Now the Chinese are against Bush?

[Yarcamos]

Yarcamos:

Here's your challenge. Show the Times Changed on September the Eleventh. Show how. Show why we should ignore the wealth of terrorist attacks in the world and declare the 'world changed' then. Or concede nothing did. I await your response.

America had never had a direct attack on it's own soil that killed such a large amount of people that the events of 9/11 did. Are you trying to portray that the world did NOT change? Are you trying to portray that we should have done everything the same as we did prior to the attacks? How exactly would that have worked?

[Darth Wong]

So... you choose to ignore the rest of these people at least taking this somewhat seriously and single me out as a "pedantic hatfucker?" Pray tell... why?

Because you tried to make an argument out of my joke, you whiny shithead. That's what I meant by taking it seriously.

There's another thread in this forum dealing with Bush's arrogance toward the Supreme Court and its rulings on treatment of prisoners already, fucktard. You see that mouse sitting on your computer desk? Use it.

Christ, my bad. I'll check it out. Why the hell are you so anal about it. If you would have simply reffered me to it I would still have checked it out. You don't have to act like an ass to get what you want.

Why the hell are you so stupid about it? You could have simply LOOKED AT THE FUCKING FORUM before spouting off about how there's no basis. And if you don't like it when you say something stupid and get called for it, get the fuck out and don't come back. I hate whiny bitches.

I guess you and Benjamin Franklin wouldn't have gotten along too well.

Perhaps the fact that "times change" didn't register with you.

Oh yes, because the country is far less secure today than it was during the Revolution

See "false dilemma fallacy".

So you can't provide an alternative solution?

You honestly don't know what that fallacy is, do you?

PS. Did you know that Canada hasn't suffered a terrorist attack since 9/11, and we made gay marriage legal? Obviously one led to the other, so what's more important? A gay marriage ban or national security?

[SirNitram]

Yarcamos:

Here's your challenge. Show the Times Changed on September the Eleventh. Show how. Show why we should ignore the wealth of terrorist attacks in the world and declare the 'world changed' then. Or concede nothing did. I await your response.

America had never had a direct attack on it's own soil that killed such a large amount of people that the events of 9/11 did. Are you trying to portray that the world did NOT change? Are you trying to portray that we should have done everything the same as we did prior to the attacks? How exactly would that have worked?

*Brow raises* You've not studied your history. An entire American metropolis has been burned down by foreign nationals; it's called the War Of 1812. Oh well; I shouldn't have expected you to know what you're on about.

No, the world didn't change. For the past ten years at least(The time I've been aware of terrorist), we've had the same terrorist groups. They've had broadly the same message. The biggest difference is the Troubles in Britain are now mostly different shards of Irish nutbags against other Irish nutbags, and the SinnFein MP's not going to Parliment. That's the big change in the past ten years. Al-Qeada? Always been there, kid.

Here's where you get really stupid. To declare I think you should continue on the same path as before is to fallaciously assume I beleived America was treating terrorism as a legitimate threat before 9/11. I'm just pointing out nothing changed, not that the US government was competent beforehand.

You wouldn't have invaded Iraq, most likely, and not pissed away international support. The only thing that changed is that Americans shed their 'We Can't Be Invaded/Attacked!' aura of invincibility. For those of us who are from places other than the states, we knew the score. Nothing changed in the world, kid.

[Stravo]

Yarcamos:

Here's your challenge. Show the Times Changed on September the Eleventh. Show how. Show why we should ignore the wealth of terrorist attacks in the world and declare the 'world changed' then. Or concede nothing did. I await your response.

America had never had a direct attack on it's own soil that killed such a large amount of people that the events of 9/11 did. Are you trying to portray that the world did NOT change? Are you trying to portray that we should have done everything the same as we did prior to the attacks? How exactly would that have worked?

The world did NOT change. American policy and American general public opinion did but if you're equating a change in American policy as a change in the very fundamentals of the world then you need a serious swig of perspective.

[Darth Wong]

America had never had a direct attack on it's own soil that killed such a large amount of people that the events of 9/11 did. Are you trying to portray that the world did NOT change? Are you trying to portray that we should have done everything the same as we did prior to the attacks? How exactly would that have worked?

The world did NOT change. American policy and American general public opinion did but if you're equating a change in American policy as a change in the very fundamentals of the world then you need a serious swig of perspective.

Not to mention the fact that he's still relying on a crudely constructed "false dilemma" fallacy: either "everything the same" or "fuck the constitution".

[frigidmagi]

America had never had a direct attack on it's own soil that killed such a large amount of people that the events of 9/11 did.

What the Fuck?

The War of 1812 was what then? A spitting contest perhaps?

What the hell was pearl habor dim bulb? Wake island? Saipan? Guam? HELLO? All ours all assualted by Japanese forces, ring a fucking bell in there Skippy?!?

YOU FAILED HISTORY, GO BACK TO SCHOOL MORON!

[Petrosjko]

Shit, don't you people know that every time McDonalds gets a new Happy Meal the world changes? Everything revolves around us, and the sooner you backwards foreign primitives understand that, the happier you'll be. Or not, but it's not like we give a fuck about your feelings anyway.

/sarcasm.

Seriously, the aftermath of the 11th has had global ramifications, by virtue of the fact that the American public no longer views terrorism as something that happens in places we can't find on the map, and the US government adopted the preemption strategy. Two fallen governments and a shitstorm of global controversy later, we have such matters as the EU controversy between France and the eastern European nations over their support of the Iraq invasion, a new government in Spain due the previous administration's bungled handling of the bombing there, caused again by their support of the invasion. Various governments that joined the coalition are mired in internal debates over their parts in the matter, and there is a certainty of changes in the balances of power internally because it, if not wholesale changes of administration.

There has been a serious ripple effect from the public noticing that terrorism can indeed happen here. There's not a single inhabited continent that we don't have influence on, and that's why our presidential election is so keenly followed by everyone else.

So yeah, the eleventh didn't change the world by itself, but our response to it has.

[SirNitram]

So yeah, the eleventh didn't change the world by itself, but our response to it has.

No doubt that Bush's bungling has changed the world. But that's different; Bush's bungling and the Great American Wake Up don't legitimize revoking Rights guaranteed by the nation's founding documents.

[Petrosjko]

No doubt that Bush's bungling has changed the world. But that's different; Bush's bungling and the Great American Wake Up don't legitimize revoking Rights guaranteed by the nation's founding documents.

As I have sympathies for the Libertarian whackos you like to abuse, you won't get an argument from me on the point. Contrary to Mr. Holmes, I do view the fundamental rights outlined in the Constitution as being something of a suicide pact, inasmuch as a government that seeks out justification to strip those rights away is fundamentally corrupt and should kill itself.

Being as how no government of that disposition would do so, it's up the public to strip it from power via elections before it can do more harm.

[Yarcamos]

I meant to say terrorist attack. I am aware of the War of 1812, as well as Pearl Harbor. I meant to say terrorist attack, whether you want to believe it or not is of your own accord, I can understand why if you can't honestly.

[SirNitram]

I meant to say terrorist attack. I am aware of the War of 1812, as well as Pearl Harbor. I meant to say terrorist attack, whether you want to believe it or not is of your own accord, I can understand why if you can't honestly.

And you still can't advance a reason why 'Everything changed' because of this. How predictable. Slither off elsewhere.

[Agrajag]

The point is that China SHOULD be aligned with Bush on many issues and even this backwards nation can't support the guy!

[Darth Wong]

I meant to say terrorist attack. I am aware of the War of 1812, as well as Pearl Harbor. I meant to say terrorist attack, whether you want to believe it or not is of your own accord, I can understand why if you can't honestly.

No answer for the fact that your "times change" argument hinges upon the utterly ridiculous assumption that America is less secure and more threatened today than in 1776?

[Joe]

Wow (to the topic, not the tangent debate.) And after Powell throws the PRC a bone, too!