Empire VS. Vong

[Knife]

Quick math;

http://www.seds.org/messier/m/m031.html

If the Andromeda Galaxy is roughly 2.9 million ly away (am I reading 2900kly right?) and...

http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~js/ast122/lectures/lec25.html

And if our own is roughly 80,000 ly.

If you take the fact that Darth Maul traveled roughly halfway across the SW galaxy in a day, then traveling roughly 40,000 LY in a day would enable you to travel 2.9 million LY's in 72.5 years.

While technically 'generations' it doesn't exactly fit with how the Vong view their long trip and the mythology of the Vong and the fact that they forgot so much as to what and who they were.

That would be 72.5 days.

Maul traveled 40,000ly in 1 day...

2,900,000ly / 40,000ly = 72.5 days

EDIT: The SW galaxy is 120,000ly, at least that is what it is supposed to say in the SW:E. So Maul actually traveled 60,000ly in a day.

2,900,000ly / 60,000ly = 48.3 days

Bah, I knew I screwed something up.

Even better still, I suppose. The Vong didn't use hyperdrive or darkspace or what ever to get here. Perhaps there are reasons as to why hyperspace dosn't work outside of a galaxy, thus creation of some sort of 'structure' to explain this reason is why they have this hyperspace barrier. But having a 'hyperspace barrier' doesn't mean that barrier would stop someone from driving on through with ion engines.

[Illuminatus Primus]

No, we know what hyperspace is from AOTC ICS. Its not a debatable point; its not a medium, so there physically cannot be a barrier.

And how does the fact you could get to a local galaxy in a couple months refute the Vong's "generations" spiel? Could it be they have been following Sekot across the cosmos that long?

[Tychu]

The Vong didnt have hyperspace tech before they came to the SW galaxy there were traveling around in aging, dying worldships

[Knife]

No, we know what hyperspace is from AOTC ICS. Its not a debatable point; its not a medium, so there physically cannot be a barrier.

I was implying more of a pycological barrier. And I admit, its just a thought. The Vong left their galaxy and used something besides hyperdrive to get to the SW galaxy. However, advanced scouts and infiltration units got there in excess of 50 years before the worldships.

The ICS says ; Hyperdrives allow voyages through an eerie realm called hyperspace- i.e. the ordinary universe viewed from a ship travelling faster than the speed of light. Hyperdrives adjust faster-than-light "hypermatter" particles to allow a jump to light-speed without changing the complex mass of energy of the ship.

I agree that there isn't any subspace or 30th dimention that the hyperdrive is using, thus no barrier type thing. But for what ever reason, the Vong were not using hyperdrive/darkspace to travel between galaxies. Easiest explanation I can think of is that for whatever reason, hyperdrive don't work in intergalactic space. So if hyperdrive don't work, then there is a 'barrier' in that it don't work. Not that there is a physical barrier.

And how does the fact you could get to a local galaxy in a couple months refute the Vong's "generations" spiel? Could it be they have been following Sekot across the cosmos that long?

They didn't want to find it. They had orders or stories or myths or whatever, to keep away from the damned thing. Hell, according the the books, the only reason their went to the SW galaxy is because Shirmira saw they were dying and usurped the prior Supreme Overlord and headed for the SW Galaxy, implying it was closest.

[Knife]

The Vong didnt have hyperspace tech before they came to the SW galaxy there were traveling around in aging, dying worldships

The fact that the coralskippers followed Luke and company from Serindipal or was it Heske(sp?) to Lando's new little mining/colony and attacks them, refutes your assertion.

[UCBooties]

Ok, first off, I'm going to concede to Ghost Rider's point about the nature of debates and let this drop with an apology to anyone I pissed off with my ignorance. Hopefully this will demonstrate that I can, on occasion, be reasoned with.

Now, as to the question of why the Vong did not travel in hyperspace while traveling between galaxies, it was noted in another post regarding the barrier that many Vong worldships did not have hyperdrive capabilites, so in order to make the trip they had to go for the Battlestar Galactica style uber trek to legendary promised land.

And the Yuuzhan Vong spent generations travelling, because most of their worldships were NOT hyperspace-capable and some of the older ones even had to rotate to produce gravity, because they didn´t have enough DovinBasals.

Please note, the above quote comes from Milky Way Post-Conquest over in the Star Wars versus Star Trek forum.

So yes, the Vong did have Dark Space (their term for hyperspace or a hyperspace analogue) technology before coming to the SW galaxy, they just couldn't use it for the entire convoy. This probably explains how they were able to send scouts and agents ahead. It's no big thing to send up a hyperspace equiped expiditionary force if the main group won't even be within spitting distance for another thirty years. In fact, it seems rather reasonable. Send up early reconasiance to check in and report back, maybe test the waters a bit militarily, then have them jump back and report. If things look favorable, then soldier on and take things to plan in thirty years. If it apears that a major ass-whomping awaits, declare that the galaxy is not the promised land and give it a nice wide berth in search of greener pastures.

Of course by this point, most worldships were falling apart and the warrior clans had become so dominant and obsessed with internicine power strugles, searching for greener pastures would have been the death warrent of the entire species. Shimra realised this and declared the SW galaxy to be the promised land out of survivalist neccesity. Good move on his part, it almost worked.

[GeneralTacticus]

Question: If the Vong were unable to use hyperdrive for the major part of their migration, did they use some other form of FTL, or did they have to go STL? If so, wouldn't it take them millions of years to arrive? And wouldn't time dilation and such cause some serious problems?

[Lord of the Farce]

So yes, the Vong did have Dark Space (their term for hyperspace or a hyperspace analogue) technology before coming to the SW galaxy, they just couldn't use it for the entire convoy. This probably explains how they were able to send scouts and agents ahead. It's no big thing to send up a hyperspace equiped expiditionary force if the main group won't even be within spitting distance for another thirty years. In fact, it seems rather reasonable.

Hey, wait a second. If most of the worldships wasn't hyper(/dark)space capable, then wouldn't most of them still be stuck at the Outer Rims?

[Illuminatus Primus]

I was implying more of a pycological barrier. And I admit, its just a thought. The Vong left their galaxy and used something besides hyperdrive to get to the SW galaxy. However, advanced scouts and infiltration units got there in excess of 50 years before the worldships.

The ICS says ; Hyperdrives allow voyages through an eerie realm called hyperspace- i.e. the ordinary universe viewed from a ship travelling faster than the speed of light. Hyperdrives adjust faster-than-light "hypermatter" particles to allow a jump to light-speed without changing the complex mass of energy of the ship.

I agree that there isn't any subspace or 30th dimention that the hyperdrive is using, thus no barrier type thing. But for what ever reason, the Vong were not using hyperdrive/darkspace to travel between galaxies. Easiest explanation I can think of is that for whatever reason, hyperdrive don't work in intergalactic space. So if hyperdrive don't work, then there is a 'barrier' in that it don't work. Not that there is a physical barrier.

No, tachyons travel in intergalactic space just as fine as intragalactic space. The "no hyperspace between galaxies" is not stated and hardly a foregone or automatic conclusion (see my earlier post), and is thus undesirable since it implicitly contradicts other canon.

They didn't want to find it. They had orders or stories or myths or whatever, to keep away from the damned thing. Hell, according the the books, the only reason their went to the SW galaxy is because Shirmira saw they were dying and usurped the prior Supreme Overlord and headed for the SW Galaxy, implying it was closest.

I can scarcely believe that; unless Yuuzhan'tar's "offspring" numbered in the millions or something, I can't see how they could possibly just "happen" upon the one galaxy where Sekot had gone.

And they could've been galaxy-hoping for generations just fine, just then at the end since their ships were degrading they diverted to the then-nearest galaxy, the GFFA. That hardly implies that they came from a local galaxy at all, in fact it would tend to refute that.

[UCBooties]

So yes, the Vong did have Dark Space (their term for hyperspace or a hyperspace analogue) technology before coming to the SW galaxy, they just couldn't use it for the entire convoy. This probably explains how they were able to send scouts and agents ahead. It's no big thing to send up a hyperspace equiped expiditionary force if the main group won't even be within spitting distance for another thirty years. In fact, it seems rather reasonable.

Hey, wait a second. If most of the worldships wasn't hyper(/dark)space capable, then wouldn't most of them still be stuck at the Outer Rims?

Good point, but I think it was adressed in the series. When the militarty ships began cuting nice big swaths throught the outer rim, they seeded hundreds of worlds with biotech growth, allowing them to increase their military arsenal, but also allowing them to upgrade some of their worldships. They also grew new ships so they could destroyed the new world ship they were building, and a lot of Vong died in failing world ships because of that. but the main point is, once they got to, and captured part of the outer rim, they could start accomidating people on dying ships and upgrading non hyperspace ships which could accept the upgrade.

[Lord Pounder]

Can you quote a source stating they where upgrading the worldships? The only thing i ever saw them do was build a new one, which Kyp Durron plotted to destroy. It's not in a Vongs nature to upgrade, from what i've seen the idea of upgrading is seen as heresy.

[Knife]

No, tachyons travel in intergalactic space just as fine as intragalactic space. The "no hyperspace between galaxies" is not stated and hardly a foregone or automatic conclusion (see my earlier post), and is thus undesirable since it implicitly contradicts other canon.


I can scarcely believe that; unless Yuuzhan'tar's "offspring" numbered in the millions or something, I can't see how they could possibly just "happen" upon the one galaxy where Sekot had gone.

And they could've been galaxy-hoping for generations just fine, just then at the end since their ships were degrading they diverted to the then-nearest galaxy, the GFFA. That hardly implies that they came from a local galaxy at all, in fact it would tend to refute that.

Your probably right, I just thought its interesting that they didn't use hyperspace or that it took them so god damn long to get here even with some sort of hyperspace and that it'll tie in nicely with the anti-hyperspace barrier thingy.

However, I just got done reading the series, and how I came away from it thinking was that it was more or less a big coincidence that the Vong came to the same Galaxy as Sekot. Or atleast if they were meant to, it was a big 'destiney' type thing that they themselves were totally unaware of.

The prior Supreme Overlord didn't want to come to the SW galaxy. He was going to pass it up. Shimira (under the influence posssible by Omni at that point) usurped him and commanded that the Vong attack the SW galaxy.

[JME2]

The prior Supreme Overlord didn't want to come to the SW galaxy. He was going to pass it up. Shimira (under the influence posssible by Omni at that point) usurped him and commanded that the Vong attack the SW galaxy.

Onimi had indeed taken control of Shimmra at that point. He knew from controlling Shimmra -- who had access to the Supreme Overlord Quoreal -- that Quoreal was prepared to abandon the plans of invasion thanks to the discovery of the living world, the anathema of their culture.

He knew that unless action was taken, the Yuuzhan Vong would die out in the intergalactic void. Thus, he pulled Shimmra's strings and boom, Quoreal is taken down and Shimmra not only conceals the existence of Zonama Sekot from the Vong, but approves the invasion plans and gets himself assigned to Shimmra's court to continue controlling his puppet and to direct the saving of their race.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Incidentally, I don't recall it ever being said they did not travel through Darkspace between galaxies; just that when the dovin basals had not "locked on to" a destination they drifted on the intergalactic gas and light.

[UCBooties]

Can you quote a source stating they where upgrading the worldships? The only thing i ever saw them do was build a new one, which Kyp Durron plotted to destroy. It's not in a Vongs nature to upgrade, from what i've seen the idea of upgrading is seen as heresy.

Not having my NJO books on campus, I'll have to concede by lack of evidence. However, they must have had someway of transporting Vong from failing ships to viable planets. anyone have quotes to adress this point?

[NRS Guardian]

The reason the Vong take so long to get to the SW galaxy could be due to the nature of hypersapce travel in that if you want to know where you're going you need to come out of hyper and take some readings because you're going so fast. Also, since the Vong would essentially be flying blind through the inter-galactic region since they probably weren't exploring it before they had to travel through it to reach a new galaxy they probably needed to scout ahead to make sure they don't run into a rogue planet or black hole or even a galaxy. Finally, to ensure they don't pass a galaxy without knowing it while in hyper they probably stopped regularly to take sensor reading or whatever.

[The Original Nex]

So yes, the Vong did have Dark Space (their term for hyperspace or a hyperspace analogue) technology before coming to the SW galaxy, they just couldn't use it for the entire convoy. This probably explains how they were able to send scouts and agents ahead. It's no big thing to send up a hyperspace equiped expiditionary force if the main group won't even be within spitting distance for another thirty years. In fact, it seems rather reasonable.

Hey, wait a second. If most of the worldships wasn't hyper(/dark)space capable, then wouldn't most of them still be stuck at the Outer Rims?

I was under the impression that the Worldship's Dovin Basals (or whatever makes the jump to Darkspace) were dead or dying, and they had to take more time to grow more, which is why they were stuck at the Outer Rim during the initial stages of the invasion. Perhaps the warships were younger, gown aboard the Worldships at somepoint during the transit which is why they had no such problems....

[Lord Pounder]

So yes, the Vong did have Dark Space (their term for hyperspace or a hyperspace analogue) technology before coming to the SW galaxy, they just couldn't use it for the entire convoy. This probably explains how they were able to send scouts and agents ahead. It's no big thing to send up a hyperspace equiped expiditionary force if the main group won't even be within spitting distance for another thirty years. In fact, it seems rather reasonable.

Hey, wait a second. If most of the worldships wasn't hyper(/dark)space capable, then wouldn't most of them still be stuck at the Outer Rims?

I was under the impression that the Worldship's Dovin Basals (or whatever makes the jump to Darkspace) were dead or dying, and they had to take more time to grow more, which is why they were stuck at the Outer Rim during the initial stages of the invasion. Perhaps the warships were younger, gown aboard the Worldships at somepoint during the transit which is why they had no such problems....

No the Worldships where not scattered all over the place because they'd have been vunerable, there was a worldship in orbit of Courscant IIRC.

They stayed on the outer rim to secure a beach head.

[Serapindal]

Eer... the reason leaving a galaxy is very hard is because the gravity of the galaxy will pull you back almost always. That's why space shuttles have to go so fast, because if they don't, the gravity of the earth will pull them back. You know how much bigger a galaxy is than one planet, so it has an unfathomable amount of gravity.

Who said that Kamino was not in the SW galaxy because it was past the Rishi maze?!?! That's completely wrong! The Rishi maze is far away from the core, but not out of the galaxy. It just meant that Kamino was near the edge of the galaxy...

[Ghost Rider]

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Read the annoucements.

Lock.