OK, I know that Saxton didn't authorize this in HIS ITW

[Graeme Dice]

But how evil? Evil enough to replace it with Incompetence?

Incompetence is always morally superior to evil, because evil is by definition morally incorrect.

It wasn't an honest deal. But it wasn't an atrocity. They are cleaning up the planet after all...

No, they weren't cleaning up the planet at all. Do you even bother to read the books before you start to praise the empire for being so good at murdering their citizens?

[Graeme Dice]

And how do we know any of this except for...? Oh, Alderaan's shield, which was as powerful as any in the galaxy, was up.
If I was trying to show the government's law enforcement or military that I have nothing to hide, I'd hardly do so by trying my best to make sure that my house is impervious to any attempt to enter it.

Remember. Protecting your citizens from a ship larger than any seen in living memory with completely unknown capabilities is a crime worthy of the destruction of your entire planet.

Unless you believe that SW ships prefer to land like a rock (unlike, say, the Acclamators in AOTC), Tarkin would have given the protestors plenty of time to move out of the way of the landing struts as the ship decended, (EDIT:) so it wasn't like they didn't have any choice about staying there and be crushed, or attempting to move.

It's nice to see that you also approve of the massacre in Tianamen square.
n the galaxy...[/quote]

No, actually, my response to that is to run the hell out of the back of the house, since in order for the analogy to be complete they would have to have the turret trained at the house and I would have to know that the gunner was loading a HEAT round.

Actually, didn't the superlaser point to one side to begin with?

Why the hell would you be trying to raise the shield (and keep them up) in the first place against ships of your own (over-)government?

It's a government that is known to be corrupt, and that has just dissolved the last vestiges of democracy. Why should you be supporting them again?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

No, I sincerely doubt that very many people would agree to that at all.

Are you saying the NR is a success? The only debate in my experience is whether the Empire is so bad to live under that even that farce called the NR is better, not whether the NR is in itself a farce.

You'll let me know when Saxton becomes a canon or official source, won't you?

He writes the ICS these days. Also, as long as the conclusion is logical, we can use canonicals to override the official. How did you think Coruscant ever grew bigger than a trillion, or the Executor is 17.6km long. It is much the same darn process.

Of course it isn't. There are virtually no crimes that are worthy of death, and working against your own government certainly isn't one of them.

Oh, I see our entire worldview is completely different. These people are not just protesting. They are stealing and killing and clearly hindering the interests of the country, and their treason is still not worthy of death?

Are you just one of those people who object to the Death Penalty even for things like Murder?

Wrong. The person who deliberately kills their own civilians is a murderer. The person who doesn't manage to protect their civilians simply didn't manage to protect their own civilians. Any other argument is nothing more than people jerking off to how cool the empire is.

His game rule was that the government's duty is to protect the citizens. The easiest way to evaluate that is to see how many died under the government. A person dead due to incompetence is just as dead as a person dead in a suppression/deterrence effort.

Yes, it is. That's why countries like South Africa under apartheid and China are considered to be rather poor places to live.

I see. So you think traitors should not be punished. When people steal government secrets and cause the Death of government soldiers, they do not deserve death. I'm sorry for actually believing in Capital Punishment.

Right, so mind control and brainwashing are valid political tools. Thanks for clearing that up

Really, if any real politican has that kind of influence power, i doubt he would not use it. It is realpolitik. Influence runs in politics all the time. If he was mind controlling, we plain won't have Mon Mothmas and Bail Organas left.

No, you send senators to try and keep the empire from killing you all and enslaving your world.

Sorry, bud. Can't have your cake and eat it too. You send Senators, you are doing it for your own advantage in any case, but the price you are expected to pay is loyalty. You break that for any reason, you can't expect the other side to be forgiving.

"I think the Empire is an ass, so I will do something assholeish that forces them into being even more of an ass. Then when they are more of an ass, I would use that to prove that they are an ass."

No, according to you, they should torture him to death,

Don't have to, but I'm not calling it any great atrocity if they did.

then kill his family and everyone else in the neighbourhood where he grew up. After all, that would help maintain order.

If he's a top governmental official, his government had stated a state of War. Just tough beans the planet was a strategic target, and the uber shield pretty much blocked off all avenues of precision attack.

No, they weren't cleaning up the planet at all. Do you even bother to read the books before you start to praise the empire for being so good at murdering their citizens?

IIRC, they were, cleaning up that little patch known as the Clean Land. The trick was only in that they ensured the rest of the area is polluted with their fake kholm grass. That's not very nice (and honestly shows a stupid lack of species understanding), but it wasn't for them, the Noghri would be extinct, period.

It's nice to see that you also approve of the massacre in Tianamen square.

Major difference #1: IIRC the guys at Tianammen weren't sitting in areas that freeze the planet's trade with outside worlds like the airpads. Those little hypocrites are supposedly complaining about taxes, and they cripple their own planet's economy in their protest. They just can't let them sit around forever on those landing pads.

And honestly, one way or another, even Tianammen Square had to be cleaned out eventually. Can't just let them sit forever. And the government plain will not concede.

[GeneralTacticus]

Major difference #1: IIRC the guys at Tianammen weren't sitting in areas that freeze the planet's trade with outside worlds like the airpads. Those little hypocrites are supposedly complaining about taxes, and they cripple their own planet's economy in their protest. They just can't let them sit around forever on those landing pads.

And honestly, one way or another, even Tianammen Square had to be cleaned out eventually. Can't just let them sit forever. And the government plain will not concede.

So, why could the Empire not have simply sent in Stormtroopers, stunned the protestors, then dragged them out of the spaceport, rather than landing a ship on top of them?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

So, do tell. Why could the Empire not have simply sent in Stormtroopers, stunned the protestors, then dragged them out of the spaceport, rather than landing a ship on top of them?

Logic and self interest on the part of local authories suggest there was almost certainly an eviction effort prior to Tarkin getting there. Obviously, it didn't work, so Tarkin still had people to squash when he got there.

[GeneralTacticus]

So, IOW, you can't think of a reason why that wouldn't work, so you simply assume that one must exist anyway?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

So, IOW, you can't think of a reason why that wouldn't work, so you simply assume that one must exist anyway?

Perhaps it has to do with the chances of collateral damage. The name "stun weapon" is nice, but they are not perfectly harmless. They have been known to play nasty tricks with nervous systems and cause miscarriages (HTTE).

Another possibility is that they worry about the agitative effect suddenly firing would have on the crowd. The crowd might trample each other in the panic, causing more casualtiies than a dozen, or rush the line. That depends on the agitative state of the protestors, and it is hard to make such judgments without actually seeing the particular crowd.

A third possibility is simple ... defenses. This is suppoedly a peaceful crowd, but it doesn't mean they won't have some defenses, such as gas masks so they won't be chased off by the tear gas ... or some light cover to block stun shots. They need some cover anyway, to hide from the elements during a long sit-out (I doubt this is any of those one-day demonstrations we are seeing here).

[GeneralTacticus]

So, IOW, you can't think of a reason why that wouldn't work, so you simply assume that one must exist anyway?

Perhaps it has to do with the chances of collateral damage. The name "stun weapon" is nice, but they are not perfectly harmless. They have been known to play nasty tricks with nervous systems and cause miscarriages (HTTE).

What, exactly, are these 'nasty effects'? Not having read the book, I have no idea what the specific effect is. How big was the crowd, anyway?

Another possibility is that they worry about the agitative effect suddenly firing would have on the crowd. The crowd might trample each other in the panic, causing more casualtiies than a dozen, or rush the line. That depends on the agitative state of the protestors, and it is hard to make such judgments without actually seeing the particular crowd.

True enough, I suppose.

A third possibility is simple ... defenses. This is suppoedly a peaceful crowd, but it doesn't mean they won't have some defenses, such as gas masks so they won't be chased off by the tear gas ... or some light cover to block stun shots. They need some cover anyway, to hide from the elements during a long sit-out (I doubt this is any of those one-day demonstrations we are seeing here).

Gas masks aren't going to do squat against a blaster set to stun (which is what I'm referring to - what they used to capture Leia at the beginning of ANH), and hiding behind something isn't to prevent stormtroopers from stunning them - they'll simply need to fire from elsewhere.

[Rogue 9]

"I think the Empire is an ass, so I will do something assholeish that forces them into being even more of an ass. Then when they are more of an ass, I would use that to prove that they are an ass."

That's rather ass backwards, don't you think? It's more along these lines. "The Empire just killed my family and enslaved my planet for no reason other than power, as they are wont to do all over the fuggin' galaxy. They are objectively assholes. So, I will protest against them." At this point they have two options: Quit being such assholes, or be even bigger assholes. Being assholes, they take the latter. "Wow, they shot me in the middle of a sit in. Well, my friends will just have to put up armed resistance this time." Same choice as before. The Imperials are still assholes. We know which way they go. "Well damn, they just blew up my planet. UP THE REVOLUTION!"

The Empire dug its own grave with its methods. You can only brutalize people for so long before they toss you out on your ass, particularly people who remember living under a republic less than a generation before.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

What, exactly, are these 'nasty effects'? Not having read the book, I have no idea what the specific effect is. How big was the crowd, anyway?

Nobody knows. But IIRC it could have killed, so I figure it was respiratory or cardiac related (the heart might be disrupted into tachycardia by the shock). I've lent my TTT series to a friend, so I won't have the precise quote till Monday (assuming my friend's actual punctual about returning things lent to him this time).

Gas masks aren't going to do squat against a blaster set to stun (which is what I'm referring to - what they used to capture Leia at the beginning of ANH), and hiding behind something isn't to prevent stormtroopers from stunning them - they'll simply need to fire from elsewhere.

Depends on the terrain situation involved. The only problem is we don't quite know how much does it take to block a stunner. It is hard to imagine it being too much, though, considering it does no real damage (there isn't a burn mark or anything). Perhaps a plastic raincoat could have stopped them - stun weapons are hardly my specialty.

Or perhaps a tent - good for long sit-outs. Provides cover against the sun and rain, and even provides limited protection against gas (the wind blows the tear gas clear before it gets too bad), and I doubt the stun bolts can penetrate that.

[GeneralTacticus]

What, exactly, are these 'nasty effects'? Not having read the book, I have no idea what the specific effect is. How big was the crowd, anyway?

Nobody knows. But IIRC it could have killed, so I figure it was respiratory or cardiac related (the heart might be disrupted into tachycardia by the shock). I've lent my TTT series to a friend, so I won't have the precise quote till Monday (assuming my friend's actual punctual about returning things lent to him this time).

I guess we'll have to wait, then.

Gas masks aren't going to do squat against a blaster set to stun (which is what I'm referring to - what they used to capture Leia at the beginning of ANH), and hiding behind something isn't to prevent stormtroopers from stunning them - they'll simply need to fire from elsewhere.

Depends on the terrain situation involved. The only problem is we don't quite know how much does it take to block a stunner. It is hard to imagine it being too much, though, considering it does no real damage (there isn't a burn mark or anything). Perhaps a plastic raincoat could have stopped them - stun weapons are hardly my specialty.

Or perhaps a tent - good for long sit-outs. Provides cover against the sun and rain, and even provides limited protection against gas (the wind blows the tear gas clear before it gets too bad), and I doubt the stun bolts can penetrate that.

Well, the handy thing about tents is that, if protestors are hiding in them, it just means you have to point your gun inside before firing. I doubt the tents are going to hide whether someone's in them from stormtroopers, so it's a simple matter of going from tent to tent and firing into the ones that are occupied. As a bonus, people hiding in tents can't cause much trouble while they're doing so.

[Kurgan]

Wait, is someone still trying to say that the Rebels CAUSED the Galactic Civil War?

Again, begging the question of why anyone would rebel against an oppressive totalitarian regime?

That a totalitarian regime has the right to enforce the death penalty for any and all crimes (as they define crimes of course), but the people have no right to resist (since their outlet of representation in government has just been arbitrarily removed by said totalitarian regime)?


Adolph and Palpatine just get carte blanche because they're THE STATE?

Gee wiz!

I thougth we settled this. Palpatine, the future Emperor, actively destabilizes the Old Republic... I don't care if it's corrupt and slowly dying, he pushes it over the edge by mind controlling Senators, starting a Galaxy wide Civil War that he engineered (see the Trade Federation incident through the Clone Wars), giving orders and supplies to both sides (treason). If anyone is worthy of the death penalty for disloyalty to his nation-state, it's him. And he wasn't just some collaborator trying to save his own skin either, he pushed the Nemoidians into invading his home planet, taking his citizens hostage!

So all those people die so he can become Supreme Chanceller with Emergency Powers, and finally Emperor. Then he can take his ill gotten power, taken through subterfuge and the use of the Dark Side of the Force and dissolve the Senate, and put psychopaths like Tarkin in charge of super-weapons designed to murder oodles of citizens.

And this action then causes ANOTHER Civil War, which is another excuse for brutality, so he can send Stormtroopers out to slaughter people they come into contact with, etc. etc.

And this is all the fault of the Rebels, why again? Because resisting an oppressive regime is morally wrong?

The Rebels were supposed to go "okay, this guy is killing us off and turning us into slaves before our very eyes, but since our government won't be free of problems and will be attacked by aliens in 30 years, we should just bend over and take it."

Now I admit, I haven't read every single EU book in existence, but isn't the fact that the NR has so many problems due in at least small part to the fact that the Empire stubbornly refuses to die? That these warlords keep flying around with their little fleets and missing Dark Jedi and lost super weapons trying to carve out a piece of Palpy's old pie? Now that the NR is the legitimate government, aren't these guys the terrorists, saboteurs and traitors? Even Palpy's ghost gets in the act, taking over clone bodies and order this or that atrocity and tossing crazy shit around.

In the face of overwhelming evil, I think they've done okay. It would have been nice had all these problems ended after the Death Star blew up and the various planets celebrated the Empire's overthrow, but blame that on the EU writers who's checks Lucas signed.

Btw, Happy Halloween!

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

That's rather ass backwards, don't you think? It's more along these lines. "The Empire just killed my family and enslaved my planet for no reason other than power,

That might apply to someone like the Wookiees, who were unfortunately re-evaluated as non-sentient and Domesticated. That does not apply to the Aldies. They were doing pretty well.

They are objectively assholes. So, I will protest against them."

By blocking trade on a planet, thus objective clearly going against the Public Order and creating clear detrimental effects on the economy.

At this point they have two options: Quit being such assholes, or be even bigger assholes. Being assholes, they take the latter.

Kind of hard not to be nasty when you are blocking the landing pads. You guys are not just making a political point, you are hindering all the other people who just want to work!

"Wow, they shot me in the middle of a sit in. Well, my friends will just have to put up armed resistance this time." Same choice as before. The Imperials are still assholes. We know which way they go. "Well damn, they just blew up my planet. UP THE REVOLUTION!"

Face it, pal, no government is going to respond to armed resistance against them in an "understanding" manner. So it is more like the Rebellion forced the Empire into a grave.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Again, begging the question of why anyone would rebel against an oppressive totalitarian regime?

Again, if the Rebels actually at least had a decent plan, there would be fewer Imperial apologists.

That a totalitarian regime has the right to enforce the death penalty for any and all crimes (as they define crimes of course), but the people have no right to resist (since their outlet of representation in government has just been arbitrarily removed by said totalitarian regime)?

Legally at least, they don't.

I thougth we settled this. Palpatine, the future Emperor, actively destabilizes the Old Republic... I don't care if it's corrupt and slowly dying, he pushes it over the edge by mind controlling Senators,

He just tapped them. There probably won't be any Senators left to oppose him if he was seriously controlling them.

starting a Galaxy wide Civil War that he engineered (see the Trade Federation incident through the Clone Wars), giving orders and supplies to both sides (treason).

'Cept the Rebels don't know that. Which does not mean he wasn't an ass. But they can't use that as a reason that way.

So all those people die so he can become Supreme Chanceller with Emergency Powers, and finally Emperor. Then he can take his ill gotten power, taken through subterfuge and the use of the Dark Side of the Force and dissolve the Senate, and put psychopaths like Tarkin in charge of super-weapons designed to murder oodles of citizens.

1) He didn't dissolve the Senate for 20 years, till near the time of ANH.
2) The Rebellion preceded the Death Star. Stop trying to pretend otherwise.
3) You cannot put WMD in the hands of a overly sentimental commander. That just ensures it'd never get used.

And this action then causes ANOTHER Civil War, which is another excuse for brutality, so he can send Stormtroopers out to slaughter people they come into contact with, etc. etc.

Actually, lots of planets made themselves Strategic Targets for the Imperials, and were duly occupied and neutralized.

And this is all the fault of the Rebels, why again? Because resisting an oppressive regime is morally wrong?

If you aren't going to replace it with something decent, yes! Rule #1 of Starting Revolutions: Make sure your Alternative is Really Better. You see, Revolutions means additional lives, and your only justification for them is that the future would be better after the Revolution. If the future looks like the way it does now...

Now I admit, I haven't read every single EU book in existence, but isn't the fact that the NR has so many problems due in at least small part to the fact that the Empire stubbornly refuses to die? That these warlords keep flying around with their little fleets and missing Dark Jedi and lost super weapons trying to carve out a piece of Palpy's old pie? Now that the NR is the legitimate government, aren't these guys the terrorists, saboteurs and traitors? Even Palpy's ghost gets in the act, taking over clone bodies and order this or that atrocity and tossing crazy shit around.

The NR became at best a legitimate enemy government. The Imperial worlds continue to recognize the legitimacy of the Empire.

Let me put it this way. Any idiot government can do OK if there was no pressure. The test of a government is how it reacts to crisis, and the tests issued by the Imperials and others are often in fact very simple to pass, if the government really believes in what they told the guys they were fighting for and if it had a shred of competence to go with it.

Take Solo Command. One of the values the Rebellion says we are going to have after we somehow defeat the Empire is species equality. Zsinj tries to disintegrate the NR by brainwashing non-humans to become his terrorists. This is not a difficult test. All they had to do is recognize the simple truth - terrorists are the minority and do not represent the whole, even if they don't know exactly why. Instead, the Provisional Council, made up of those very beings which supposedly supports this equality, quickly decides to pull all the Twi'leks out of service. This is roughly equivalent to the US brutally pulling all the Muslims out of military service after 9/11. Talk about true colors.

Most of TTT's political problems are internal. Borsk Fey'lya nearly kills NR government at critical time for his power play. The last time we of these morality threads, I already expressed what a joke the end of DFR in particular was.

The Yevethans. Please. They are a small bit power with about 12 central worlds. The NR should have just rolled them over.

The Vong ... they've been in a state of relative peace for years, and those guys turn out to be so few in number that a high proportion of them could be crammed into Sekot. Excuse me when I express this understatement that I am not impressed with the NR's performance.

In both the Yevethan and Vong cases, you can see how the fuck they've been teaching their men. The military has turned into such a pussy they won't fire into a hostage screen on command. In the Yevethan case, for all they know, it is a recording of hostages long dead. Does that matter? No, there's still massive dissension, leading to a failed attack and many of their own lives. The Coruscant Battle in Star by Star is a real low. They can't even understand that when Millions (the hostage screen) are pitted against Trillions (Coruscant), you try and save the Trillions, especially because it isn't like the Millions are going to live (the Vong were clearly going to use them as ramships) just because you don't shoot.

If I were a Rebel soldier, I would definitely be asking myself, "What the fuck was I fighting for, anyway? Did I lose all five of my sons beating the Imperials for this?"

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Well, the handy thing about tents is that, if protestors are hiding in them, it just means you have to point your gun inside before firing. I doubt the tents are going to hide whether someone's in them from stormtroopers, so it's a simple matter of going from tent to tent and firing into the ones that are occupied. As a bonus, people hiding in tents can't cause much trouble while they're doing so.

Barricades and roadblocks would go a long way toward fouling up those attempts to enter among the protestors. There was probably a reason why they weren't evicted.

I doubt the guys would be causing trouble, just that they would make themselves difficult to evict. Unless the Imps shoot, in which case the guys inside the protestors area would be pounded on.

I'm not even sure whether Tarkin had stormies to play with. They seem to assign stormies to Star Destroyers, but smaller vessels seem to use a regular Navy Trooper complement, and they don't have that fancy equipment.

[GeneralTacticus]

Well, the handy thing about tents is that, if protestors are hiding in them, it just means you have to point your gun inside before firing. I doubt the tents are going to hide whether someone's in them from stormtroopers, so it's a simple matter of going from tent to tent and firing into the ones that are occupied. As a bonus, people hiding in tents can't cause much trouble while they're doing so.

Barricades and roadblocks would go a long way toward fouling up those attempts to enter among the protestors. There was probably a reason why they weren't evicted.

What, so the mighty Imperial miltiary does not have the means to breach roadblocks? If their objective was to remove the protestors from the spaceport with minimum loss of life, a brief delay to remove roadblocks shouldn't be an issue.

I doubt the guys would be causing trouble, just that they would make themselves difficult to evict. Unless the Imps shoot, in which case the guys inside the protestors area would be pounded on.

Well, do we have any idea how fast blasters fire on stun? If it's fast enough, and the Stormies stick together, attempting to rush them would be futile, as the protestors would simply be stunned en masse and then carted away.

I'm not even sure whether Tarkin had stormies to play with. They seem to assign stormies to Star Destroyers, but smaller vessels seem to use a regular Navy Trooper complement, and they don't have that fancy equipment.

You might have a point there, but they could have asked for some Stormtroopers at the very least. I wouldn't expect the request to be granted, but that's the Empire for you; why bother taking the humane course and breaking up the protest without killing anybody, when you can just land a ship on them instead?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

What, so the mighty Imperial miltiary does not have the means to breach roadblocks? If their objective was to remove the protestors from the spaceport with minimum loss of life, a brief delay to remove roadblocks should't be an issue.

They have very little time remaining. They could eventually breach the roadblocks, but you are calling for more and more equipment and greater and greater force, with increased chances of casualties - to both sides.

Well, do we have any idea how fast blasters fire on stun? If it's fast enough, and the Stormies stick together, attempting to rush them would be futile, as the protestors would simply be stunned en masse and then carted away.

The problem is that you are trying to poke the rifles into the tents, You can only be so concentrated. You are talking being really close to the protesters.

Yet another problem is the sheer amount of protestors. It would be a very long cleanup process if there were lots of them.

You might have a point there, but they could have asked for some Stormtroopers at the very least. I wouldn't expect the request to be granted, but that's the Empire for you; why bother taking the humane course and breaking up the protest without killing anybody, when you can just land a ship on them instead?

Honestly, in the Imperial military, Captain Tarkin, if he had any chance of solving the problem by himself, would have chosen to do so. Requesting reinforcements would be seen as a sign of failure. It might mean his ass, not just his career. Oh well, no one said that the Empire's a perfect saint.

Depending on what ship he actually commanded, he might even be hard pressed to deploy what troops he did have until he landed somehow. Some classes may not even carry a dropship. And there are only so many good landing spots for ships that are not already a landing pad.

And before you say poor planning - one would think that the frigging planetary authorities can at least disperse some protestors sitting on their landing pads, and handling this job was probably not the only reason he was sent out this far. Tarkin's probably looking to land, getting the taxes, and continuing on his journery. He was probably feeling very pissed as he squashed the protestors, and presumably led troops to sack the local police force head for Incompetence.

In any case, if they can wait for Tarkin to come over, they were already blocking the economy far too long and likley resisted too many eviction efforts. If these protestors have resisted efforts of this whole planet (the local police would mobilize hundreds, perhaps thousands to handle such a large event) so far, how much extra effect would adding a couple hundred naval troopers with more training in ship defense than riot duty have? Tarkin's probably thinking "Let's get this problem solved, NOW!" Shock and awe!

Even If Tarkin is to blame for not exhausting every solution, he still shouldn't shoulder all of the blame versus those recalcitrant "peaceful" protestors.

[Graeme Dice]

Are you saying the NR is a success?

Are they a tyrannical dictatorship? Nope. Looks like they're a success.

The only debate in my experience is whether the Empire is so bad to live under that even that farce called the NR is better, not whether the NR is in itself a farce.

Let's see. The empire is a dictatorship that attempts to rule its population through fear, violence and oppression.

He writes the ICS these days.

Which is utterly irrelevant until his work is published.

Oh, I see our entire worldview is completely different. These people are not just protesting. They are stealing and killing and clearly hindering the interests of the country, and their treason is still not worthy of death?

The "country" that the are acting against is not their legitimate government, so its hardly treason.

Are you just one of those people who object to the Death Penalty even for things like Murder?

Of course I am.

His game rule was that the government's duty is to protect the citizens. The easiest way to evaluate that is to see how many died under the government. A person dead due to incompetence is just as dead as a person dead in a suppression/deterrence effort.

Except, of course, that you're trying to ignore that it's better to die a free man than live a slave.

I see. So you think traitors should not be punished. When people steal government secrets and cause the Death of government soldiers, they do not deserve death.

They don't when the government they are fighting is clearly an oppressive, tyrannical and illegal government.

I'm sorry for actually believing in Capital Punishment.

You should be, since it makes you essentially a troglodyte.

Really, if any real politican has that kind of influence power, i doubt he would not use it. It is realpolitik.

Which does not make it moral or legal. Thanks for conceding the point.

Influence runs in politics all the time. If he was mind controlling, we plain won't have Mon Mothmas and Bail Organas left.

We know that the Emperor was capable of, and fully willing to control the minds of vast groups of people. That he chose not to control everyone does not mean that you can ignore the canon evidence that he used his force powers to get himself into power.

Sorry, bud. Can't have your cake and eat it too. You send Senators, you are doing it for your own advantage in any case, but the price you are expected to pay is loyalty. You break that for any reason, you can't expect the other side to be forgiving.

Glad to see that you actually support the various tyrannical regimes here on Earth, and that you are so willing to blame the victims.

Don't have to, but I'm not calling it any great atrocity if they did.

I think I'm going to have to quote you on this.

Here we go. Kaz thinks that it isn't an atrocity to torture people to death for resisting an illegoitimite and oppressive government. China must really love people like you.

If he's a top governmental official, his government had stated a state of War. Just tough beans the planet was a strategic target, and the uber shield pretty much blocked off all avenues of precision attack.

You really like to blame the victims, don't you.

IIRC, they were, cleaning up that little patch known as the Clean Land. The trick was only in that they ensured the rest of the area is polluted with their fake kholm grass. That's not very nice (and honestly shows a stupid lack of species understanding), but it wasn't for them, the Noghri would be extinct, period.

And it's still the action of a corrupt and evil government. No amount of dodging the point will change that.

Major difference #1: IIRC the guys at Tianammen weren't sitting in areas that freeze the planet's trade with outside worlds like the airpads. Those little hypocrites are supposedly complaining about taxes, and they cripple their own planet's economy in their protest. They just can't let them sit around forever on those landing pads.

And, of course, the proper thing to do is to murder them all instead of arresting them. Like I said, you obviously support the use of tanks to crush protesters in Tianamen square.

And honestly, one way or another, even Tianammen Square had to be cleaned out eventually. Can't just let them sit forever. And the government plain will not concede.

Thansk for demonstrating that you are a worthless piece of human flesh that has absolutely no compassion for your fellow humans that don't meekly do whatever their government tells them to.

[Graeme Dice]

Perhaps it has to do with the chances of collateral damage. The name "stun weapon" is nice, but they are not perfectly harmless. They have been known to play nasty tricks with nervous systems and cause miscarriages (HTTE).

And of course it's better to crush them to death.

They need some cover anyway, to hide from the elements during a long sit-out (I doubt this is any of those one-day demonstrations we are seeing here).

And of course, the fact that they hapen to be organized protesters means that the government has the right to kill them without recourse.

[Graeme Dice]

The Empire dug its own grave with its methods. You can only brutalize people for so long before they toss you out on your ass, particularly people who remember living under a republic less than a generation before.

But, you're supposed to be _grateful_ to the empire for brutally suppressing its population, because that makes the government stronger!

[Graeme Dice]

That might apply to someone like the Wookiees, who were unfortunately re-evaluated as non-sentient and Domesticated. That does not apply to the Aldies. They were doing pretty well.

Ahhh yes, the slaves are supposed to be happy because they are better off than other slaves. It's also nice to see that you're now making up imaginary stories about the wookies being "re-evaluated as non-sentient", when they were quite clearly being used for construction work.

By blocking trade on a planet, thus objective clearly going against the Public Order and creating clear detrimental effects on the economy.

Public order is not a universal good.

Face it, pal, no government is going to respond to armed resistance against them in an "understanding" manner. So it is more like the Rebellion forced the Empire into a grave.

Yep. More blaming the victims. Rapists must love to get you on their juries.

[Graeme Dice]

The NR became at best a legitimate enemy government. The Imperial worlds continue to recognize the legitimacy of the Empire.

Wrong. The Empire had no legitimacy because it was not accountable to its population. The leaders were not elected. It brutally suppressed dissent. In short, your delusion that the Empire was a legitimate government is no different than pretending that a gang that rules part of a city is a legitimate government.

[Graeme Dice]

What, so the mighty Imperial miltiary does not have the means to breach roadblocks? If their objective was to remove the protestors from the spaceport with minimum loss of life, a brief delay to remove roadblocks shouldn't be an issue.

Ahhh, but you see, the Empire is the _good guys_. That's why the Emperor and Darth Vader _kill_ people for fun.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Are they a tyrannical dictatorship? Nope. Looks like they're a success.

I never knew until now that your sole definition of a successful government is totally by whether it happens to be a "tyrannical dictatorship." Never mind that it failed to handle an enemy that shouldn't even have made the Galactic News until half the galaxy was conquered and destroyed, no. As long as it is not a tyrannical dicatiorship, it is a success. Sigh...

The "country" that the are acting against is not their legitimate government, so its hardly treason.

Yet they have recognized it as such.

Of course I am.

Just as I suspected ... our worldview is too different for continued discussion.

Except, of course, that you're trying to ignore that it's better to die a free man than live a slave.

The average man in the Empire is hardly a slave.

They don't when the government they are fighting is clearly an oppressive, tyrannical and illegal government.

Find me a government that thinks of itself as "oppressive, tyrannical and illegal." It is unrealistic to expect any government to go light on treasonous people, and while standards on what defines treason varies, stealing government data, blowing up government depots and killing governmental personnel counts in most places.

Which does not make it moral or legal. Thanks for conceding the point.

Realpolitk however, does imply it is not so wrong in practice as to make it an atrocity.

We know that the Emperor was capable of, and fully willing to control the minds of vast groups of people. That he chose not to control everyone does not mean that you can ignore the canon evidence that he used his force powers to get himself into power.

I agree that he influenced, but he apparently did not control.

Glad to see that you actually support the various tyrannical regimes here on Earth, and that you are so willing to blame the victims.

Just that they should not complain when it does happen. See here. Government sets rule: "Rebel and Die." You Rebel because you think the government's evil. Government naturally has no choice but to live up to its word. Rebel says "See, Empire Evil - they kill me because I Rebel!"

Here we go. Kaz thinks that it isn't an atrocity to torture people to death for resisting an illegoitimite and oppressive government. China must really love people like you.

from the viewpoint of the government, certainly that's so. You don't find many governments sympathetic to treasonous people.

And, of course, the proper thing to do is to murder them all instead of arresting them. Like I said, you obviously support the use of tanks to crush protesters in Tianamen square.

1) In both cases, the emphasis was on dispersing them, not on killing them.
2) Only a very relative few died in both cases.
3) Honestly, while Tinammen Square is a tragedy, like Alderaan and Ghorman, I just can't help but feel those people have overstayed their welcome. You've made your point, so why don't you leave? Dammit, you are getting into everyone elses' way (Ghorman more so than Tinammen). For Ghorman, purely going by the majority's interests (unless you think letting the economy die from its trade routes being blocked is in the Ghorman people's overall interest), the minority would have to give ... one way or another.
4) When you protest, you are not really trying to confront the government. You are trying to show you have an interest in public welfare and are determined enough to sit out there in the blazing sun and let the government notice. You are hoping when the government sees how determined you are, it'd realize it is a problem and fix it. You don't show that by taking actions that wreck your planet's economy in the process.

And of course, the fact that they hapen to be organized protesters means that the government has the right to kill them without recourse.

They are clearly defying Orders (and valid ones - we don't want you to block the trade of people that just want to get on with their lives, is that order so immmoral in itself?) Tarkin presumably took several days to arrive from Start of Incident, so probably any "gentle" methods they could dream up have been tried already, and perhaps a few more violent ones.

Ahhh yes, the slaves are supposed to be happy because they are better off than other slaves. It's also nice to see that you're now making up imaginary stories about the wookies being "re-evaluated as non-sentient", when they were quite clearly being used for construction work

The Imperial law apparently says that if an animal is rated "non-sentient", it may be "domesticated", which in principle is OK (we think it is OK to have dogs after all). Of course, the Empire did take the chance to "re-evaluate" many species to be non-sentient, which I personally disapprove. Of course, the SW people as a whole have a kind of wierd, arbitrary concept of what is sentience (see the advanced droids). And with that kind of concept makes it easy to extend it to a few other species. If you can think of a few arbitrary differences to say Species 1 is not sentient, a few others can be used to justify the ideas Species 2 is not.

In any case, one should not immediately brand people as slaves just because they don't have all the rights we do. By that measure, women would be slaves before they were allowed to vote, and all the peasants under a monarchy would be slaves.

Public order is not a universal good

Really. How does it do anybody any "universal good" when you sit on the frigging landing pads and disrupt your home planet's trade? At the very least, you guys do your frigging protests somewhere else!

Yep. More blaming the victims. Rapists must love to get you on their juries.

Blaming the victims? Hardly. I'm just pointing out they signed an agreement and they broke it (not the case with a rapist). And whether the government is democratic or autocratic, one cannot expect anything good to come out of it.

Wrong. The Empire had no legitimacy because it was not accountable to its population. The leaders were not elected. It brutally suppressed dissent. In short, your delusion that the Empire was a legitimate government is no different than pretending that a gang that rules part of a city is a legitimate government.

Oh, so your idea of legitimacy is not based on recognition, but merely on how democratic a country is. I hate to break it to you, but we still think of China as legitimate, as we did the old Soviet Union.

Ahhh, but you see, the Empire is the _good guys_. That's why the Emperor and Darth Vader _kill_ people for fun

They aren't a shining white. If there was an election, I won't be voting for them the next time. However, I just doubt whether it was worth all the lives, only to get something like the NR.

[Graeme Dice]

I never knew until now that your sole definition of a successful government is totally by whether it happens to be a "tyrannical dictatorship." Never mind that it failed to handle an enemy that shouldn't even have made the Galactic News until half the galaxy was conquered and destroyed, no. As long as it is not a tyrannical dicatiorship, it is a success. Sigh...

Any government that is not tyrannical is better than one which is.

Yet they have recognized it as such.

And, of course, the government is always right.

Just as I suspected ... our worldview is too different for continued discussion.

Good. Glad to hear you confirm that you're a mindless drone.

The average man in the Empire is hardly a slave.

They are no different from a slave because they have no recourse to deal with the government.

Find me a government that thinks of itself as "oppressive, tyrannical and illegal."

What the government itself thinks of its policies doesn't matter one whit.

It is unrealistic to expect any government to go light on treasonous people, and while standards on what defines treason varies, stealing government data, blowing up government depots and killing governmental personnel counts in most places.

As an outside observer, we can clearly see that the Empire is not a legitimate government. The rebels cannot be guilty of treason, because the group they are fighting is not a valid government, but is instead a gang of thugs that took power through force.

Realpolitk however, does imply it is not so wrong in practice as to make it an atrocity.

Realpolitik is not moral nor is it anything approaching a valid standard for how one should deal with other people.

I agree that he influenced, but he apparently did not control.

You're trying to dodge the issue by nitpicking and pretending that I claimed that he was using outright zombie-like control instead of mind control that is more subtle. Try not to behave like a trekkie.

Just that they should not complain when it does happen. See here. Government sets rule: "Rebel and Die." You Rebel because you think the government's evil. Government naturally has no choice but to live up to its word. Rebel says "See, Empire Evil - they kill me because I Rebel!"

And of course, the rules set by a government are always correct, no matter how unjust they might be.

from the viewpoint of the government, certainly that's so. You don't find many governments sympathetic to treasonous people.

And like I said, that illustrates that you actually believe that it's not an atrocity for a government to torture political prisoners. That a government such as the empure even _has_ political prisoners is another indicator that they are not a legitimate ruling body.

1) In both cases, the emphasis was on dispersing them, not on killing them.
2) Only a very relative few died in both cases.

So it's okay because only a few people were murdered?

3) Honestly, while Tinammen Square is a tragedy, like Alderaan and Ghorman, I just can't help but feel those people have overstayed their welcome. You've made your point, so why don't you leave? Dammit, you are getting into everyone elses' way (Ghorman more so than Tinammen).

And now "getting in someone's way" is a valid excuse for murder.

For Ghorman, purely going by the majority's interests (unless you think letting the economy die from its trade routes being blocked is in the Ghorman people's overall interest), the minority would have to give ... one way or another.

Or, instead, the Empire could actually deal with the protesters in a manner other than killing them. You know, like a reasonable governing body would.

4) When you protest, you are not really trying to confront the government. You are trying to show you have an interest in public welfare and are determined enough to sit out there in the blazing sun and let the government notice. You are hoping when the government sees how determined you are, it'd realize it is a problem and fix it. You don't show that by taking actions that wreck your planet's economy in the process.

If the government ignores protests that are designed to show an interest in politics, and continues to brutally suppress dissention, then yes, you do rise up in revolution.

They are clearly defying Orders (and valid ones - we don't want you to block the trade of people that just want to get on with their lives, is that order so immmoral in itself?) Tarkin presumably took several days to arrive from Start of Incident, so probably any "gentle" methods they could dream up have been tried already, and perhaps a few more violent ones.

Why don't you prove this baseless assertion instead of pretending that you can make up evidence as you see fit.

The Imperial law apparently says that if an animal is rated "non-sentient", it may be "domesticated", which in principle is OK (we think it is OK to have dogs after all).

You ignored the question just like I thought you would. You did not provide any evidence that the Empire considered wookies to be non-sapient, nor did you deal with the fact that they used them in construction work, which is clearly not a job for animals. Concession accepted.

Of course, the Empire did take the chance to "re-evaluate" many species to be non-sentient, which I personally disapprove.

I highly doubt that you disapprove of it, considering the way that you idolize the Empire.

Really. How does it do anybody any "universal good" when you sit on the frigging landing pads and disrupt your home planet's trade? At the very least, you guys do your frigging protests somewhere else!

Yep. The standard bullshit argument that protesters should make themselves irrelevant and ignorable so that they don't inconvenience those in power. Concession accepted.

Blaming the victims? Hardly. I'm just pointing out they signed an agreement and they broke it (not the case with a rapist).

Please provide proof that they signed an agreement. Oh wait, you can't do that, since no such evidence exists. Concession accepted.

And whether the government is democratic or autocratic, one cannot expect anything good to come out of it.

Yep. You're blaming the victims. Thanks for playing.

Oh, so your idea of legitimacy is not based on recognition, but merely on how democratic a country is. I hate to break it to you, but we still think of China as legitimate, as we did the old Soviet Union.

Unless you can show me that both China and the Soviet Union had the support of the majority of their population, and that the average person could affect the government in some meaningful way, then yes, they were and are illegitimate governments. I can't believe that you are so mindlessly devoted to the Empire that you are now actually starting to defend the Chinese government and its various atrocities.

They aren't a shining white.

That's right, they one of the blackest examples of pure evil you're likely to find in popular culture.