Germans Demand Queen War Apology

[Raptor 597]

If your point was that the Red Army was about as civilized, fine, I agree.

But Dresden was WITHIN German borders. It contained people who KNEW what the Nazis wanted, KNEW their tactics, had a good chance of KNOWING about the camps... and chose to remain. That make them Nazi supporters, in my book.

I'd hate to nitpick. It's not they had a choice to leave; it was either west or eastwards towards the Red Army. The Germans wouldn't have accepted people clogging the roads unless as historicall (East Prussians). Many of these people were being force fed propoaganda for 10-13 years, but each of them defintely felt they needed to support their fighting relatives in any way possible like today. They would have felt worse than getting murdered by refusing to stay than abandoning their friends, family members, and comrades.

[Mange]

All of them? You do know that all germans weren't Nazis. And no, no one deserves that. Not jews, not Americans, not anyone. It was necessary, but they didn't deserve it.

You DO know the vast majority supported the Nazis, right? Even if they weren't card-carrying members. And yes, Nazi supporters deserve anything.

You should learn history before you spout. In March 1933, two months after Hitler became Reichskanzler, 66 % of the German voters voted against the National Socialists. This was done despite the harassment by the SA and despite the fact that the press was silenced. Even if NSDAP was the single biggest party in the Reichstag, the Reichstag was still dominated by the other various political parties (the Social Democrats, Communists, the Catholic Liberal Party, the German National Party etc.) which worked as a brake. Hitler wanted to suspend the Reichstag, but was unable to gain the 2/3 majority that was needed to change the constitution. After the burning of the Reichstag (which was orchestrated by the Nazis), Hitler was able to use the burning of the Reichstag (that took place in February 1933) to trick President Hindenburg to sign an Emergency Decree which he used to suspend the Reichstag and declare the NSDAP the only legal party. The point of the matter is that the National Socialists never gained majority. Support for the Nazis increased after Hitler ripped the Versailles treaty in two and made Germany a superpower, but one must not also forget that the Germans was used to follow authorities. The German people never wanted a war, and when the tide turned, support was diminishing, as shown by the student demonstrations against the nazis in Munich 1943. Again, the crimes ordered by Hitler and executed by the Wehrmacht, SS, Gestapo and the Einsatzgruppen wasn't what the german people in general was aware of.

[Gandalf]

You should learn history before you spout. In March 1933, two months after Hitler became Reichskanzler, 66 % of the German voters voted against the National Socialists. This was done despite the harassment by the SA and despite the fact that the press was silenced. Even if NSDAP was the single biggest party in the Reichstag, the Reichstag was still dominated by the other various political parties (the Social Democrats, Communists, the Catholic Liberal Party, the German National Party etc.) which worked as a brake. Hitler wanted to suspend the Reichstag, but was unable to gain the 2/3 majority that was needed to change the constitution. After the burning of the Reichstag (which was orchestrated by the Nazis), Hitler was able to use the burning of the Reichstag (that took place in February 1933) to trick President Hindenburg to sign an Emergency Decree which he used to suspend the Reichstag and declare the NSDAP the only legal party. The point of the matter is that the National Socialists never gained majority. Support for the Nazis increased after Hitler ripped the Versailles treaty in two and made Germany a superpower, but one must not also forget that the Germans was used to follow authorities. The German people never wanted a war, and when the tide turned, support was diminishing, as shown by the student demonstrations against the nazis in Munich 1943. Again, the crimes ordered by Hitler and executed by the Wehrmacht, SS, Gestapo and the Einsatzgruppen wasn't what the german people in general was aware of.

I thought they never conclusively proved it was the Nazis behind that, but instead a mentally-ill Communist?

[BabelHuber]

I can’t really blame the various Eastern European nations for expelling Germans, having Germans within you borders had proven to be a rather dangerous liability.

So when you shoot my brother, it's okay that I shoot your brother. After all, he has proven that your family is rather dangerous.

[Mange]

You should learn history before you spout. In March 1933, two months after Hitler became Reichskanzler, 66 % of the German voters voted against the National Socialists. This was done despite the harassment by the SA and despite the fact that the press was silenced. Even if NSDAP was the single biggest party in the Reichstag, the Reichstag was still dominated by the other various political parties (the Social Democrats, Communists, the Catholic Liberal Party, the German National Party etc.) which worked as a brake. Hitler wanted to suspend the Reichstag, but was unable to gain the 2/3 majority that was needed to change the constitution. After the burning of the Reichstag (which was orchestrated by the Nazis), Hitler was able to use the burning of the Reichstag (that took place in February 1933) to trick President Hindenburg to sign an Emergency Decree which he used to suspend the Reichstag and declare the NSDAP the only legal party. The point of the matter is that the National Socialists never gained majority. Support for the Nazis increased after Hitler ripped the Versailles treaty in two and made Germany a superpower, but one must not also forget that the Germans was used to follow authorities. The German people never wanted a war, and when the tide turned, support was diminishing, as shown by the student demonstrations against the nazis in Munich 1943. Again, the crimes ordered by Hitler and executed by the Wehrmacht, SS, Gestapo and the Einsatzgruppen wasn't what the german people in general was aware of.

I thought they never conclusively proved it was the Nazis behind that, but instead a mentally-ill Communist?

While the mentally ill Dutch communist Van der Lubbe was indeed found guilty to having set the blaze, he was merely a scape-goat (not to forget the fact that he was nearly blind since youth) and most circumstantial evidence points to the nazis. Van der Lubbe had boasted at a Bierstube before the event that he would set fire to several prominent buildings, a.o. the Reichstag. This caught the attention of the nazis and which fitted perfectly in Hitler's plans to gain total control of the state. The leader of the Berlin SA, Karl Ernst (who also worked as a deputy at the Reichstag), knew that a tunnel led directly to the Reichstag basement from Görings' official Berlin residence (Hermann Göring was speaker of the Reichstag). During the Nürnberg trials, general Halder (who was the German Chief of Staff during the initial stages of the Second World War) testified that Göring during the dinner on Hitler's birthday April 20th 1942 exclaimed that "'The only one who really knows about the Reichstag is I, because I'm the one who set it on fire." and Karl Ernst told a Dutch nazi sympathiser that "If I said yes, I would be a bloody fool, if I said no I would be a bloody liar."

During the Nacht der langen Messer (the Night of the Long Knives) that took place April 29-30 1934 (fourteen months after the burning of the Reichstag), in which the nazis purged their ranks from unwanted individuals, Karl Ernst was murdered.

To summarize, no direct evidence, but quite a lot of circumstantial evidence.

[TheDarkling]

So when you shoot my brother, it's okay that I shoot your brother. After all, he has proven that your family is rather dangerous.

That would be a false analogy, it wasn't "all Germans are bad" situation but "Germans in our borders make us a target" (although now do there was a factor of revenge).

If I shot your brother because he was sharing a house with my brother then you would be wise to not share a house with any of my relatives in the future since I am in the habit of going around killing people and stealing their houses if they have a relative of mine living in the house.

In other words, Germany had used Germans living in other lands as an excuse to go and invade other lands, it is therefore a wise precaution to expel those Germans back to Germany.
It is unfortunate but if expelling a few ethnic Germans saves your nation then it is an understandable thing to do.

I wouldn't necessarily do the same thing myself but I can certainly understand the reasoning behind doing it.

[Ma Deuce]

Again, the crimes ordered by Hitler and executed by the Wehrmacht, SS, Gestapo and the Einsatzgruppen wasn't what the german people in general was aware of.

Actually, there is ample evidence that the average German was well aware of the death camps and what went on in them...

[Tribun]

Again, the crimes ordered by Hitler and executed by the Wehrmacht, SS, Gestapo and the Einsatzgruppen wasn't what the german people in general was aware of.

Actually, there is ample evidence that the average German was well aware of the death camps and what went on in them...

If you think that, I tell you that you are wrong.

Would you belive a wild rumor that was told under the hand, that there was killing of people in industrial scale? Obviously not. Also they had other proplems than to think about such rumors.

[Frank Hipper]

So when you shoot my brother, it's okay that I shoot your brother. After all, he has proven that your family is rather dangerous.

That would be a false analogy, it wasn't "all Germans are bad" situation but "Germans in our borders make us a target" (although now do there was a factor of revenge).

If I shot your brother because he was sharing a house with my brother then you would be wise to not share a house with any of my relatives in the future since I am in the habit of going around killing people and stealing their houses if they have a relative of mine living in the house.

In other words, Germany had used Germans living in other lands as an excuse to go and invade other lands, it is therefore a wise precaution to expel those Germans back to Germany.
It is unfortunate but if expelling a few ethnic Germans saves your nation then it is an understandable thing to do.

I wouldn't necessarily do the same thing myself but I can certainly understand the reasoning behind doing it.

This lesson in Ethnic Cleansing has been brought to you by assumption that the Third Reich is a reliable predictor for German behavior as a whole.

[BabelHuber]

That would be a false analogy, it wasn't "all Germans are bad"

The vast majority of the Germans had to leave the country. About 11 millions IIRC.

A lot of western allied personal was disgusted when they saw the shape in which the displaced persons from the east arrived. They had the impression that the communists didn't take revenge on the Nazis, but on the weak, women and old.

Of course those where the people which tcould be punished much more easily since they were everywhere available, and a lot of people simply wanted to take revenge. But this doesn't make it right, you know.

On the one hand it is a moot point to discuss, because the past is the past, but on the other hand wrong is wrong.