OK, I know that Saxton didn't authorize this in HIS ITW

[Rogue 9]

Depending on what ship he actually commanded, he might even be hard pressed to deploy what troops he did have until he landed somehow. Some classes may not even carry a dropship. And there are only so many good landing spots for ships that are not already a landing pad.

Wait wait wait, you're telling me that Imperial combat dropships require a nice landing pad to offload troops? Wow! We can beat them by hiding out in the wilderness where they can't drop stormtroopers on us! Woohoo!

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Any government that is not tyrannical is better than one which is.

Oh, nice generalization here. So, in pure theory, you would prefer to live in a shithole whose only virtue is democracy over an autocracy where you live well.

And, of course, the government is always right.

Not the point. The Rebels just about always acknowledge the legitimacy of the Imperial government - just that they think it should be overthrown because it is tyrannical. Which is correct, because legitimacy is separate from morality.

Good. Glad to hear you confirm that you're a mindless drone.

No. If your worldview thinks that governments basically do not have the right to use Capital Punishment, then a government that uses Capital Punishment would not be acceptable to you.

They are no different from a slave because they have no recourse to deal with the government.

Sorry, pal, but IIRC that's not the definition of a slave. A slave is a piece of property. If they still have some rights left, they are not slaves. Are you telling me before the advent of democracy, everyone was a slave?

Besides, the Empire seems to be a system that leaves planetary governments more or less alone, though like all Federal governments, they would prefer some thigns are done by the smaller governments. Thus your treatment depends a lot on your local governmental values anyway.

And like I said, that illustrates that you actually believe that it's not an atrocity for a government to torture political prisoners. That a government such as the empure even _has_ political prisoners is another indicator that they are not a legitimate ruling body.

I said that it is no great atrocity to be torturing treasonous people. You may criticize's a government for its wide guidelines for treason, but once it is a valid case of treason, I'm not seeing too many great shakes. Stop downgrading treason into mere Political Prisoner. The latter implies someone who made a few anti-government statements and got arrested. The former implies one who leaked state secrets, stole government property ... etc. One is acceptable under some forms of government, the other is not.

And now "getting in someone's way" is a valid excuse for murder.

Correction: You are getting into everyone's way. Their actions have gone beyond mere expression and into the range of interference. You are not supposed to let your rights interfere with other people's rights, correct?

Or, instead, the Empire could actually deal with the protesters in a manner other than killing them. You know, like a reasonable governing body would.

What makes you think they might never have tried that?

If the government ignores protests that are designed to show an interest in politics, and continues to brutally suppress dissention, then yes, you do rise up in revolution.

Missing the point of paragraph. Let me put it this way: You don't protest in areas that affect other people's normal interests. That's merely selfish. If they just wanted to have a large crowd and attract attention to their cause, they can, for instance, besides the front entrance to the spaceport, in the largest park of the country, next to the governmental building ... etc. The runway/landing pads is just causing trouble for everyone. These people clearly do not respect other people's rights, not just governmental authority.

Why don't you prove this baseless assertion instead of pretending that you can make up evidence as you see fit.

Pure logic, based on the notion that the local police actually want to keep their jobs. I bet Tarkin fired them within minutes of being forced to touch his ship down on protesters. Or if he doesn't have that power, he would still report to the appropriate authority who has that power, so their careers are definitely numbered now. Even if he didn't care one whit about the protestors, that's not the only issue - one has the right to expect local security to be able to disperse a mob.

You ignored the question just like I thought you would. You did not provide any evidence that the Empire considered wookies to be non-sapient, nor did you deal with the fact that they used them in construction work, which is clearly not a job for animals. Concession accepted.

They would do so to legitimize their act. Domestication hardly means you may not use them for particular purposes that they are able to do.

EDIT: Here's the quote:

One problem in eliminating slavery was the New Order's policy toward aliens. The Empire showed increasing reluctance to classify newly discovered species as sapient. If a species wasn't sapient, according to Imperial law, forcing them to work against their will was not slavery; it was domestication.

Some clearly sapient species, such as Wookiees and Mon Calamari, were classified as "animals," and thus were not protected from slaving

I highly doubt that you disapprove of it, considering the way that you idolize the Empire.

Sorry pal. I actually criticize the Empire in many ways, like their High Human Culture, and yes, I believe they could have given more freedom to their citizens. I can feel for that. What I can't feel for is the notion the government should loosen up because the terrorists are running amok in the name of "freedom".

Yep. The standard bullshit argument that protesters should make themselves irrelevant and ignorable so that they don't inconvenience those in power. Concession accepted.

You are not only inconveniencing those in power, dolt. You are inconveniencing your State, your Party, and your People. How would you like it if you had a business trip planned, and it was fouled because some idiot protestors are sitting all the runway, protesting some minor issue.

Please provide proof that they signed an agreement. Oh wait, you can't do that, since no such evidence exists. Concession accepted.

When you sent a Senator, you signed that agreement. You don't send Senators and get to not obey orders.

Unless you can show me that both China and the Soviet Union had the support of the majority of their population, and that the average person could affect the government in some meaningful way, then yes, they were and are illegitimate governments. I can't believe that you are so mindlessly devoted to the Empire that you are now actually starting to defend the Chinese government and its various atrocities.

Oh, I see. You've managed to completely confuse morality issues with Legitimacies. Even the Rebels don't generally make that mistake.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Depending on what ship he actually commanded, he might even be hard pressed to deploy what troops he did have until he landed somehow. Some classes may not even carry a dropship. And there are only so many good landing spots for ships that are not already a landing pad.

Wait wait wait, you're telling me that Imperial combat dropships require a nice landing pad to offload troops? Wow! We can beat them by hiding out in the wilderness where they can't drop stormtroopers on us! Woohoo!

No, I said that some classes don't even carry a dropship, and there are only so many good landing places for 350-400m long ships, are there? The ground has to be of the correct stiffness, preferably flat and even ... etc.

[Lord of the Farce]

So if Saddam had been funding and providing materials to the people behind 9/11 (or similar), and taking advantage of the problems which comes up as a result of these people, what would you call it?

Provide evidence that the Alliance was deliberately and knowingly providing funding to Elscol Loro and her gang in full knowledge of the nature of their activities or retract.

Besides the absurdity of believing that couple of dozen of n'er-do-wells (their words) can actually - by themselves - provide funds and weapons for dozens of planetary scale uprising... no, AFAIK there isn't actually anything in Bacta War directly linking the NR with Loro's group. Then again, this is only after a cursory scan of the book (things like "university" and "exams" (and Neverwinter Nights Platinum, LOL) comes first), a closer examination might reveal more.

Then again, we also know of the NR releasing Black Sun people onto Coruscant to cause as much chaos to the Empire as possible, which is something that we tend call precedence.

[Graeme Dice]

Oh, nice generalization here. So, in pure theory, you would prefer to live in a shithole whose only virtue is democracy over an autocracy where you live well.

One does not live well when one does not have political power.

Not the point. The Rebels just about always acknowledge the legitimacy of the Imperial government

Prove it.

No. If your worldview thinks that governments basically do not have the right to use Capital Punishment, then a government that uses Capital Punishment would not be acceptable to you.

It's always nice to see somebody who hasn't managed to get beyond the level of debating of Mike3 in the couple of years you've been involved with this stuff. "It's my opinion." is not a valid argument.

Sorry, pal, but IIRC that's not the definition of a slave. A slave is a piece of property.

Are you still going on on strawman about slavery? Don't you even realize when somebody uses a well-known phrase as a metaphor for the situation?

Besides, the Empire seems to be a system that leaves planetary governments more or less alone, though like all Federal governments, they would prefer some thigns are done by the smaller governments. Thus your treatment depends a lot on your local governmental values anyway.

Got any evidence for this other than your fanwanks?

I said that it is no great atrocity to be torturing treasonous people.

That's why I called you a worthless piece of human trash, remember?

You may criticize's a government for its wide guidelines for treason, but once it is a valid case of treason, I'm not seeing too many great shakes.

One has to first show that the government belongs in power before one can claim that treason against it was comitted.

Correction: You are getting into everyone's way. Their actions have gone beyond mere expression and into the range of interference. You are not supposed to let your rights interfere with other people's rights, correct?

Why don't you supply some evidence about this situation, instead of making up facts about it.

What makes you think they might never have tried that?

Do you have any evidence that they did? No? Didn't think so.

Missing the point of paragraph. Let me put it this way: You don't protest in areas that affect other people's normal interests.

Wrong. That's the point of civil disobedience. You know, like the stuff that Gandhi championed.
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

That's merely selfish.

If it takes selfishness to get governmental change, then so be it.

These people clearly do not respect other people's rights, not just governmental authority.

Why don't you stop fanwanking, and start providing evidence.

Pure logic, based on the notion that the local police actually want to keep their jobs.

In other words, you have no evidence. Concession accepted.

They would do so to legitimize their act.

You have not provided _any_ evidence that the Empire considered Wookies to be non-sapient. As I said before: Concession accepted.

Some clearly sapient species, such as Wookiees and Mon Calamari, were classified as "animals," and thus were not protected from slaving

I asked for evidence, and the best you can come up with is that? Thanks for conceding that you don't have any evidence that Wookies were considered to be non-sapient. Further, whether they were considered to be sapient or not is irrelevant, since they are, and that makes enslaving them an atrocity.

What I can't feel for is the notion the government should loosen up because the terrorists are running amok in the name of "freedom".

Yep. In other words you idolize the empire and consider them to be the good guys, with arguments that are made up of nothing more than your imagination.

You are not only inconveniencing those in power, dolt. You are inconveniencing your State, your Party, and your People.

Too bad.

How would you like it if you had a business trip planned, and it was fouled because some idiot protestors are sitting all the runway, protesting some minor issue.

It would annoy me, and I'd find another way to get there. You've also not shown that they were protesting a "minor" issue, but that's to be expected from somebody who actually believes that the Empire was good for the galaxy. Unfortunately for you, being inconvenienced is not a valid reason to _murder_ people.

When you sent a Senator, you signed that agreement. You don't send Senators and get to not obey orders.

I asked you to provide proof, and you've failed to do so. Your assertions about the SW universe are not evidence. Concession accepted.

Oh, I see. You've managed to completely confuse morality issues with Legitimacies. Even the Rebels don't generally make that mistake.

No, I haven't made that mistake. Your the one who is trying to argue that the Empire was morally correct in their actions, when they weren't even the legitimate government of the galaxy.

Why don't we make a short list of a few of the things that you've illustrated that you support in this thread:
1. The torturing of prisoners.
2. Mass-murdering of people who do nothing but peacefully protest.
3. The enslavement of sapient species.
4. The removal of political power from the people.
5. The use of mind control.
6. Absolute obedience to a government, no matter how corrupt.
7. That moral legitimacy is irrelevant when dealing with a government.
8. If something is illegal, then that thing is also immoral.
9. That government forces should always use the most extreme form of force first.
10. That it's perfectly all right to kill people who disagree with the government, since it's obviously wrong to disagree with the government.
11. The genocide of populations when a few members rebel against the government.
12. The use of superweapons for routine policing purposes.
13. Mindless obedience to authority, simply because it's an authority.
14. That the ends justifies the means.

Did I forget any of them?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Why don't we make a short list of a few of the things that you've illustrated that you support in this thread:
1. The torturing of prisoners.

Of traitors and especially terrorists, why not? I differentiate them from petty criminals.

2. Mass-murdering of people who do nothing but peacefully protest.

Mass murder never happened. Only a few people died. Stop strawmanning the situation. Honestly, I really wonder why a few people can die at all, considering how slowly the ship would have come down.

3. The enslavement of sapient species.

I said I disapproved of that. READ! I think previously, I said that I would have enforced that policy more universally, and freed the droids as well (the higher degree ones, the worker droids that don't really have thoughts clearly aren't sapient).

All I did was that I pointed out, again, the real root of this racism is in the Star Wars' people funny ideas of sapience (see Shield of Lies).

4. The removal of political power from the people.

Not great, but not in itself a crime enough to justify over-throwing costing billions of lives. He did allow them the Senate, remember, until the Senate clearly proves an unreliable engine. No reasonable government would have allowed the Senate to go on with that kind of unreliability.

5. The use of mind control.

Influence. You do know that some species have pheromones (Falleen, mentioned in SOTE) or looks (Hapans in the RPG), which are supposed to give them a special persuasive advantage against say humans. Some people, of course, have more charisma than others. Other species have other advantages like the Hortek's mind-reading ability, and of course some people are better at reading faces than others. Any politico worth his salt would have used all these to his advantage. How different is that from using the Force to achieve a similar purpose?

6. Absolute obedience to a government, no matter how corrupt.

Never said that.

7. That moral legitimacy is irrelevant when dealing with a government.

It is only a small part, which the Rebels recognize, and you don't. As do most states on this planet. The US still recognizes Saudi Arabia, China, Iran ... etc, despite your wishes to the contrary.

8. If something is illegal, then that thing is also immoral.

Never said that, except to point out from a governmental viewpoint that's true.

9. That government forces should always use the most extreme form of force first.

Without any clear evidence, you quickly leap to the conclusion that they chose to use the most extreme form of Force first, even though it makes no sense, just because the Rebels never bothered to tell you about them.

10. That it's perfectly all right to kill people who disagree with the government, since it's obviously wrong to disagree with the government.

When you start blowing up governmental things, your situation degrades dramatically.

11. The genocide of populations when a few members rebel against the government.

1) It would have been pretty hard to grab those few members thanks to their current position.
2) You are assuming there were only a few supporters.
3) This is Civil War ... and the planetary shield kind of degrades Precision Attack Possibilities.
4) If it did stop the Rebellion (like Tarkin clearly thought it will), this so called genocide would have been compared to events like Hiroshima 50 years later.

12. The use of superweapons for routine policing purposes.

It is more a state where superweapons are required to apply needed force due to the sheer shielding possessed by Aldie.

14. That the ends justifies the means.

If that's so bad, the Rebels do it too:

Perhaps an analogy would help resolve a misunderstanding. Say you are an anti-abortionist. You think abortions are immoral, and any government that lets it happen is immoral too. Yet your government supports abortions (or at least allows it and makes it convenient to do so). I might support your position, and disapprove of the government's position on abortions.

I'd support you if you write a letter to your government explaining that point. I'd even support you if you arranged a peaceful demonstration. I will disapprove if you are arrested for that, much more so if you are tortured. I might even go to the sit-in that demands your release.

However...

That is separate from my approval of your further means.to ensure that end. If you sit on the runway and roadways with your allies and protest, disrupting everyone elses' normal lives, and resist efforts to have you disperse until the Army comes, forgive me for not being too sympathetic if a few of you got hurt in the ensuing eviction.

If you start blowing up governmental buildings and abortion clinics and generally acting like terrorists, forgive me for not being too sympathetic when you fall "victim" to the government's harsh measures. You see, the government may have been immoral in allowing abortion, and to suppress your freedom of speech if it arrested you for the letter, but its order to stop your terrorism (killing them and their civvies) is hardly immoral. The two issues are separate, and People are generally not allowed to break the law just because some parts of the law displeases them. That's true everywhere.

And if you manage to get a whole state leadership to Rebel for this aborion issue, don't expect me to be too sympathetic when the National government sends tanks to put your state under military occupation. And if the state hide behind a shield so powerful that it takes a massive nuke that would destroy the state to get through ...

Change abortion with slavery or any other issue in the Empire. Because the issues are separate. If Ends don't Justify Means, that applies to the Rebels too.

Now, just a few specific remarks:

It's always nice to see somebody who hasn't managed to get beyond the level of debating of Mike3 in the couple of years you've been involved with this stuff. "It's my opinion." is not a valid argument.

Morality always had a few axioms and initial assumptions.

Got any evidence for this other than your fanwanks?

Try the ISB, which clearly states that:

The Empire has not completely altered the governments of hundreds of thousands of worlds. Such a task would be impractical. The Emperor has left it to his advisors to modify the portions of a planetary government, be it government procedure or members of the ruling body, to conform to the will of the Empire. Less than one planet in 80 has been so modified.

The preferred option is to let a planet run itself much as it has for years, but maintaining a visible Imperial presence so that the rulers know who their ultimate master is. The Empire also encourages the constituent planets to reform their own governments to conform to the Imperial method. In this way, individual worlds eliminate laws and freedoms, replacing them with doctrines and statutes more in line with Imperial edicts.

One has to first show that the government belongs in power before one can claim that treason against it was comitted

Unfortunately, the Rebels and the planets have already conceded this argument before you could get in. Maybe they can have you write their arguments next time...

Why don't you supply some evidence about this situation, instead of making up facts about it.

Ghorman is a small planet located in Sern Sector, just outside the Core Worlds. The citizens of Ghorman were staging a peaceful demonstration against new taxes; they staged a sit-in at the spaceport, blocking all of the port’s landing pads. A Republic warship, arriving at the planet to collect the taxes, landed in spite of the citizens, killing dozens and wounding hundreds more. The commander in charge of the warship, one Captain Tarkin, was not prosecuted the murders; in fact, he was promoted.

Unless you think they started sitting in, and Tarkin flew there faster than Superman to kick them off, local forces would have responded. Unless you want to make the contention that there were no local forces at Ghorman.

Why don't you stop fanwanking, and start providing evidence.

When you are sitting at a spaceport and BLOCKING ALL THE PADS, you are clearly hindering other people's rights to travel. Ergo, you are not respecting their rights. So perhaps you shouldn't be so shocked when the Imperials kinda let your rights drop by the wayside in their haste to restore the right of everyone else for free travel, and once they restore that right to themselves, can land and get the taxes they were assigned to get.

I asked for evidence, and the best you can come up with is that? Thanks for conceding that you don't have any evidence that Wookies were considered to be non-sapient.

You wanted evidence they are considered non-sapient. I gave you a quote saying they are classified as "animals", and you ask me for evidence they are considered to be non-sapient by the Empire? Concession accepted. AS for th e latter part, I agreed it was wrong. OK?

It would annoy me, and I'd find another way to get there.

There is no other way. They are blocking all the pads. The spaceport serves as the equivalent of both the airport and the seaport, and a planet has no land-link to another.

And taxes are hardly a killer issue. Do American citizens run out and sit on the runways until the Army evicts them every time the government puts up a new tax?

Unfortunately for you, being inconvenienced is not a valid reason to _murder_ people.

The emphasis was the dispersal. The deaths are an ... accident. Another diffference between Ghorman and Tinammen (they at least opened up in Tinammen). Tarkin is only landing. He isn't shooting those fellas or anything.

I asked you to provide proof, and you've failed to do so.

So you contend being a Senator means you are unrestricted and abide by not even the most reasonable rules?

[Darth Wong]

This argument is ridiculous. Proving that the Empire is not a noble government is easy, so you keep triumphantly doing so, not acknowledging the fact that the New Republic, by essentially allowing anarchy to flourish, was worse.

Yes, in a vacuum it would be a false dilemma to choose between weak central government (and the inevitable outcome: local anarchy) and a strong tyrannical central government. Nevertheless, we are not operating in a vacuum, and in the Star Wars galaxy where we are asked to choose between the New Republic and the Empire, the New Republic produced worse results.

It's easy to say that utopia is better than tyranny. But how does a dictatorship compare to anarchy? Is it such an easy choice then?

[Graeme Dice]

Of traitors and especially terrorists, why not? I differentiate them from petty criminals.

Thanks for once again demonstrating that my assesment of you as worthless human trash was correct.

Mass murder never happened. Only a few people died.

A blatant lie. You yourself stated that 12 people died. That's mass murder.

Stop strawmanning the situation.

Then stop lying about the evidence.

Honestly, I really wonder why a few people can die at all, considering how slowly the ship would have come down.

Tianamen square. Concession accepted.

I said I disapproved of that.

Bullshit. You pardoned the Empire's enslavement of Wookies by claiming that they had been classified as non-sapient.

Not great, but not in itself a crime enough to justify over-throwing costing billions of lives.

And, of course, the billions of people the empire killed to attempt to remain in power don't matter one bit, becaus they were opposing the government.

He did allow them the Senate, remember, until the Senate clearly proves an unreliable engine. No reasonable government would have allowed the Senate to go on with that kind of unreliability.

And once again Kaz lies abouot the evidence. Palpatine dissolved the senate. In other words, the senate had no power. You've also not demonstrated that dissolving the senate was necessary in any way, shape or form.

Influence.

Once again Kaz lies about the evidence. "Influence" as you call it is still the direct control over the thoughts of others. Or are you pretending that the description of how control over people's thoughts occurs due to the force doesn't actually exist in the EU material?

How different is that from using the Force to achieve a similar purpose?

Maybe it's the fact that it's direct mind-control using abilities derived from hate, rage and anger.

Never said that.

More bullshit. You've stated, repeatedly, that the actions of the Empire were not atrocities because they were legal under Imperial rule.

It is only a small part, which the Rebels recognize, and you don't. As do most states on this planet. The US still recognizes Saudi Arabia, China, Iran ... etc, despite your wishes to the contrary.

Nice strawman Kaz. Try sticking to the point instead of dreaming up more irrelevant arguments. You've yet to actually _show_ that the Rebels recognized the government, even if that were relevant. Why don't you try providing this little thing called evidence.

Never said that, except to point out from a governmental viewpoint that's true.

And since you support the actions of that government, and claim that the government was actually benefitting its people, you are also claiming that legality determines morality. Try not to pretend that the logical contradictions in your arguments don't exist.

9. That government forces should always use the most extreme form of force first.

Without any clear evidence, you quickly leap to the conclusion that they chose to use the most extreme form of Force first, even though it makes no sense, just because the Rebels never bothered to tell you about them.

When you start blowing up governmental things, your situation degrades dramatically.

And of course, this gives the government the right to kill and terrify your family members, neighbours, and fellow people from your planet. Oh wait. It only does that in Kaz world, where governments are allowed to behave however they want to because they are the government.

1) It would have been pretty hard to grab those few members thanks to their current position.

Too bad. If you want to be a valid government you have to do things that are hard instead of just killing people you don't like.

2) You are assuming there were only a few supporters.

And you are assuming that the entire population supported the Rebellion. Take a wild guess which one is more likely to be correct. Here's a hint, it's not your viewpoint.

3) This is Civil War ... and the planetary shield kind of degrades Precision Attack Possibilities.

And of course, that makes it okay to kill billions of innocents.

4) If it did stop the Rebellion (like Tarkin clearly thought it will), this so called genocide would have been compared to events like Hiroshima 50 years later.

More of Kaz's desperate fanwank bullshit. Please try and stick to reality Kaz, your delusions only make it clear that you're still the same mindless parrot you were when you first showed up on ASVS.

It's a genocide because they wiped out AN ENTIRE PLANET WITH ALL OF THE PEOPLE ON IT. THE ONLY WAY TO COMPARE IT TO HIROSHIMA WOULD BE IF Little Boy HAD BLOWN UP THE ENTIRE ISLAND OF JAPAN.

It is more a state where superweapons are required to apply needed force due to the sheer shielding possessed by Aldie.

Irrelevant. They still used superweapons and completely unreasonable force. Here's a clue Kaz, when you start supporting genocide, it makes your position untenable.

If that's so bad, the Rebels do it too:

Prove it.

forgive me for not being too sympathetic if a few of you got hurt in the ensuing eviction.

Yep. Like I said before, you like to blame the victim. People like you are the wet dreams of dictators everywhere.

If you start blowing up governmental buildings and abortion clinics and generally acting like terrorists, forgive me for not being too sympathetic when you fall "victim" to the government's harsh measures.

Please let me know when you've got actual _evidence_ that the Imperials only targeted people who were actively fighting against them.

Morality always had a few axioms and initial assumptions.

BZZZT. You're pretending that "Its my opinion" is a valid Get Out of Jail card for this argument. It isn't.

Got any evidence for this other than your fanwanks?

Less than one planet in 80 has been so modified.

In other words: "Conform or die."

Unfortunately, the Rebels and the planets have already conceded this argument before you could get in.

Prove it liar.

A Republic warship, arriving at the planet to collect the taxes, landed in spite of the citizens, killing dozens and wounding hundreds more.

I asked you to prove it with evidence, and you've once again applied your fanwanking. There is absolutely _nothing_ in your quote to suggest that _any_ action was taken other than immediately killing as many protesters as possible. Thanks for conceding.

When you are sitting at a spaceport and BLOCKING ALL THE PADS, you are clearly hindering other people's rights to travel. Ergo, you are not respecting their rights.

Boo fucking hoo. So they are inconvenienced. That's their problem for supporting a government that a large portion of the people don't like.

So perhaps you shouldn't be so shocked when the Imperials kinda let your rights drop by the wayside in their haste to restore the right of everyone else for free travel, and once they restore that right to themselves, can land and get the taxes they were assigned to get.

Do you not understand the concept of civil disobedience? The POINT is to do something mildly illegal so that the government has to react to you. Of course, in your imaginary Kaz world, any amount of disobedience at all is worthy of immediate execution.

You wanted evidence they are considered non-sapient. I gave you a quote saying they are classified as "animals", and you ask me for evidence they are considered to be non-sapient by the Empire?

Liar. Your quote did not mention wookies. Only your fanwank extension to the quote makes it apply to wookies.

AS for th e latter part, I agreed it was wrong. OK?

Liar. You've attempted to pardon the Empire repeatedly on this issue by claiming that they considered Wookies to be non-sapient.

There is no other way. They are blocking all the pads. The spaceport serves as the equivalent of both the airport and the seaport, and a planet has no land-link to another.

Then you wait for them to leave, or get the local police forces to come remove them peacefully. You know, like the way that it's done in countries with legitimate governments on Earth.

And taxes are hardly a killer issue.

Fanwank. Taxes are the issue listed, and you cannot claim that they were not the issue without making up new evidence out of your ass.

Do American citizens run out and sit on the runways until the Army evicts them every time the government puts up a new tax?

They don't over taxes always, but it's standard practice for protesters to force the government to deal with them. That's why the decent governments of the world don't kill dozens of protesters when they bereak up protests.

The emphasis was the dispersal.

And of course, the fact that the intention was to kill innocents doesn't matter one bit in Kaz's world.

The deaths are an ... accident.

Bullshit. They were first degree, premeditated murder.

Another diffference between Ghorman and Tinammen (they at least opened up in Tinammen). Tarkin is only landing. He isn't shooting those fellas or anything.

The Chinese ran over students with tanks. Thus the comparison.

So you contend being a Senator means you are unrestricted and abide by not even the most reasonable rules?

Strawman. I've never made such a claim. All I've asked is that yor provide some evidence of what, exactly, senators agreed to when they took their position. You don't actually have any such evidence, which is why I've quite correctly labelled your arguments as coming directly from your imagination.

I'm not interested in "The Empire as seen by Kaz". I'm interested in "The Empire as seen in the Documented Evidence". Until you stop talking about the former, and start talking about the latter, you've got nothing more than an imaginary world that bears only a superficial resemblance to Star Wars.

[Graeme Dice]

This argument is ridiculous. Proving that the Empire is not a noble government is easy, so you keep triumphantly doing so, not acknowledging the fact that the New Republic, by essentially allowing anarchy to flourish, was worse.

Keep on rationalizing away all the atrocities Mike. It suits you. I am not required to defend the NR when my opponent is doing nothing more than trying to crow about how great the Empire was.

Yes, in a vacuum it would be a false dilemma to choose between weak central government (and the inevitable outcome: local anarchy) and a strong tyrannical central government. Nevertheless, we are not operating in a vacuum, and in the Star Wars galaxy where we are asked to choose between the New Republic and the Empire, the New Republic produced worse results.

Why don't you prove it then Mike. I'm getting sick of all the people who whack off to the "majesty" of the Empire and how much ass they would have kicked if only they hadn't been beaten. Why don't you provide some reasonable argument for why the Empire would have even survived as a single entity to the time that the Vong arrived, or even that the Emperor would still be alive given that his body was already rotting away by ROTJ.

It's easy to say that utopia is better than tyranny. But how does a dictatorship compare to anarchy? Is it such an easy choice then?

Yes, it is an easy choice. That's because the NR is not an anarchy, no matter how much Imperial apologists try to portray it as one.

[Darth Wong]

Keep on rationalizing away all the atrocities Mike. It suits you.

Keep on relying on strawman distortions and bullshit, Graeme. It suits you.

I am not required to defend the NR when my opponent is doing nothing more than trying to crow about how great the Empire was.

Yes you are, since that is a strawman distortion. No one seriously argues that the Empire is morally flawless. What is argued is that it was ultimately better than the alternative, which happens to be the ineffective New Republic.

Why don't you prove it then Mike. I'm getting sick of all the people who whack off to the "majesty" of the Empire and how much ass they would have kicked if only they hadn't been beaten.

They were never "beaten". They self-destructed with no central leader, which is the weakness of all Empires.

Why don't you provide some reasonable argument for why the Empire would have even survived as a single entity to the time that the Vong arrived, or even that the Emperor would still be alive given that his body was already rotting away by ROTJ.

He had clone bodies and was capable of extending his rule. The Empire fell because of a few key mistakes made at the Battle of Endor, not because the Emperor couldn't have held it together.

It's easy to say that utopia is better than tyranny. But how does a dictatorship compare to anarchy? Is it such an easy choice then?

Yes, it is an easy choice. That's because the NR is not an anarchy, no matter how much Imperial apologists try to portray it as one.

So a weak central government which allows regional authorities to build independently governed warfleets and isn't even capable of keeping local political disputes from exploding into interplanetary warfare without the convenient plot-device of a heretofore cautious Thrawn clone overextending himself is not effectively anarchistic?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

A blatant lie. You yourself stated that 12 people died. That's mass murder.

Honestly, our standards of "mass" in a crew of thousands must be different.

Tianamen square. Concession accepted.

Different scenario.

Bullshit. You pardoned the Empire's enslavement of Wookies by claiming that they had been classified as non-sapient.

I didn't. The point was that this was not only an Imperial problem, but the base problem is in how the SW world arbitarily defines sentience. I actually don't pardon the whole people of the SW galaxy in this. Just the Empire applied such rulings to a few extra species.

While we talk about genocide, think about this. Every day, countless droids undergo a regular memory-wipe. A complete mind-wipe is roughly the equivalent of Murder w/o Dismemberment becuase the Memories and Learned Individuality that separates a Sentience is all gone. I'd say the Rebels can start stopping genocide from themselves.

And, of course, the billions of people the empire killed to attempt to remain in power don't matter one bit, becaus they were opposing the government.

Compared to the trillions that got killed due to this government's replacement?

And once again Kaz lies abouot the evidence. Palpatine dissolved the senate. In other words, the senate had no power. You've also not demonstrated that dissolving the senate was necessary in any way, shape or form.

He later disbanded the Senate, during ANH - before which he allowed it to exist. Considering how Garm Bel Iblis, Mon Mothma and Leia Organa as well as old Dad Bail Organa had been plotting against the Empire and using their positions, honestly it was a matter of time.

Once again Kaz lies about the evidence. "Influence" as you call it is still the direct control over the thoughts of others. Or are you pretending that the description of how control over people's thoughts occurs due to the force doesn't actually exist in the EU material?

You can slightly influence people without controlling them. Such as the old "Jedi Mind Trick", which is not considered evil.

Maybe it's the fact that it's direct mind-control using abilities derived from hate, rage and anger.

Just influence, poking. Not a full blown control.

Yice strawman Kaz. Try sticking to the point instead of dreaming up more irrelevant arguments. You've yet to actually _show_ that the Rebels recognized the government, even if that were relevant. Why don't you try providing this little thing called evidence.

Try that entire Rebel Alliance Sourcebook, which was supposed to be written as a high level document for Mon Mothma. When you keep using the term "Rebellion" and "Rebel Alliance" even in high level internal documents (and in fact almost anywhere), you tactily concede the legitimacy to your opponent, especially if you write letters (the Declaration of Rebellion) addressing your opponent as "His Majesty". There is a whole different set of language you use for governments you don't recognize.

Too bad. If you want to be a valid government you have to do things that are hard instead of just killing people you don't like.

They are under a impenetrable uber shield invulnerable to normal shield breaking measures.

And you are assuming that the entire population supported the Rebellion. Take a wild guess which one is more likely to be correct. Here's a hint, it's not your viewpoint.

And I was under the delusion Aldie was a democracy. I see, Bail Organa sold out his people. Wait. You have no evidence either way. Yet you postulate Ghorman had a lot of people opposing the Empire, yet Aldie only had a few? Hmm...

And of course, that makes it okay to kill billions of innocents.

It makes using a precision attack more difficult, thus one was chosen with greater collateral damage. See events in the past that shows that cities are Strategic Targets, and may be attacked without particular discrimination.

It's a genocide because they wiped out AN ENTIRE PLANET WITH ALL OF THE PEOPLE ON IT. THE ONLY WAY TO COMPARE IT TO HIROSHIMA WOULD BE IF Little Boy HAD BLOWN UP THE ENTIRE ISLAND OF JAPAN.

I would hardly grant the status of "all of Japan" to Alderaan, which is a city in the state of the galaxy. How does it excuse the similarities, which was a Weapon of Mass Destruction employed in the hopes of stopping a further war?

And I really doubt the US really thought much about the precise yield of the weapon when they dropped it.

Yep. Like I said before, you like to blame the victim. People like you are the wet dreams of dictators everywhere.

What about the victims of your irresponsible act.

Please let me know when you've got actual _evidence_ that the Imperials only targeted people who were actively fighting against them.

I thought the idea is that you are supposed to show evidence otherwise. In any case, the government does use the War Clause to forcefully suppress rebellious planets w/ Rebellious governments. But that's just Civil War. Note that they occupied, not Base Delta Zeroed, most of the planets.

In other words: "Conform or die."

Where does it say that? It merely encourages it, but generally does not force it on people

I asked you to prove it with evidence, and you've once again applied your fanwanking. There is absolutely _nothing_ in your quote to suggest that _any_ action was taken other than immediately killing as many protesters as possible. Thanks for conceding.

Oh, I see. So despite the time gap, you would assume everyone just kind of sat there and did nothing.

Boo fucking hoo. So they are inconvenienced. That's their problem for supporting a government that a large portion of the people don't like.

Halt. What large portion? Aldie the Munitions Dump w/ the traitorous Senators is assumed to have only a few dissidents, but Ghorman, who merely protested, is assumed to have a large dissident population (despite it being early in the day for the Empire - in fact it was still the Republic). Hmm...

Do you not understand the concept of civil disobedience? The POINT is to do something mildly illegal so that the government has to react to you. Of course, in your imaginary Kaz world, any amount of disobedience at all is worthy of immediate execution.

And if you noticed, they weren't gunned down. The governmental warship just stuck to its initial intent. And I don't see how blocking the entire planet's foreign trade and travel services is "mildly illegal". A "major threat to the Order and Best Interests of the State, Party, and People of Ghorman" is more accurate.

Liar. Your quote did not mention wookies. Only your fanwank extension to the quote makes it apply to wookies.

Do you need glasses? What part of this did you miss?

Some clearly sapient species, such as Wookiees and Mon Calamari, were classified as "animals," and thus were not protected from slaving

Liar. You've attempted to pardon the Empire repeatedly on this issue by claiming that they considered Wookies to be non-sapient.

I said that I disagreed with their classification, with all that goes along with it.

Then you wait for them to leave, or get the local police forces to come remove them peacefully. You know, like the way that it's done in countries with legitimate governments on Earth.

Oh, and because the Rebel Alliance didn't bother to mention it happened, you immediately know it must not have happened.

Fanwank. Taxes are the issue listed, and you cannot claim that they were not the issue without making up new evidence out of your ass.

What part are you reading? I said that taxes are the issue, I just said they aren't a killer issue. Some issues are big. Some issues are small.

They don't over taxes always, but it's standard practice for protesters to force the government to deal with them. That's why the decent governments of the world don't kill dozens of protesters when they bereak up protests.

If you just want to force the government to deal with you, have your protest outside the government building, and pester the senior officials as they try to enter.

And of course, the fact that the intention was to kill innocents doesn't matter one bit in Kaz's world.

Oh, and how would anyone know that? All the quote says is that Tarkin landed in spite of the protestors. Really. All they had to do is not be in the path of his frigging landing pads, which isn't so hard, is it? There's no evidence Tarkin said "Darn, not enough squishies" and jumped up again and squashed more. He just landed, on something that was made for landing.

The Chinese ran over students with tanks. Thus the comparison.

You can't dodge a determined tank. The ship landing is a one time proposition. All you guys have to do is not be where the ship lands.

Yes I know that they may be modeling this on Tianammen, but they forgot to include all the factors that made Tianammen such a tragedy.

Strawman. I've never made such a claim. All I've asked is that yor provide some evidence of what, exactly, senators agreed to when they took their position. You don't actually have any such evidence, which is why I've quite correctly labelled your arguments as coming directly from your imagination.

I'd say LOYALTY is a reasonable minimum, would it?

[Stofsk]

So a weak central government which allows regional authorities to build independently governed warfleets and isn't even capable of keeping local political disputes from exploding into interplanetary warfare without the convenient plot-device of a heretofore cautious Thrawn clone overextending himself is not effectively anarchistic?

I hate to nitpick, but it wasn't even a Thrawn clone. It was goddamn con man! I fucking hate the duology. Zahn at his worst.

You are talking about Vision of the Future, right?

[Darth Wong]

So a weak central government which allows regional authorities to build independently governed warfleets and isn't even capable of keeping local political disputes from exploding into interplanetary warfare without the convenient plot-device of a heretofore cautious Thrawn clone overextending himself is not effectively anarchistic?

I hate to nitpick, but it wasn't even a Thrawn clone. It was goddamn con man! I fucking hate the duology. Zahn at his worst.

You are talking about Vision of the Future, right?

Yes. The clone was actually the guardsman, not the conman. He was pulling the strings and inventing the schemes, and he got reckless at the end in order to bring the plotline to fruition and neatly seal up the big hole that was opened up by his earlier schemes. Never mind the fact that the chaos produced by these events would have accomplished his goals neatly without the need to add a pointlessly risky undertaking to the end of it.

[Pcm979]

What I didn't like about it was the 'Thrawn is actually a lovely guy' brainbug it started.

[Stofsk]

What I didn't like about it was the 'Thrawn is actually a lovely guy' brainbug it started.

I hate the "Thrawn always wins!" brainbug it started. Christ, seeing everyone shit their pants out of a rumour just pissed me off. Character-wanking gone too far IMO.

[Illuminatus Primus]

So a weak central government which allows regional authorities to build independently governed warfleets and isn't even capable of keeping local political disputes from exploding into interplanetary warfare without the convenient plot-device of a heretofore cautious Thrawn clone overextending himself is not effectively anarchistic?

To be fair the New Republic had not been the same since Palpatine's brutally effective Operation SHADOW HAND as depicted in Dark Empire. Previously the New Republic's members numbered in the hundreds of thousands; by the Black Fleet crisis, three years later, their membership numbered eleven thousand. As in 1.1% of the Empire's million-member expanse. After Dark Empire they were really just the most powerful single power in the galaxy, as opposed to The State that governed the galaxy, as the Empire had been.

[Graeme Dice]

Keep on relying on strawman distortions and bullshit, Graeme. It suits you.

Fuck off Mike. I have no patience for people who have nothing useful to contribute.

Yes you are, since that is a strawman distortion. No one seriously argues that the Empire is morally flawless.

Bullshit. That's _exactly_ what Kaz is arguing.

What is argued is that it was ultimately better than the alternative, which happens to be the ineffective New Republic.

Assuming all the time, of course, that the Empire is some kind of wonderful place to live, and that the NR is somehow responsible for events that they have no control over.

They were never "beaten". They self-destructed with no central leader, which is the weakness of all Empires.

Yep. In other words, they were beaten.

He had clone bodies and was capable of extending his rule. The Empire fell because of a few key mistakes made at the Battle of Endor, not because the Emperor couldn't have held it together.

At last, somebody who

So a weak central government which allows regional authorities to build independently governed warfleets and isn't even capable of keeping local political disputes from exploding into interplanetary warfare without the convenient plot-device of a heretofore cautious Thrawn clone overextending himself is not effectively anarchistic?

No, it's not anarchistic, since there's plenty of governments to go around, there's just no extremely strong centralized government. Your whining about "plot devices" is also irrelevant.

[Graeme Dice]

Different scenario.

Only in Kaz land, cnocession accepted.

I didn't. The point was that this was not only an Imperial problem, but the base problem is in how the SW world arbitarily defines sentience. I actually don't pardon the whole people of the SW galaxy in this. Just the Empire applied such rulings to a few extra species.

In other words, you claim not to pardon them, then go right ahead and do it anyways.

While we talk about genocide, think about this. Every day, countless droids undergo a regular memory-wipe. A complete mind-wipe is roughly the equivalent of Murder w/o Dismemberment becuase the Memories and Learned Individuality that separates a Sentience is all gone. I'd say the Rebels can start stopping genocide from themselves.

How do you know that droids can be consireded sentient when they get a regular memory wipe. Individualistic behaviour clearly only develops after memory wipes have not taken place for an extremely long time. Further, that both the NR and the Empire have the same policy toward droids does not excuse the Empire's policy towards aliens.

Compared to the trillions that got killed due to this government's replacement?

Why don't you provide the evidence that this number is larger than what would have been killed if the Death Stars had started running around and wiping out entire populations.

He later disbanded the Senate, during ANH - before which he allowed it to exist. Considering how Garm Bel Iblis, Mon Mothma and Leia Organa as well as old Dad Bail Organa had been plotting against the Empire and using their positions, honestly it was a matter of time.

And of course, the fact that three senators were plotting against a corrupt ruler, makes it A-OK to disband the real government.

Just influence, poking. Not a full blown control.

Still not a legitimate way to gain power. At least those species that can influence humans can't hide the fact that they are doing it.

Try that entire Rebel Alliance Sourcebook, which was supposed to be written as a high level document for Mon Mothma.

You are, once again, confusing government that is recognized, with one that has the moral authority to rule.

They are under a impenetrable uber shield invulnerable to normal shield breaking measures.

And here Kaz once again starts making his unsupported assertions and pretending that they are evidence.

And I was under the delusion Aldie was a democracy. I see, Bail Organa sold out his people. Wait.

He certainly sold out a great many of them, unless you feel that people in a democracy are forced to believe everything that their governments believe.

You have no evidence either way. Yet you postulate Ghorman had a lot of people opposing the Empire, yet Aldie only had a few? Hmm...

I postulated no such thing. Even if the population was split 90/10 on Alderaan in favour to the rebels, which isn highly unlikely, the Death Star still killed massive numbers of people.

It makes using a precision attack more difficult, thus one was chosen with greater collateral damage. See events in the past that shows that cities are Strategic Targets, and may be attacked without particular discrimination.

Planets aren't cities. Thanks for playing, but once again Kaz, you're making irrelevant comparisons.

I would hardly grant the status of "all of Japan" to Alderaan, which is a city in the state of the galaxy.

Really? On what grounds do you consider Alderaan to be only a city, other than your desire to minimize the atrocities of the Empire?

How does it excuse the similarities, which was a Weapon of Mass Destruction employed in the hopes of stopping a further war?

Bullshit. Tarkin's own words confirm that the only reason he chose Alderaan was that it would scare more people into submission.

What about the victims of your irresponsible act.

You are not responsible for events that you have no control over, such as the invasion of the Vong decades later.

I thought the idea is that you are supposed to show evidence otherwise.

Wrong. You're claiming that the Imperials only target fighters, thus you'll have to support that claim with evidence.

Where does it say that? It merely encourages it, but generally does not force it on people

How on Earth do you expect anyone to believe that the Empire does not force local government's to change? It even says in your quote that they will do so.

Oh, I see. So despite the time gap, you would assume everyone just kind of sat there and did nothing.

I'm waiting for evidence. It tells us that they were peaceful protesters. The republic was the government and police force, thus it would have been the republic's job to reopen the spaceport if a large amount of the populace supported the protesters.

Halt. What large portion? Aldie the Munitions Dump w/ the traitorous Senators is assumed to have only a few dissidents, but Ghorman, who merely protested, is assumed to have a large dissident population (despite it being early in the day for the Empire - in fact it was still the Republic).

Why don't you stop lying about the evidence Kaz. You have no evidence that Alderaan had a substantial munitions dump. You have no evidence that there was total agreement on Alderaan amongst the population. You have no evidence that the protesters on Ghorman did not represent the wishes of their population, and since local authorities took no action against them, the evidence actually supports that the planet sided with the protesters.

And if you noticed, they weren't gunned down.

Oh good grief you're willing to rationalize anything away in an attempt to keep make your precious empire from looking bad.

The governmental warship just stuck to its initial intent. And I don't see how blocking the entire planet's foreign trade and travel services is "mildly illegal". A "major threat to the Order and Best Interests of the State, Party, and People of Ghorman" is more accurate.

It's mildly illegal because it's nothing more than tresspassing at the very most. If tresspassing is a capital crime in your ideal world, then I don't want any part of it.

I said that I disagreed with their classification, with all that goes along with it.

And then, being the two-faced bastard that you are, you turn right back around and say that this was a valid reason for the Empire to enslave them.

Oh, and because the Rebel Alliance didn't bother to mention it happened, you immediately know it must not have happened.

There is no evidence that local forces took any action whatsoever. This means that any claim that local forces took action is inherently weaker than any claim which says that local forces did not take action.

What part are you reading? I said that taxes are the issue, I just said they aren't a killer issue. Some issues are big. Some issues are small.

Who are you to define what is an important issue for a population?

If you just want to force the government to deal with you, have your protest outside the government building, and pester the senior officials as they try to enter.

Or, when you're dealing with an Imperial power, where such protests won't have any effect, you increase the level of civil disobedience, just like what was required to obtain independence for India.

Oh, and how would anyone know that? All the quote says is that Tarkin landed in spite of the protestors. Really. All they had to do is not be in the path of his frigging landing pads, which isn't so hard, is it?

You can't dodge a determined tank. The ship landing is a one time proposition. All you guys have to do is not be where the ship lands.

You can't dodge a determined starship. The tank running you over is a one time proposition. All you guys have to do is not be in front of the tank.

I'd say LOYALTY is a reasonable minimum, would it?

Not to a government that isn't worthy of loyalty.

[Darth Wong]

Keep on relying on strawman distortions and bullshit, Graeme. It suits you.

Fuck off Mike. I have no patience for people who have nothing useful to contribute.

Funny: I was thinking the same thing about you, asshole.

Yes you are, since that is a strawman distortion. No one seriously argues that the Empire is morally flawless.

Bullshit. That's _exactly_ what Kaz is arguing.

Morally flawless? That's news to me.

What is argued is that it was ultimately better than the alternative, which happens to be the ineffective New Republic.

Assuming all the time, of course, that the Empire is some kind of wonderful place to live, and that the NR is somehow responsible for events that they have no control over.

The outcome is what matters; whether that outcome is through incompetence, negligence, apathy, or malice is irrelevant to the dead and suffering.

They were never "beaten". They self-destructed with no central leader, which is the weakness of all Empires.

Yep. In other words, they were beaten.

In other words, you're a moron. This is like saying that if the United States had a civil war and ended up with a new government afterwards, the US was beaten.

He had clone bodies and was capable of extending his rule. The Empire fell because of a few key mistakes made at the Battle of Endor, not because the Emperor couldn't have held it together.

At last, somebody who

How was that sentence supposed to end?

So a weak central government which allows regional authorities to build independently governed warfleets and isn't even capable of keeping local political disputes from exploding into interplanetary warfare without the convenient plot-device of a heretofore cautious Thrawn clone overextending himself is not effectively anarchistic?

No, it's not anarchistic, since there's plenty of governments to go around, there's just no extremely strong centralized government.

The lack of a strong central government led directly to all of the problems I mentioned, and it is anarchistic. Devolving government down to a local level is big-picture anarchy.

Your whining about "plot devices" is also irrelevant.

Obviously, you missed the whole point about the plot-device inclusion, which was to point out how lucky they were to avoid a massive intersystem war.

[Lord of the Farce]

How do you know that droids can be consireded sentient when they get a regular memory wipe. Individualistic behaviour clearly only develops after memory wipes have not taken place for an extremely long time. Further, that both the NR and the Empire have the same policy toward droids does not excuse the Empire's policy towards aliens.

Except that one of the RA's more obvious propaganda pamphlets involved flaming the Empire for "droid abuse", which among other things imply that regular memory wipe is a criminal act (ref. "A Call To Reason"). Finish this word: "hypoc-".

The Problem of Droid Abuse
　The Empire's campaign of prejudice and hate shows no favoritism. All are equally to be reviled, ridiculed, enslaved, and murdered. This is no less true of the many non-human races than it is of the nonliving. Most of us depend on droids, whether we know it or not. And yet the Imperial attitude toward these highly sensitive, intelligent, and, yes, potentially sentient beings is to smash them, to exile them, and to use them without proper care.
　A droid is more than a machine. A repulsorlift is a machine. A tractor beam generator is a machine. A droid is an entity. Admittedly, some droids are more advanced than others, but they are all highly sophisticated. There is no reason to shun them, to mistreat them, or to fear them.

Compared to the trillions that got killed due to this government's replacement?

Why don't you provide the evidence that this number is larger than what would have been killed if the Death Stars had started running around and wiping out entire populations.

Besides the fact that the Death Star would have had to destroy 182,500 planets identical to Alderaan to do that?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

How do you know that droids can be consireded sentient when they get a regular memory wipe. Individualistic behaviour clearly only develops after memory wipes have not taken place for an extremely long time. Further, that both the NR and the Empire have the same policy toward droids does not excuse the Empire's policy towards aliens.

1) Lobot clearly says in Shield of Lies that "third-degree" droids at least have "self-aware" artificiail intelligence.
2) Babies are not fully sentient when they are six months old or so either. Does that mean it is OK to brainwipe them and start them from zero? The point is that they are potentially sentient, and the process was brutally stopped, thus "killing" them.
3) The point is to blame the Empire, but to locate the root cause of racism, which is embedded in virtually every person in the GFFA.

Why don't you provide the evidence that this number is larger than what would have been killed if the Death Stars had started running around and wiping out entire populations.

You have no proof the Death Star would continue killing enough population to assemble 365 trillion.

And of course, the fact that three senators were plotting against a corrupt ruler, makes it A-OK to disband the real government.

Again, I request your realism. No ruler, corrupt or not, would tolerate such a Senate, therefore, it is not an additional crime to have done so, got it?

Still not a legitimate way to gain power. At least those species that can influence humans can't hide the fact that they are doing it.

Yeah, you are going to be fully aware of what's happening when you are under the influence of charisma or pheromones, and they are going to tell you "You really wouldn't have agreed with my stupid plan, but you are too much under the thrall of my charisma to notice all the logical flaws in it."

You are, once again, confusing government that is recognized, with one that has the moral authority to rule.

Nice, now you are shifting your step from legitimacy to "moral authority."

And here Kaz once again starts making his unsupported assertions and pretending that they are evidence.

The resistance of Aldie's shield was estimated by the amount of time it deflected the SL beam versus its estimated energy content (which I know you have no contention with). That gives a number in the 1E37J range or better. We have some idea of the yields of the various normal shield-breaking weapons, none of which are over E32J range, including even the Eclipse superlasers. Ergo...

He certainly sold out a great many of them, unless you feel that people in a democracy are forced to believe everything that their governments believe.

They aren't forced, but since a democratic government (the supposed advantage) is that it answers to the people, if less than 50% support the Rebels and Bail and his government does it anyway, it kind of betrays the purpose of the democracy, doesn't it?

I postulated no such thing. Even if the population was split 90/10 on Alderaan in favour to the rebels, which isn highly unlikely, the Death Star still killed massive numbers of people.

Granted on the "massive number of people" part.

Planets aren't cities. Thanks for playing, but once again Kaz, you're making irrelevant comparisons.

They are kind of a wierd mix. Analogies don't fit perfectly on such dfferent scales. However, Aldie's official population (2 billion) is so small compared to say Coruscant's population or the entire galaxy's population that if we scale Imperial Country = Galaxy, Alderaan qualifies more as a town than a city.

Bullshit. Tarkin's own words confirm that the only reason he chose Alderaan was that it would scare more people into submission.

Now, isn't that kind of the same as "stopping another war?" Tarkin's move was a high-handed effort at deterrence. The nuclear bomb was alsoa weapon intended to scare Japan into submission, you know.

You are not responsible for events that you have no control over, such as the invasion of the Vong decades later.

We are still on the Ghorman people sitting on the landing pads here. You don't need to traverse too fast.

Wrong. You're claiming that the Imperials only target fighters, thus you'll have to support that claim with evidence.

That's the default. You are also demanding a proof of a negative.

How on Earth do you expect anyone to believe that the Empire does not force local government's to change? It even says in your quote that they will do so.

Only occasionally. Presumably, only the worst-behaved.

I'm waiting for evidence. It tells us that they were peaceful protesters. The republic was the government and police force, thus it would have been the republic's job to reopen the spaceport if a large amount of the populace supported the protesters.

What happened to the local police? You have no eivdence that a "large amount" of the populance supported the protesters. I bet most people just wanted their spaceport back.

Why don't you stop lying about the evidence Kaz. You have no evidence that Alderaan had a substantial munitions dump.

ANH novelization, where they clearly state Alderaan is the primary source of munitions for the Rebels. It has been quoted several times in this thread. I think in the Omnibus it was P.114, while in my book it was P.129.

You have no evidence that there was total agreement on Alderaan amongst the population.

I never said "total agreement." I am just postulating over 50%.

You have no evidence that the protesters on Ghorman did not represent the wishes of their population,

Notice how in your demands, you already have put your own assumptions in them?

and since local authorities took no action against them, the evidence actually supports that the planet sided with the protesters.

In that case, they are utterly irresponsible. Even if you quietly oppose the new taxes (extra taxes are never welcome), as law enforcement you just don't let protestors get away with blocking all your trade.

Oh good grief you're willing to rationalize anything away in an attempt to keep make your precious empire from looking bad.

Change "bad" into "so bad" and you would have the idea.

It's mildly illegal because it's nothing more than tresspassing at the very most. If tresspassing is a capital crime in your ideal world, then I don't want any part of it.

Whether trepassing is only "mildly illegal" depends on what you are trepassing on and how much harm are you doing to everyone else. The simple fact is that they are blocking everyone, and have to be forcibly evicted.

There is no evidence that local forces took any action whatsoever. This means that any claim that local forces took action is inherently weaker than any claim which says that local forces did not take action.

I disagree. In the gap, both scenarios are possible. Since an eviction attempt is by far the more plausible scenario in terms of self-interest and interest of the population, it is superior to "the local forces sat back." Especially when your only sources for such accounts is from the Rebel Alliance, who continually miss things, and today, they still insist Aldie doesn't even have a shield (see DESB), despite it being cleanly visible.

If they sat back and did nothing, they are also partially responsible for the disaster. The police are trained to handle such situations. The Naval Troopers and naval warships in general are not trained to handle these things. Honestly, if I'm Tarkin, and I knew there were protestors and they've been blocking those pads for so long and they were still there, I'd be planning a harsher response, coupled with firing of the entire local security department. Because it is clear those local security dolts aren't up to the task. I'd be generous and thinking "The protestors are too ... resistant."

Who are you to define what is an important issue for a population?

A few increased taxes is hardly something to get killed over. Just work harder and move on.

Or, when you're dealing with an Imperial power, where such protests won't have any effect, you increase the level of civil disobedience, just like what was required to obtain independence for India.

So you "increase the level of civil disobedience", eh? Over a few taxes. How does that change the fundamental fact the Ghorman protestor's actions are doing no one any good?

This kind of thing is bluffing. The Imperial government called their bluff.

You can't dodge a determined starship. The tank running you over is a one time proposition. All you guys have to do is not be in front of the tank.

The tank can turn around and try again. However, the starship once landed is landed. Unless you claim that Tarkin went squish-squish like a 7-year-old in an amusement park in one of those "bang down the pop ups" games.

Not to a government that isn't worthy of loyalty.

Too bad, you pledged it anyway.

[Rogue 9]

You have no proof the Death Star would continue killing enough population to assemble 365 trillion.

Given that Alderaan at 2 billion is no doubt one of the least populous of the Inner Systems, and hell, likely the Inner Rim Territories as well, had the Death Star continued to be used it would have racked up a far higher kill count than if all other planets were Alderaan-like in population. Lord of the Farce's statement that the destruction of 182,500 planets would be necessary to equal the Vong invasion's casualties is misleading because the vast majority of the systems in question have higher populations than Alderaan, as evidenced by the fact that the Vong invasion produced so many casualties. (Think about it. Had all the planets in their path been similar to Alderaan in population the casualty count would have been much lower, therefore we may suppose that had the Death Star continued it's aborted rampage through those same systems, it's kill count would also mount higher.)

Again, I request your realism. No ruler, corrupt or not, would tolerate such a Senate, therefore, it is not an additional crime to have done so, got it?

Please, provide the records where Abraham Lincoln dissolved Congress because some of it's members were plotting to secede. Or where Clinton dissolved the House of Representatives for holding impeachment proceedings. Hmmmmmmmm... Or, in fact, where any President has dissolved Congress for corrupt dealings at all.

Yeah, you are going to be fully aware of what's happening when you are under the influence of charisma or pheromones, and they are going to tell you "You really wouldn't have agreed with my stupid plan, but you are too much under the thrall of my charisma to notice all the logical flaws in it."

When in the presence of a Falleen, it's not that hard to know that, hey, Falleen have powerful pheromones. You're not going to be on the lookout for mind control from the human Supreme Chancellor.

Nice, now you are shifting your step from legitimacy to "moral authority."

Because a mandate from the masses is the highest form of authority, and one that Palpatine did not have.

They aren't forced, but since a democratic government (the supposed advantage) is that it answers to the people, if less than 50% support the Rebels and Bail and his government does it anyway, it kind of betrays the purpose of the democracy, doesn't it?

And Palpatine declaring himself Emperor didn't? I like you just blithely ignore that one while leveling recriminations against the Organas.

They are kind of a wierd mix. Analogies don't fit perfectly on such dfferent scales. However, Aldie's official population (2 billion) is so small compared to say Coruscant's population or the entire galaxy's population that if we scale Imperial Country = Galaxy, Alderaan qualifies more as a town than a city.

Yes, we've long known that you hold that murdering billions is okay as long as they make up only a small percentage of the total people. Percentages don't matter. That's two billion people dead, and candycoating it with percentage of population doesn't change that fact.

Now, isn't that kind of the same as "stopping another war?" Tarkin's move was a high-handed effort at deterrence. The nuclear bomb was alsoa weapon intended to scare Japan into submission, you know.

And just look who started that war. You might as well go on and say that the World Trade Center attacks were a form of deterrence by Islamic extremists. Well it didn't work, did it? Neither did the destruction of Alderaan. The Empire has no right to go around levying deterrence when it is the one needing to be deterred. Sadly, there's nothing that can stop it because it doesn't care about it's citizens and Coruscant itself is an impregnable fortress, at least as far as the Alliance is concerned. So, since it won't be deterred, it must be stopped outright. Again, I draw the parallel between Imperial actions and Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda could similarly not be deterred, although deterrence is ineffective in their case for a different reason.

Only occasionally. Presumably, only the worst-behaved.

Oh, come on. You think they underwent massive conquest like they did and then were all nice and left the local governments alone?

What happened to the local police? You have no eivdence that a "large amount" of the populance supported the protesters. I bet most people just wanted their spaceport back.

The local police were evidently doing nothing. Guess who that tells me they support?

I never said "total agreement." I am just postulating over 50%.

Then damn, do something other than destroy the entire planet, Mr. Thought Police. Christ, the Evil Overlord List was right. Evidently the Empire does need to funnel money into R&D so that they aren't limited in options to "hand to hand combat with swords" and "blow up the planet."

otice how in your demands, you already have put your own assumptions in them?

If even the local police won't break up the protest, then it's generally a pretty good indicator of massive local support. I mean, it's not the police's job to work according to the mood of the people; it's their job to enforce the law. If the cops won't risk doing anything or even support the protest themselves then I'd say that's a pretty good indicator that the mood is overwhelmingly in favor of the protesters.

In that case, they are utterly irresponsible. Even if you quietly oppose the new taxes (extra taxes are never welcome), as law enforcement you just don't let protestors get away with blocking all your trade.

And here you were arguing that a seige of Alderaan wouldn't work because the planet could support itself. Well let me know when you make up your mind as to whether interstellar trade is essential or not.

Change "bad" into "so bad" and you would have the idea.

Well given that it is indeed that bad, you have very little case without massive rationalization. Which is what he's saying.

Whether trepassing is only "mildly illegal" depends on what you are trepassing on and how much harm are you doing to everyone else. The simple fact is that they are blocking everyone, and have to be forcibly evicted.

There are ways besides dropping a fuggin' starship on them.

A few increased taxes is hardly something to get killed over. Just work harder and move on.

Let's try the entire American Revolution, shall we?

So you "increase the level of civil disobedience", eh? Over a few taxes. How does that change the fundamental fact the Ghorman protestor's actions are doing no one any good?

This kind of thing is bluffing. The Imperial government called their bluff.

Except they obviously weren't bluffing. Neither was Gandhi. The difference is that the British government wasn't willing to resort to executing Gandhi. In the Empire he would have been dragged out and shot.

Too bad, you pledged it anyway.

Bail Organa was a Senator in the Old Republic. He swore loyalty to the Republic, not the Emperor. The Emperor destroyed the Republic. You do the math.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

General

You have no proof the Death Star would continue killing enough population to assemble 365 trillion.

Given that Alderaan at 2 billion is no doubt one of the least populous of the Inner Systems, and hell, likely the Inner Rim Territories as well, had the Death Star continued to be used it would have racked up a far higher kill count than if all other planets were Alderaan-like in population.

Nice, so you, without evidence, assume that the Death Star would not only have to be used again, but used so many times it'd begin to even out a 365 trillion deficit?

Please, provide the records where Abraham Lincoln dissolved Congress because some of it's members were plotting to secede.

At least they seceded, rather than tried to stay on. That's having a tiny bit of honor.

Or where Clinton dissolved the House of Representatives for holding impeachment proceedings.

Isn't impeachment part of a legalized government action, as compared to taking government funds and giving it to Rebels.

Hmmmmmmmm... Or, in fact, where any President has dissolved Congress for corrupt dealings at all.

Umm, normal corrupt dealings are hardly in the same league as giving that money to the Rebels.

When in the presence of a Falleen, it's not that hard to know that, hey, Falleen have powerful pheromones. You're not going to be on the lookout for mind control from the human Supreme Chancellor.

So it is the Falleen's responsibility if his opponent, like the hapless Princess Leia in SOTE, doesn't realize the full power of his pheromones and got influenced that way?

Because a mandate from the masses is the highest form of authority, and one that Palpatine did not have.

'Cept the planets are still sending him Senators.

And Palpatine declaring himself Emperor didn't? I like you just blithely ignore that one while leveling recriminations against the Organas.

The Empire never claims it is a democracy.

Only occasionally. Presumably, only the worst-behaved.

Oh, come on. You think they underwent massive conquest like they did and then were all nice and left the local governments alone?

Why not? They already pledged the loyalty to the new government. An immediate replacement is not practical. Less than 1 in 80 are even "modified", let alone completely twisted.

Aldie

And just look who started that war.

The Rebels. Never get that wrong. The British might have had something to do with the American willingness to fight but it was still the Americans that started the American Revoluton.

I never said "total agreement." I am just postulating over 50%.

Then damn, do something other than destroy the entire planet, Mr. Thought Police. Christ, the Evil Overlord List was right. Evidently the Empire does need to funnel money into R&D so that they aren't limited in options to "hand to hand combat with swords" and "blow up the planet."

I find it very cute how the anti-Imperial crowd just keeps thinking "There is another way. There must be." They then propose methods without seeing the reality of the particular situation. Worst of all, they would then admit even if their method failed and then the Empire blew up the planet, they still aren't mollified in any way.

Ghorman

The local police were evidently doing nothing. Guess who that tells me they support?

No, you imagined, in the blank spot available, that the police did nothing and most of the poeple support them disrupting their business trips and regular trading processes.

If even the local police won't break up the protest, then it's generally a pretty good indicator of massive local support. I mean, it's not the police's job to work according to the mood of the people; it's their job to enforce the law.

Thanks for acknowledging that.

If the cops won't risk doing anything or even support the protest themselves then I'd say that's a pretty good indicator that the mood is overwhelmingly in favor of the protesters.

You sure that it wasn't "They tried, and failed?" That's the more likely move. Even if they support the people, they are still obliged to protect the more normal rights of travel, and clear at least some of the pads, so the people who really need it can still work, and Tarkin can land and get his taxes.

And here you were arguing that a seige of Alderaan wouldn't work because the planet could support itself. Well let me know when you make up your mind as to whether interstellar trade is essential or not.

False dilemma. You can beseige a city and the city could be self-sufficient because it can provide the essentials itself, but its trade would suffer. Here, they are simply cutting their economic throat themselves.

And you are simply evading the point about their responsibility. Not everything the police does has to be popular.

Well given that it is indeed that bad, you have very little case without massive rationalization. Which is what he's saying.

In the scenarios you painted from the blank spot, yes.

There are ways besides dropping a fuggin' starship on them.

Not dropping, lowering. If I were Tarkin, I'd be thinking they'd be able to get out of the way of those footsteps.

Let's try the entire American Revolution, shall we?

There were a few other things in that as I recall, and Nice trying to use an exception to override the rule. Are you contending that people generally go and sit themselves on runways and cause massive civil disobedience every time the government raises taxes a bit? Rather than go, "Oh, dang, how I just hate new taxes" and move on?

Except they obviously weren't bluffing. Neither was Gandhi. The difference is that the British government wasn't willing to resort to executing Gandhi. In the Empire he would have been dragged out and shot.

More likely, the Empire would satisfy itself with just dispersing his demonstrations.

Bail Organa was a Senator in the Old Republic. He swore loyalty to the Republic, not the Emperor. The Emperor destroyed the Republic. You do the math.

If you don't like the new affair of things, do like the Confederates, secede, and leave your desk. You have that uber shield, so at least you won't be wiped out (they didn't have the DS then).

[Lord of the Farce]

Lord of the Farce's statement that the destruction of 182,500 planets would be necessary to equal the Vong invasion's casualties is misleading because the vast majority of the systems in question have higher populations than Alderaan, as evidenced by the fact that the Vong invasion produced so many casualties.

How is using straight math to state how many planets identical to Alderaan would have to be destroyed to equal Yuuzhan Vong casualties missleading? Would you say that someone pointing out how many Hiroshima-level nuke it would take to equal the Tsar Bomba's yield is missleading?

You know what? Fine, let's just assume that the average population of the million main planets of the galaxy is 500 billion (generous, if we were to take the 1 trillion for Coruscant at face value). We are still talking about 730 planets.

... Or almost TWO-FUCKING-YEARS worth of non-stop firing by the Death Star.

[Rogue 9]

That's assuming the Death Star alone. Every ship in the fleet Star Destroyer sized and up is capable of laying a BDZ on a planet, and such measures are hardly outside the Empire's SOP. The Empire makes it it's business to kill people at the drop of a hat; just look at Owen and Beru Lars. Destroying the planet isn't the only way to kill people, and the Empire did a lot of killing sans Death Star.