Germans Demand Queen War Apology

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2004-10-29 04:38pm

IIRC, Bild also endorses President Bush...

The Cleric · Post by **The Cleric** » 2004-10-29 05:48pm

Frank Hipper wrote:Has anyone even read Thinkmarble's post?

Exactly what I was thinking Frank.

Gambler · Post by **Gambler** » 2004-10-29 06:02pm

I fucking hate tabloids and their bullshit, especially when they make shit up like this.

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2004-10-29 06:03pm

*Sigh* Once again that sleazy tabloid does shit......

The "Bild" newspaper, if you can even call it a newspaper, is very notorious for being:
a)extremly conservative
b)totally without niveau
c)a piece of shit no one with a bit of intelligence reads.

This thing is in the class of the Enlish "Sun", so please don't take it serious.

I really hate it how this tablois again and again gives foreigerns a bad impression of my land

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-10-29 06:06pm

The Daily Express used to be somewhat respected too until a few years ago. My parents still buy it for some reason, despite it being a rag just like The Mail and Sun. Infact, if the paper isn't going on about typical public scares, it's attacking The Mail as a sort of archnemesis.

Funny in a "I can't believe these people get paid for this" sort of way.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2004-10-29 09:19pm

Hey, guys, if you go at it again, don't expect us to stop you. We've got our own problems.

Plekhanov · Post by **Plekhanov** » 2004-10-29 09:45pm

A Greek friend of mine went to Uni in Germany last year and he was pleased to inform me that on the wall of their cafeteria they had a poster saying “we thank the red army for liberating Germany”, and that this sentiment was echoed by pretty much every German he met. Do he bear in mind he’s A nationalist Greek (with a passionate hatred of Turks, in other words he’s no left wing pacifist) who has every reason to hate Germans yet he doesn’t because collectivley they have repented for the crimes of their ancestors, when I was over there my experience was the same.

My point is that some crappy tabloid may have ‘demanded an apology’ but they absolutely do not represent the German people who in my experience are filled with shame not anger over WW2, don’t let the assholes at Bild or the Daily Express distort your opinion, todays Germans are on the whole damn good people who in no way hold grudges about WW2.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-10-29 09:55pm

To add to Plekhanov's point we have a German office at my firm and we occasionally have German colleagues come over for work or to get some experience with US law. They are some of the coolest people I have ever met outside the US. They are funny and friendly, not at all the cold stereotype I've seen on TV. Had a huge crush on a German intern that came over two years ago. We would do lunch almost daily and I enjoyed her stories, personality outlooks on how she viewed the US and Americans and she was very attractive and thought "You know if I was a US soldier in WWII and I met this woman I would have no doubts about making her a war bride."

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2004-10-29 10:28pm

Well they have never appologized to Vonnegut, and the other allied POW's that bomber harris damn near killed.

Ma Deuce · Post by **Ma Deuce** » 2004-10-29 10:41pm

A Greek friend of mine went to Uni in Germany last year and he was pleased to inform me that on the wall of their cafeteria they had a poster saying “we thank the red army for liberating Germany”

Of course, they seem to forget that the Soviet definition of "liberate" seemed to be "rape and pillage everything in sight", and there was little more freedom in the DDR than their was under the Nazis.

They should also thank the Western allies: Even though the Third Reich was doomed before the D-Day landing, without their efforts, all of Germany would have become the DDR, rather than just the eastern 1/3...

Plekhanov · Post by **Plekhanov** » 2004-10-29 11:00pm

Ma Deuce wrote:
A Greek friend of mine went to Uni in Germany last year and he was pleased to inform me that on the wall of their cafeteria they had a poster saying “we thank the red army for liberating Germany”
Of course, they seem to forget that the Soviet definition of "liberate" seemed to be "rape and pillage everything in sight", and there was little more freedom in the DDR than their was under the Nazis.

You couldn’t be more wrong, these guys are well aware of the war crimes the red army (as in raping their grandmothers) that is one of the reason’s why my friend who had an excellent knowledge of history and who attended a WEST GERMAN Uni was so impressed by the poster I mentioned and the general attitude of his fellow German students.

They should also thank the Western allies: Even though the Third Reich was doomed before the D-Day landing, without their efforts, all of Germany would have become the DDR, rather than just the eastern 1/3...

As I said these guy’s know their history and are well aware of the ways in which WWII could have gone for the German people, they thanked the Soviet’s because they (as I hope you are too) were well aware that the soviets played by far the biggest part in defeating the Nazis, even though they were mass rapists.

There can be few more emphatic demonstrations of contrition for the crimes of the Nazi’s than a generation who knowingly thank an army which they know raped their grandmothers , if that isn’t enpugh for you I don’t know what is.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2004-10-30 04:06am

For every five Germans killed in a bombing raid, one allied serviceman was killed carrying out that raid. It was hardly the butchery of defenceless civilians.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2004-10-30 08:23am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:For every five Germans killed in a bombing raid, one allied serviceman was killed carrying out that raid. It was hardly the butchery of defenceless civilians.

The point could be made that it is still a tragedy, because the raids arguably achieved nothing. All those people killed, on both sides, so the newspapers could report some kind of success. Look at the V1s and 2s; all that effort, just to kill a few miscellaneous civilians during a war you knew you would lose.

BabelHuber · Post by **BabelHuber** » 2004-10-30 08:30am

I think we have to keep one thing in mind: The past is the past. Apologizing for something which has happened 50 years ago has no point whatsoever. Instead, we should look at the future.

Still, facts are facts, and a crime is a crime: It is completely irrelevant if a ukrainian farmer was murdered by Stalin, or if a Jew or Pole was murdered by the nazis, or if a German was murdered by a Pole or a Czech directly after the war.

In all cases, we have an innocent victim and a culprit.

This historical facts should teach us what people are capable of doing, and also teach us to look that it cannot be repeated. But they shouldn't bring up old emotions again, since we cannot gain anything from that.

The allied bombing raids at the very end of WW2 are debateable, I think. There cannot be a doubt that the bombing of German cities made sense in 1943 or 1944 from a military point of view, but what about April 1945?

Which sense did it make to bomb Munich just 2 weeks before war's end?

I think the answer is trivial: The British and American governments decided to bomb the enemy, and after this decision, the order was executed until the war had ended.

salm · Post by **salm** » 2004-10-30 08:47am

Ma Deuce wrote: and there was little more freedom in the DDR than their was under the Nazis.

that´s redicolous. the DDR didn´t have death camps and crap like that. comparing the DDR to the nazis is like comparing a pile of dog shit to the entire sewer system of berlin.

Ma Deuce · Post by **Ma Deuce** » 2004-10-30 12:45pm

salm wrote:that´s redicolous. the DDR didn´t have death camps and crap like that. comparing the DDR to the nazis is like comparing a pile of dog shit to the entire sewer system of berlin.

East Germany (and indeed most of Eastern Europe) was for all practical purposes part of the USSR, thus many East German politcal dissidents ended up in Soviet gulags. Also, please don't try and tell me that the Stasi wasn't as bad as the Gestapo...

Faqa · Post by **Faqa** » 2004-10-30 01:12pm

Ask not for what the stupid burns... it burns for this.

OK, it was fake, but still....

Germans deserved everything they fucking got in the war. End of story.

Next story from this rag'll probably be a demand for Israel to apologize for some of the grandparents of current citizens stinking up German villiages while being burned....

Fuck. Though, from what I understand, some German schools DO teach this skewed version of history - any Germans here want to confirm or deny that?

salm · Post by **salm** » 2004-10-30 02:05pm

Ma Deuce wrote: East Germany (and indeed most of Eastern Europe) was for all practical purposes part of the USSR, thus many East German politcal dissidents ended up in Soviet gulags.

DDR citicens were only judged by the soviets until 1953. after that the DDR government took over.

205 official executions are confirmed, several hundered are estimated.

the death penalty was given for first degree murder, treason and crimes assossiated with the nazis.

now, i´m not saying that the DDR was an angel but to put them on the same level or even the same scale as the nazis is simply not right.

Boyish-Tigerlilly · Post by **Boyish-Tigerlilly** » 2004-10-30 02:59pm

Germans deserved everything they fucking got in the war. End of story.

All of them? You do know that all germans weren't Nazis. And no, no one deserves that. Not jews, not Americans, not anyone. It was necessary, but they didn't deserve it.

Faqa · Post by **Faqa** » 2004-10-30 03:17pm

All of them? You do know that all germans weren't Nazis. And no, no one deserves that. Not jews, not Americans, not anyone. It was necessary, but they didn't deserve it.

You DO know the vast majority supported the Nazis, right? Even if they weren't card-carrying members. And yes, Nazi supporters deserve anything.

BabelHuber · Post by **BabelHuber** » 2004-10-30 03:35pm

You DO know the vast majority supported the Nazis, right? Even if they weren't card-carrying members. And yes, Nazi supporters deserve anything.

What is the 'vast majority'? What about the youth? They were mostly Nazi supporters, but mostly because they were indoctrinated from their very childhood. They had to join Nazi organizations when they were small childs, and a lot of them really thought that they are fighting for the right side. Were they victims, too? Or did they deserve what they got?
It's easy to judge for us, we have all the education and facts at our hands to see the whole picture. Are you sure that you wouldn't have taken part if you were 10 years or so when the Nazis took over power?

And let me tell you one thing: At the end, most of the people who suffer are the innocent.

One of my grandmothers had to flee from Yugoslavia, were a German population had been for a few hundred years. They were intelligent enough to vanish before they got slaughtered and/or raped. They were ordinary farmers, they hadn't done anything.

One of my grandfathers and the other grandmother were forced to leave Czechia, leaving their whole property behind and start a new life. My grandmather's family had a farm, my grandfather's family had a
lumber mill. Quite criminal.

They all didn't vote for the Nazis, since they were born in the 1920ies and even didn't live in Germany before the Nazis annexed their various countries.

Then the men had to join the Wehrmacht and went to the front, and afterwards all were displaced and lost their whole property.

And they all were lucky that they stayed alive. This can hardly be called justice.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-10-30 03:47pm

I remember a Greek that said something that in the end is true even today. Laws are silent in times of war.

Has for wheter the Germans deserved it or not... It was war, it doesn't matter if you deserve it or not, if you are the enemy. The interest of leaders and generals is to hurt the enemy, to break their ability and will to fight, while preserving your own.

Look at the last few centuries, it's been like fighting wild horses single handed just to get basic decent rules accepted and enforced to the point that we will punish offenders.

War is a brutal, savage event that causes damage to everything it touches. If it wasn't it would be a sport.

Faqa · Post by **Faqa** » 2004-10-30 04:00pm

One of my grandmothers had to flee from Yugoslavia, were a German population had been for a few hundred years. They were intelligent enough to vanish before they got slaughtered and/or raped. They were ordinary farmers, they hadn't done anything.

One of my grandfathers and the other grandmother were forced to leave Czechia, leaving their whole property behind and start a new life. My grandmather's family had a farm, my grandfather's family had a
lumber mill. Quite criminal.

If your point was that the Red Army was about as civilized, fine, I agree.

But Dresden was WITHIN German borders. It contained people who KNEW what the Nazis wanted, KNEW their tactics, had a good chance of KNOWING about the camps... and chose to remain. That make them Nazi supporters, in my book.

For the second part, I could relate a similar story of how rich my mother's family was in Poland prior to the Germans invading....

But yes, I agree that the big losers in any war are the innocents.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-10-30 05:57pm

BabelHuber wrote: And they all were lucky that they stayed alive. This can hardly be called justice.

I can’t really blame the various Eastern European nations for expelling Germans, having Germans within you borders had proven to be a rather dangerous liability.

Gustav32Vasa · Post by **Gustav32Vasa** » 2004-10-30 06:12pm

While the British apologies, I think its time that the Russians should apologise for stealing Finland and for stopping Swedish expansion.

Jk