Powell comments on Taiwan's Sovereignty

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2004-10-29 09:38pm

Well, they say they give a fuck about Taiwan, but they have real interests to protect it. Taiwan is one of the biggest players in the international chip market, and a chinese attack would literally blow up the computer market. That is one of the reasons today, why they still want to keep Taiwan safe.

AniThyng · Post by **AniThyng** » 2004-10-29 11:59pm

oh FFS even taiwan itself is not overwhelmingly in favour of war over its "independence". it's got all the de facto independence and economic clout it needs - and as terrible as the PRC government is, i suspect even the most rabid anti-government chinese citizen would rather, much rather, not have democracy come to china by way of having a half dozen major cities reduced to irradiated rubble by america.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-10-30 12:51am

arctic_series wrote:meanwhile, realistically speaking... who thinks taiwan's independence will ever happen ? /me thinks it's as good as dead ever since it's conception.

If you're referring to official, "legal" independence, it could be a while. If you're saying that the practical independence that they have now is as good as dead, you're on crack. China is incapable of retaking Formosa.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-10-30 01:49am

It is however quite capable of ruducing it to radioactive rubble. If the One China Policy can stave that off, I'll grit my teeth and play nice with the ChiCom.

arctic_series · Post by **arctic_series** » 2004-10-30 04:46am

Rogue 9 wrote:
arctic_series wrote:meanwhile, realistically speaking... who thinks taiwan's independence will ever happen ? /me thinks it's as good as dead ever since it's conception.
If you're referring to official, "legal" independence, it could be a while. If you're saying that the practical independence that they have now is as good as dead, you're on crack. China is incapable of retaking Formosa.

yes obviously to the "formal" independence, their "practical" independence is well alive and kicking.

so i'm having a hard time seeing what the hell does getting formal independence do for taiwan, other than the administration gaining a shit load more power and influence.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-10-30 04:57am

arctic_series wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote:
arctic_series wrote:meanwhile, realistically speaking... who thinks taiwan's independence will ever happen ? /me thinks it's as good as dead ever since it's conception.
If you're referring to official, "legal" independence, it could be a while. If you're saying that the practical independence that they have now is as good as dead, you're on crack. China is incapable of retaking Formosa.
yes obviously to the "formal" independence, their "practical" independence is well alive and kicking.

so i'm having a hard time seeing what the hell does getting formal independence do for taiwan, other than the administration gaining a shit load more power and influence.

Well honestly they don't want independence. The Republic of China holds that it is the rightful government of all China, and doesn't even recognize Taipei as it's permanent capital; rather having its official capital at Nanjing. As far as each side is concerned, the other is an illegitimate rebel government occupying its rightful territory.

arctic_series · Post by **arctic_series** » 2004-10-30 05:03am

what ? isn't it because the DPP wants independence, hence the whole deal with china pissed off ?

so really the DPP is pretty much going to say "screw it, obviously KMT's dreams of retaking the mainland is dead, so we might as well call taiwan our own and that's that", hence their requests of international recognition of taiwan as a sovereign nation - i.e independence and changing taiwan's official name from republic of china to republic of taiwan ?

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2004-10-30 05:15am

It is however quite capable of ruducing it to radioactive rubble. If the One China Policy can stave that off, I'll grit my teeth and play nice with the ChiCom.

"Reducing it to radioactive rubble?" Maybe, but at what cost? Even a non-nuclear attack on Taiwan would probably mean war with America, and war with America can only end in disaster for the People's Republic, which has to keep up a strong front to deal with the unhappy peasants, Islamic dissidents, and the Russian and Indian vultures circling around it's borders.

arctic_series · Post by **arctic_series** » 2004-10-30 05:42am

the same can be said for the US, they'd never risk [insert some random but important stuff] with china for taiwan.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2004-10-30 05:53am

Yeah, but China cannot hit the US as effectively as the US can hammer China, and in any Taiwan scenario, China, not the US, will be the aggressor, and thusly they will be the ones thinking long and hard on the consequences.

arctic_series · Post by **arctic_series** » 2004-10-30 06:25am

how does that work ? where does one get the notion that the US would nuke china over taiwan ?

it all depends on how involved the US will be when and if china does decide to take taiwan by force. the most the US would ever do in that given event is to support taiwan's defensive, not go on the offense and nuke china. don't know where people get such absurd ideas from... especially considering unlike iraq, anything that happens to china will adversely affect the rest of the world.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2004-10-30 06:56am

Bakka..Taiwan, I have concluded, are a bunch of idiots or cowards who expect a bail out of their own self inflicted misfortune. No one is going to reconise Taiwanese independence because they dont declare their independence, as such they are a part of China untill they do. Jesus, it dosent take a genius to work out

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2004-10-30 06:59am

arctic_series wrote:how does that work ? where does one get the notion that the US would nuke china over taiwan ?

it all depends on how involved the US will be when and if china does decide to take taiwan by force. the most the US would ever do in that given event is to support taiwan's defensive, not go on the offense and nuke china. don't know where people get such absurd ideas from... especially considering unlike iraq, anything that happens to china will adversely affect the rest of the world.

You are aware that China cannot take Taiwan by force?

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2004-10-30 07:17am

it all depends on how involved the US will be when and if china does decide to take taiwan by force. the most the US would ever do in that given event is to support taiwan's defensive, not go on the offense and nuke china. don't know where people get such absurd ideas from... especially considering unlike iraq, anything that happens to china will adversely affect the rest of the world.

The US can easily stop *any* conventional Chinese offensive on Taiwan simply by blockading the straits and launching bombing runs on military buildups on the coast. Therefore, any Chinese attempt to take Taiwan will have to use force so overwhelming that the USN and USAF could be disregarded, and that means nukes, and the Chinese leaders aren't that stupid.

Taiwan and China will never be united. The sooner Taiwan declares itself to be a nation entirely apart, the better.

arctic_series · Post by **arctic_series** » 2004-10-30 07:19am

yes of course, but just the act of china trying is enough to get the same result, something that benefits no one and will more than likely adversely affect the world.

meanwhile, i've concluded this about taiwan. seems like the people of taiwan has been conned into independence by the DPP, it all makes perfect sense.

to quote Hermann Goering, (1893-1946) founder of Nazi Germany's secret police, the Gestapo --

"Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country. "

ever since the DPP have come into office, they've made a big mess out of the whole situation, but hey.. it's the same kind of mess that keeps getting them re-elected..

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2004-10-30 07:25am

arctic_series wrote:
to quote Hermann Goering, (1893-1946) founder of Nazi Germany's secret police, the Gestapo --

"Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country. "

..

Ol Hermann was an astute guy when he was lucid

arctic_series · Post by **arctic_series** » 2004-10-30 07:26am

HemlockGrey wrote:
The US can easily stop *any* conventional Chinese offensive on Taiwan simply by blockading the straits and launching bombing runs on military buildups on the coast.
that's if the US even commits that kind of force to support taiwan in the first place, knowing the chinese government's mentality to save face. there is no such thing as a casualty too high.

Therefore, any Chinese attempt to take Taiwan will have to use force so overwhelming that the USN and USAF could be disregarded, and that means nukes, and the Chinese leaders aren't that stupid.
well at the rate that the chinese military is modernising itself, how many years will it be that taiwan will realistically declare independence, and will china then have the capabilities to take taiwan by force ?

Taiwan and China will never be united.
well right now, it's looking a lot like the opposite.

The sooner Taiwan declares itself to be a nation entirely apart, the better.

actually not really. it's in everyone's best interest to maintain the status quo.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-10-30 03:12pm

The average Joe of the United States has decided we have a duty to maintain de facto Taiwan indepenence, wheter we have a treaty to that end or not. Also allowing democratic Taiwan to fall under Communist Chinese rule would be political sudice for any American leader.

Meanwhile attemptting to assualt Taiwan would end up being outright sudice for any Chinese leader. It's going to be long time before their navy or air force is up to fighting the US and if they resort to nukes...

China will not trade Bejing for Taiwan.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-10-30 03:15pm

The Kernel wrote:It may not be suicide, you really think that the US would risk Japan, South Korea and even an ICBM strike inside the mainland US for Taiwan? I tend to doubt it.

We were perfectly willing to risk CONUS for a bunch of Euroweenies during
the 1980s.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

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