father once was. He sacrificed all of that power he would have had if he took Vader's place to uphold his beliefs.

[Agent Fisher]

In some novels, Luke is the über Jedi. For instance, in The Courtship of Princess Leia he pilots the Millenium Falcon so well that Han Solo said he'd never seen anyone fly a ship like that before. He uses the Force to act as pilot, co-pilot, and both gunners while operating all of the ship's systems perfectly. In The Crystal Star he's able to change his appearance to look like some bearded guy and was able to control who was able to see his true self. Han didn't like the bearded guy's look, so Luke let him see his true form. And of course in Dark Empire Luke turns into a badass Dark Jedi. I think there's other stuff out there that shows how powerful he is. But then again, there's your fair share of novels that make him look weak.

In the last lightsaber fight in I, Jedi Luke was kicking the asses of six force users, well they were semitrained but still he did it without that much effort.

[JME2]

Here's how I see it.

Vergere points out in Destiny's Way, it's Luke's ego at play. Luke's near-brush with the Dark Side when he confronted Palpatine and Vader aboard the second Death Star has convinced him of how far he can use the Force. What Vergere claims is simply raw, Force energy is the Dark Side to Luke.

Therefore, from ROTJ onwards until the NJO finale, Luke's level varried, unwilling or unable to fully embrace the true extent of his Force potential because of his experiences. And because he didn not want to experience another instance of Vader in his life, he passed that set limit onto his students (though it didn't always work, ie Kyp Durron, Brakiss).

[Praxis]

Here's how I see it.

Vergere points out in Destiny's Way, it's Luke's ego at play. Luke's near-brush with the Dark Side when he confronted Palpatine and Vader aboard the second Death Star has convinced him of how far he can use the Force. What Vergere claims is simply raw, Force energy is the Dark Side to Luke.

Therefore, from ROTJ onwards until the NJO finale, Luke's level varried, unwilling or unable to fully embrace the true extent of his Force potential because of his experiences. And because he didn not want to experience another instance of Vader in his life, he passed that set limit onto his students (though it didn't always work, ie Kyp Durron, Brakiss).

I think you're right, but I don't think it started at ROTJ. It started when he turned to the dark side when he confronted the REBORN Emperor (Dark Empire), if I recall correctly. I *think* that was it. He was so spooked by the fact that even he (the master) could turn to the dark side that he became obsessed with it afterward.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

I thought he only did it to deceive Palpatine but lost control?

[JME2]

I thought he only did it to deceive Palpatine but lost control?

Yes, his goal was to destroy the Dark Side from within. Obviously, it backfired horribly.

[Mlenk]

Luke was so pussified throughout the whole NJO that when he finally let loose at the end of Unifying Force, it was sooo cool even though it could have been written better.

[Stofsk]

I thought he only did it to deceive Palpatine but lost control?

Yes, his goal was to destroy the Dark Side from within. Obviously, it backfired horribly.

Well, not quite. Luke and Leia did manage to destroy the Eclipse by redirecting the force storm against Palpatine. Before that, Luke put the World Devastator plans into Artoo, who then escaped with Han and Leia. His plan worked fairly well, it's just at that point the Reborn Emperor entered a clone body and picked up a lightsaber.

[JME2]

I thought he only did it to deceive Palpatine but lost control?

Yes, his goal was to destroy the Dark Side from within. Obviously, it backfired horribly.

Well, not quite. Luke and Leia did manage to destroy the Eclipse by redirecting the force storm against Palpatine. Before that, Luke put the World Devastator plans into Artoo, who then escaped with Han and Leia. His plan worked fairly well, it's just at that point the Reborn Emperor entered a clone body and picked up a lightsaber.

I meant that it backfired at first until Mon Calamari. My bad.

[Tychu]

It seems to me that Luke is nothing without the Force. In ANH he was winny and wussy because he was a farmboy with no force
ROTJ he had the force and could control it as much as he wanted, he feels safe
CourtShip of Princess Leia: Hes had what like 5 years to gain some power since ROTJ hes awesome
Thrawn: the Ysalamiri get to him he becomes weak he sux and is wussy again
Thrawn tril cont: He fights Jorrus C'boath a clone, a clone feels diffrent in the force and he isnt used to this and he falters
NJO: he can't sense the vong, he really has no overwhelming power anymore. His most powerful ally is gone and he has lost his shiled or safety blanket "The Last of the Jedi you will be". He then falls into this trance that he can no longer protect his students anymore. Hes trained them in his image and understanding of the Force. If he is weak and wussified so is his students. He sees Kyp as a strong Jedi but he also sees him as bringing his students into a blind fight and he cant protect them when their not "safe" like they are when their all together and therefore is the reason why he becomes pascifictic during the NJO

[Kurgan]

It seems to me that Luke is nothing without the Force. In ANH he was winny and wussy because he was a farmboy with no force

ANH makes it clear he was a great pilot. Even more so if you read the non-movie canon materials and watch deleted scenes. Then again, we could chalk this up to "Jedi reflexes" like they said Anakin had, despite no training.

As far as the not making up their minds about his power thing, the EU writers do the same thing to Leia.

One minute, she's pretty dang good, the next she can't do jack. Then she's powerful again, then useless again, etc.

[Sunstreaker]

It seems to me that Luke is nothing without the Force. In ANH he was winny and wussy because he was a farmboy with no force

Kurgan said more than enough.

CourtShip of Princess Leia: Hes had what like 5 years to gain some power since ROTJ hes awesome

It was three years, and the force did not save him from extensive injury. The writing was poor in regards to the force in that particular book.

Thrawn: the Ysalamiri get to him he becomes weak he sux and is wussy again

You seem to have missed the ambush in Heir to the Empire as well.

"Karrde walked around the mass of stone to where the crumpled nose of the Chariot assault vehicle poked out, a sense of slightly stunned disbelief coloring his vision. "One man," he murmured" - first paragraph of chapter 30, Heir to the Empire, Timothy Zahn.

Thrawn tril cont: He fights Jorrus C'boath a clone, a clone feels diffrent in the force and he isnt used to this and he falters

Luke didn't know Jorrus C'boath was a clone, and what "faltering" are you referring to?


Get your facts straight before trying again please.

[Praxis]

The faltering he's referring to is when Luke fights his OWN clone (not C'baoth). The presences of Luke's own clone was giving him weird impressions in the force and distracting him.

[Sunstreaker]

The faltering he's referring to is when Luke fights his OWN clone (not C'baoth). The presences of Luke's own clone was giving him weird impressions in the force and distracting him.

"He fights Jorrus C'boath a clone" It sounds to me like Tychu is confused. But if he was referring to the Luke vs Luuke fight then it doesn't help his argument, as Luke was disoriented because of the force, not because he didn't have access to it.

[Lord Pounder]

The Luke -vs- Luuke fight fucked up Luke because there where exact people drawing on the same part of the Force.

[Tychu]

The Ysalmiri get to Luke later on the planet. I havent read the Thrawn trilogy in almost 3 years now but i dont think the Ysalmiri were used to thwart Luke. It wasnt until later in the trilogy that Thrawn used the Ysalmiri as a weapon against Luke. Now if i remember correctly Luke became very impresionable toward Jorrus C'boath in the second book of the trilogy. A CLONE OF JORUS C'BAOTH tricked Luke and tricked him into doing little jobs for him. Luke falterd! When Luke fought Luuke and Jorrus he was getting beat until Mara and Leia showed up. Im pretty sure im remembering all that correctly

[Sunstreaker]

The Ysalmiri get to Luke later on the planet. I havent read the Thrawn trilogy in almost 3 years now but i dont think the Ysalmiri were used to thwart Luke. It wasnt until later in the trilogy that Thrawn used the Ysalmiri as a weapon against Luke. Now if i remember correctly Luke became very impresionable toward Jorrus C'boath in the second book of the trilogy. A CLONE OF JORUS C'BAOTH tricked Luke and tricked him into doing little jobs for him. Luke falterd! When Luke fought Luuke and Jorrus he was getting beat until Mara and Leia showed up. Im pretty sure im remembering all that correctly

You'll have to read that again dude. In Dark Force Rising Luke met up with C'baoth because Luke believed Jorus was a Jedi master. Luke let himself be duped into believing the man was the original Jedi master and being a clone didn't even enter into Luke's reasoning. The ysalmiri were intended by Thrawn to protect him from C'boath, whenever Luke was affected it was a bonus. In my above quote taken from Heir to the Empire it shows the Luke does not need his force powers to be a dangerous individual.

In reference to the battle between Luke and Luuke, that's been answered in above posts. But here's a quote for you to chew on: "He needed time to think and plan, and to find a why past the distraction of the buzzing in his mind"- page 424, The Last Command, Timothy Zahn.

Mara was with Luke the entire time. She was caught by a blast from C'boath's lighting and Luke was left to fight a dark Jedi and a clone of himself at the same time. When she regained consciousness C'boath prevented her interfering with the duel. It wasn't until after Han and friends showed up that Mara got her chance to kill Luuke and free Luke from his mental turmoil caused by the force. Go back and read the book dude. Luke was far from being pathetic and weak as you're implying. I'm not going to quote the entire book for you, but you're memory has distorted Zahn's writing. Both Luke and Mara defeated C'boath together. So you’re correct in thinking that Luke could not stop C’boath’s plans on his own.