so, who's emigrating?

[The Yosemite Bear]

Actually, I have been thinking of moving out for a number of years, why?

because insulin is ungodly expensive here!

[His Divine Shadow]

I bet almost no one does.

I know one, and he used to be a marine, or maybe he still is, he's planning on leaving soon though he says, Scottland/Ireland/Sweden or New Zealand, he's not sure yet.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Marrying a citizen does not automatically confer citizenship upon you.

yes just ask my friend and his Czech wife, Superman and his Japanese wife, or Nitram and Tevor

[His Divine Shadow]

Boo hoo, you didn't get what you wanted, so now you want to run away? Grow up. If you're old enough to vote, you should be old enough to cope with the fact that you don't always get what you want. Deal with it and move on. If every American that lost left after the 2000 election, Bush would be almost entirely unopposed now. Yeah, the system has flaws, and it needs work, but who the fuck is going to fix it if all the people who have a problem with it leave?

If everyone who didn't like Bush moved the US would collapse from the loss of so many people, it'd be like east germany when they had to erect the berlin wall because they where hemorroghing their finest.

[fgalkin]

I have left one dictatorship only to get to another. Lucky me.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Sea Skimmer]

If everyone who didn't like Bush moved the US would collapse from the loss of so many people, it'd be like east germany when they had to erect the berlin wall because they where hemorroghing their finest.

You could say that about a lot of US presidents, and the leaders of many other nations.

[His Divine Shadow]

If everyone who didn't like Bush moved the US would collapse from the loss of so many people, it'd be like east germany when they had to erect the berlin wall because they where hemorroghing their finest.

You could say that about a lot of US presidents, and the leaders of many other nations.

I don't quite see how that is relevant to my point though.

[Col. Crackpot]

I have left one dictatorship only to get to another. Lucky me.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

can you can the fucking melodrama?

[Faram]

Actually, I have been thinking of moving out for a number of years, why?

because insulin is ungodly expensive here!

Come to Sweden become a Citizen or get a work and pay taxes.

Insulin is FREE for all diabetics here.

[Imperial Overlord]

fgalkin wrote:
I have left one dictatorship only to get to another. Lucky me.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin


can you can the fucking melodrama? Rolling Eyes

No can't can the melodrama. He's Russian. Centuries of selective breeding and cultural conditioning have perfected a temperate that is more maudilin than the Irish and more fatalistic than Arabs. A Russian knows that things can always get worse and that you shouldn't surprised when they do.

[Broomstick]

Oh for fuck's sake, buy a dictionary:
<snip>
No, you didn't use it correctly.

*shrugs* It's a relatively minor point, not really worth getting worked up about. I wasn't using the "especially" part, as that part of the meaning has never been really used in my frame of reference, but rather the primary part of the definition.

Naw, you mis-used the term and now you're backpedaling.

However, if you're saying that the old rhetoric of "love it or leave it" is liberal, do please continue, because that is all this situation is when people are advocating "leaving it" when they lose.

Nope. "Love it or leave it" has historically been the cry of the polital right/conservative, and a certain number of liberals have taken them up on it.

And once again, I'm talking about are the assholes who whine and bitch about leaving simply because their canidate lost on election day, not because the nation has gone past the point where living there is no longer worthwhile.

And who are you to determine what "worthwhile" means to them? Who are you to make a judgement about whether their reasons are "legitimate" or not?

You know, it was spending time in another country that made me truly appreciate my own country. Let 'em go elsewhere - either it will be a better fit, or they'll find out they really didn't have it that bad back in the old country.

And the general feeling on this board not one week ago was that the rise in voter turnout would result in a win for Kerry, because people don't vote unless they are unhappy with the administration.

Nope. I saw it as more a HOPE that a high turn-out would favor Kerry.

Fact is, this country has been politically conservative and progressively more religious since Reagan was elected in 1980. So it isn't about just one election, it's about a quarter-century trend. I can see where some folks would get tired of struggling for change and want to go elsewhere and do something else with their lives.

This shit has been going on since long before this election Mike, it has been going on since at least Clinton's second run for office. It crops up every single fucking time.

Earlier than that - the "flee to Canada" option has been mentioned every election I remember, all the way back to Nixon in 1972. Back then, people WERE going to Canada because they didn't want to get drafted to fight in Viet Nam.

Moreover, you can still live in the same country and not have to directly deal with the people who's values you don't like

How? By becoming a hermit in the woods or something?

It's not like they herded all the "liberals" into, say, Illinois (which went blue this time) and the "conservatives" into Indiana (which went red) and put up a fence between them. 30% of Indiana voted for Kerry, and that 30% is scattered throughout the state. A significant portion of Illinois voted for Bush, and again, those folks are mixed in with everyone else.

There are very, very few places in the US where you can get away with not dealing with people with different values. That's one reason the fundies are always so twitchy - no matter what they do, where they go, there always seems to be a bunch of faggots moving in next door and a single mother of three down the block and someone smoking pot over there and atheists in the schools....

I have to deal with people of radically different values and opinions every single day. The fact that people of extremely divergent opinons can co-exist in this country without open bloodshed is, in fact, one of the characteristics I value about the US. Back when I lived in Chicago, we had Serbs and Croats living next to each other in the same apartment building without harm when back in Bosnia they were killing each other. We have Jews and Muslims sharing commuter trains going to and from work every day with no suicide bombers. Doesn't mean we all love each other, but the disputes remain verbal, not physical. Nor is it unique to the US - there are other countries where tolerance is also the norm. But it IS a trait I value and I wouldn't want to live in a country that lacked it.

I don't give a shit. I don't care to find out, and despite that a huge number of people share my views and values, this nation is no longer worth my time. Never mind how much I once wanted to make a difference, or how close I came, I'm out.

There is this state called "being tired". After 10 or 20 years fighting for a cause some folks get worn out. The amazing thing is that some folks don't quit after that length of time.

So if people are so intent on leaving because the general populace of the United States of America are a bunch of backwards hicks who vote with their bible instead of their brains, and we knew this going in (which, frankly, we DID), why weren't they talking about leaving or getting ready to do so because the nation was in the crapper BEFORE the election even happened?

Well, actually, some of us have looked into moving.

I agree with Wong - if the electon was the "last straw" for someone, so what? It doesn't bother me if they want to pursue happiness elsewhere.

[Hotfoot]

Fact is, this country has been politically conservative and progressively more religious since Reagan was elected in 1980. So it isn't about just one election, it's about a quarter-century trend. I can see where some folks would get tired of struggling for change and want to go elsewhere and do something else with their lives.

I guess Clinton didn't mean anything, ah well. If you want to go back that far, why not go all the way back to the Cold War and McCarthyism, that's when the US really started to go down the shitter and became progressively more intolerant and religious.

Earlier than that - the "flee to Canada" option has been mentioned every election I remember, all the way back to Nixon in 1972. Back then, people WERE going to Canada because they didn't want to get drafted to fight in Viet Nam.

Fair enough, but now the Draft is only a whisper lurking in the shadows, not a harsh reality, and even if it was, running to Canada no longer is an option. So without the threat of imminent death hanging over our heads, how do you explain this? Also, I should note that people looking to avoid the draft would leave just before or just after they were called, constantly flowing from the US to Canada, not just after election day.

How? By becoming a hermit in the woods or something?

It's not like they herded all the "liberals" into, say, Illinois (which went blue this time) and the "conservatives" into Indiana (which went red) and put up a fence between them. 30% of Indiana voted for Kerry, and that 30% is scattered throughout the state. A significant portion of Illinois voted for Bush, and again, those folks are mixed in with everyone else.

Yes, everyone has to live together. So horrible. You can still move to an area that is predominantly in your favor, one way or another. If all the liberal/conservatives are relatively low in number, you can usually make your way through life without having to deal directly with them if you so choose.

There is this state called "being tired". After 10 or 20 years fighting for a cause some folks get worn out. The amazing thing is that some folks don't quit after that length of time.

Amazingly, most of the people I hear spewing this retoric of "run away" are people who have only been voting for less than a decade. That doesn't seem to me like they are worn out, just bitching.

So if people are so intent on leaving because the general populace of the United States of America are a bunch of backwards hicks who vote with their bible instead of their brains, and we knew this going in (which, frankly, we DID), why weren't they talking about leaving or getting ready to do so because the nation was in the crapper BEFORE the election even happened?

Well, actually, some of us have looked into moving.

Okay, good.

I agree with Wong - if the electon was the "last straw" for someone, so what? It doesn't bother me if they want to pursue happiness elsewhere.

There's a difference between it being the last straw and the only straw. There's also a difference between having a legit reason for abandoning ship and being a drama queen because your guy lost. I mean, seriously, it's a matter of dealing with the fact that you can't always get that you want. If you still have a job, if you still are reasonably happy where you are, why would you want to move away because of a lost election, because of what could possibly, maybe happen? I'm seeing all of these worst case scenarios being thrown around....Bush will launch three more invasions, strip us of all our civil liberties, re-introduce church and state, try to conquer the world, etc., with no care as to how outlandish the claim seems.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

To anyone who is thinking of emigrating because of the recent election:

Fuck you. Fuck you sideways with a fucking chainsaw, you pussies.

Boo hoo, you didn't get what you wanted, so now you want to run away? Grow up. If you're old enough to vote, you should be old enough to cope with the fact that you don't always get what you want. Deal with it and move on. If every American that lost left after the 2000 election, Bush would be almost entirely unopposed now. Yeah, the system has flaws, and it needs work, but who the fuck is going to fix it if all the people who have a problem with it leave?

Here's a newsflash for you all: South Park was right. Just telling someone to vote doesn't mean they're going to vote for your side. Here's another one, both major political parties are fucked up, and left to their own devices, they will drive their respective areas to the ground.

So go on, keep bitching that you don't want to play anymore. See what that gets you. Then, maybe, once you've finished with your little temper tantrums, you'll join the rest of the world in dealing with life head on instead of running and hiding whenever things don't go your way

Agreed. To hear some of the reaction on this board, one would think that the re-election of George W. Bush was tantamount to the God of the Christians providing undeniable proof of his existence and announcing that Armageddeon will commence in five minutes.

George W. Bush might be a mediocre president at best, and a downright terrible president at the worst, but the presidents of the United States, as a collective whole, haven't really been all that great. Sure there were some real good ones, but there were many who were just empty suits at best. Yet, at the end of the day, the country's still here. We're not going to all be speaking Arabic and shouting Allah-ackbar while being ground under the boots of our Al-Qaeda conquerers just because Bush is president. We're not going to all be rounded up and shot for being atheists, nor will there be a mysterious upswing in mobs with torches and pitchforks burning the heathens. Yes, George Bush won re-election. He even won the popular vote, but he only won it 51 - 48. It's not a landslide, there's no sweeping tidal wave of ignorance and Christian fundamentalism overtaking the country. If he'd won it by a margin of say 75 to 25, then fleeing the country in terror would be a good idea. Hell, if that happened, I'll pay for your ticket as I'm boarding the boat myself. But right now, it isn't that bad.

[Broomstick]

Fact is, this country has been politically conservative and progressively more religious since Reagan was elected in 1980. So it isn't about just one election, it's about a quarter-century trend. I can see where some folks would get tired of struggling for change and want to go elsewhere and do something else with their lives.

I guess Clinton didn't mean anything, ah well.

A temporary, very small reversal at best - he was one out of four presidents since 1980. And he was pretty damn conservative for a democrat - they were calling him a "stealth republican" at one point during his first term.

Earlier than that - the "flee to Canada" option has been mentioned every election I remember, all the way back to Nixon in 1972. Back then, people WERE going to Canada because they didn't want to get drafted to fight in Viet Nam.

Fair enough, but now the Draft is only a whisper lurking in the shadows, not a harsh reality, and even if it was, running to Canada no longer is an option.

Sure it is. Not as easy as it once was, true, but there are a couple thousand miles of undefended territory between the two countries, it's quite easy to cross if you don't mind hiking through some backcountry. And, of course, you'd be living on the run as an illegal alien but hey, it wasn't really that wonderful for the young men back in the 1960's/early 70's

So without the threat of imminent death hanging over our heads, how do you explain this?

Draft != death. Plenty of folks were drafted, went to war, and came back. But yeah, there was fear involved.

By the time we got to the Kent State incident and the various riots in various cities it was starting to look pretty dicey to the young folks even if they weren't drafted.

Also, I should note that people looking to avoid the draft would leave just before or just after they were called, constantly flowing from the US to Canada, not just after election day.

Yes and no - those who had some skills to plan ahead didn't wait until the last minute. They'd first explore other options, like student deferments (a lot of people spent more time in college than they would have otherwise for just that reason) There was more to avoiding the draft than simply fleeing.

I agree with Wong - if the electon was the "last straw" for someone, so what? It doesn't bother me if they want to pursue happiness elsewhere.

There's a difference between it being the last straw and the only straw. There's also a difference between having a legit reason for abandoning ship and being a drama queen because your guy lost. I mean, seriously, it's a matter of dealing with the fact that you can't always get that you want. If you still have a job, if you still are reasonably happy where you are, why would you want to move away because of a lost election, because of what could possibly, maybe happen? I'm seeing all of these worst case scenarios being thrown around....Bush will launch three more invasions, strip us of all our civil liberties, re-introduce church and state, try to conquer the world, etc., with no care as to how outlandish the claim seems.

Personally, I'm concerned with him fucking up social security and getting us deeper into debt.

There are those in the Bush camp who would like more war (Karl Rove) and a religious theocracy in the US (John Ashcroft). Does Bush himself want this? I don't know - how much of what happens is actually from Bush and how much from his close circle of advisors/handlers?

[Darth Wong]

Maybe somebody in America would just like to live in a place where he can call himself "liberal" without being treated like a leper. Is that such a huge stretch? Or is it just too easy to call anybody who wants to leave a "pussy" and say that he has some kind of made-up moral duty to stick around no matter how he's being treated or what values his kids are being brainwashed to believe?

[Col. Crackpot]

Maybe somebody in America would just like to live in a place where he can call himself "liberal" without being treated like a leper. Is that such a huge stretch? Or is it just too easy to call anybody who wants to leave a "pussy" and say that he has some kind of made-up moral duty to stick around no matter how he's being treated or what values his kids are being brainwashed to believe?

I live in a place IN America where calling yourself a conservative gets you treated like a leper. Hey folks, do you want to come live the great liberal dream? The strongest union state in the land? A place where 70% of the people pull the blue lever even if it means voting in a three legged retarded gnome with a speech impediment? Live here for a while. Work here for a while, pay the taxes for a while. I guaranfuckingtee your stands will moderate after your first paycheck, or after your first property tax bill and after your first realization that all of these grand idea you have, when implemented, have a staggering effect on YOUR cost of living.

So before you go, give it a shot. Come and live in the liberal utopia with me. You'll be broke by the end of the month.

[Darth Wong]

I live in a place IN America where calling yourself a conservative gets you treated like a leper. Hey folks, do you want to come live the great liberal dream? The strongest union state in the land? A place where 70% of the people pull the blue lever even if it means voting in a three legged retarded gnome with a speech impediment? Live here for a while. Work here for a while, pay the taxes for a while. I guaranfuckingtee your stands will moderate after your first paycheck, or after your first property tax bill and after your first realization that all of these grand idea you have, when implemented, have a staggering effect on YOUR cost of living.

Oddly enough, we Canadians pay higher taxes than you do but there is no mass exodus from Canada to the US even though those of us with professional skills could probably get jobs down there if we really wanted to.

So before you go, give it a shot. Come and live in the liberal utopia with me. You'll be broke by the end of the month.

I'll let you in on a secret about really low taxes: sooner or later, you still have to pay the piper. Those national debts don't just go away if you ignore them, you know.

[Iceberg]

I predict that sooner or later GWB is going to have to renege on his campaign promises and raise taxes in order to cover all the costs his government is incurring. Even HE can't ignore deficits forever, and when that happens, the knives, motherfucker, they are coming out.

[Darth Wong]

I predict that sooner or later GWB is going to have to renege on his campaign promises and raise taxes in order to cover all the costs his government is incurring. Even HE can't ignore deficits forever, and when that happens, the knives, motherfucker, they are coming out.

The Republicans are already asking for the national debt ceiling to be raised so they can go plunging past the $8 trillion mark.

[Hotfoot]

A temporary, very small reversal at best - he was one out of four presidents since 1980. And he was pretty damn conservative for a democrat - they were calling him a "stealth republican" at one point during his first term.

If it was so temporary, how did he win two terms, and how did Al Gore end up with the popular vote in 2000? It seems to me like there was a trend that was getting started but got fumbled in the 2000 election.

Sure it is. Not as easy as it once was, true, but there are a couple thousand miles of undefended territory between the two countries, it's quite easy to cross if you don't mind hiking through some backcountry. And, of course, you'd be living on the run as an illegal alien but hey, it wasn't really that wonderful for the young men back in the 1960's/early 70's

By the same logic, you could just head out into the forests of the USA and disappear if you felt like it. That way you don't even have to deal with the border.

Draft != death. Plenty of folks were drafted, went to war, and came back. But yeah, there was fear involved.

I know being drafted didn't mean you were absolutely going to die, but the chances were not favorable to the draftees, which meant there was a serious fear of death regarding the draft.

By the time we got to the Kent State incident and the various riots in various cities it was starting to look pretty dicey to the young folks even if they weren't drafted.

True, but I haven't seen police killing protesters as of late.

Yes and no - those who had some skills to plan ahead didn't wait until the last minute. They'd first explore other options, like student deferments (a lot of people spent more time in college than they would have otherwise for just that reason) There was more to avoiding the draft than simply fleeing.

Absolutely. My own father avoided the draft by simply joining the Army. With his degree, he was made an officer and thus avoided the grunt duty that would have awaited him with the Draft, but I think we're getting a little off topic and now discussing the Vietnam "conflict" rather than my original complaint, which was people whining overly much about losing an election.

Personally, I'm concerned with him fucking up social security and getting us deeper into debt.

There are those in the Bush camp who would like more war (Karl Rove) and a religious theocracy in the US (John Ashcroft). Does Bush himself want this? I don't know - how much of what happens is actually from Bush and how much from his close circle of advisors/handlers?

I'm concerned about that as well, but there are always other options open to us to oppose him messing up the system. If things get really bad, we can start a movement to have him impeached.

As for his inner circle of advisors and handlers, well, it may turn out that he is going to replace several of them soon, which could either turn out for the better, or it could get worse, only time will tell. Hopefully, he will try and placate the nation by including advisors that will tell him what he needs to hear, not what he wants to hear.

[Darth Wong]

If it was so temporary, how did he win two terms, and how did Al Gore end up with the popular vote in 2000? It seems to me like there was a trend that was getting started but got fumbled in the 2000 election.

Yeah, right. Clinton signed the "Defense of Marriage act", remember? He hardly represented the resurgence of liberal social policies in America. What social liberal policies did he spearhead?

[Iceberg]

If it was so temporary, how did he win two terms, and how did Al Gore end up with the popular vote in 2000? It seems to me like there was a trend that was getting started but got fumbled in the 2000 election.

Yeah, right. Clinton signed the "Defense of Marriage act", remember? He hardly represented the resurgence of liberal social policies in America. What social liberal policies did he spearhead?

On the other hand, the Republicans pushed DoMA through Congress during the election season in 1996, a move which was generally derided in the then not yet completely conservative-controlled American media as a blatantly political attempt to get President Clinton at the expense of millions of Americans' freedom.

And on the gripping hand, the only Senator to vote against DoMA, Paul Wellstone (D-MN), was up for election that year. And won his election by a landslide against his Republican opponent, Rudy Boschwitz (the former senator that Wellstone unseated in 1990).

[Hotfoot]

Maybe somebody in America would just like to live in a place where he can call himself "liberal" without being treated like a leper. Is that such a huge stretch? Or is it just too easy to call anybody who wants to leave a "pussy" and say that he has some kind of made-up moral duty to stick around no matter how he's being treated or what values his kids are being brainwashed to believe?

You don't get treated like a leper for being a liberal all over the US, and neither do conservatives have free reign to do what they want everywhere. Both sides have to put up with shit from the extreme members of the other. Now, you can make the argument that Liberals get the shorter end of the stick, and I wouldn't disagree with you, but the disparity isn't that massive. It's a hell of a lot bigger than in Europe and Canada, to be sure, but I don't see it as having overrun the nation and completely dominated our politics.

Now if for some people, life has become unbearable because they've been persecuted, unable to find jobs, and so on, and there's nothing they can reasonably do without hideous sacrifices to themselves, there is no reason to stay. Find a place where you can live happily.

That's not the type of person I'm talking about however. The type of person I'm bitching about is the type of person who, outside of this election, has a pretty good life, has a place where they are surrounded by friends, have a decent job, and shares largely similar views with the rest of the community. These people start bitching and moaning when the election is lost and start wailing about all the worst-case scenarios that they lapped up from the propeganda teams in their favored parties, worst case scenarios that almost never happen.

I wasn't that terribly specific in my original post, and for that, I do apologize. I was ranting because this shit annoys the hell out of me, it's like people don't have brains to think with anymore, they are replaced by horror stories from the two parties about their opposition, and this shit would have happened even if Kerry had won the elections, with a large number of republicans bitching that now America was going to be destroyed by terrorists and Iraq was going to kill all of our troops so on and so forth. This happens every fucking election. It's not a matter of who's liberal or who's conservative, or who's had a bad life and needs to move to make it better, it's a matter of people become hype machines and not taking the time to slow down and start thinking rationally about the subject. It usually dies down in a few weeks or so, and people go back to what they were doing, instead entranced by some pop star's tit popping out on MTV Uncut or someshit.

In all this, I'm not trying to reduce the significance of the people who do need to move to make a better life for themselves, those people are not my intended targets for my rant, and again, I do apologize if I made it seem that way.

[MKSheppard]

The Republicans are already asking for the national debt ceiling to be raised so they can go plunging past the $8 trillion mark.

Or they could always kill a major social program. Has nobody thought of that angle?

[Darth Wong]

The Republicans are already asking for the national debt ceiling to be raised so they can go plunging past the $8 trillion mark.

Or they could always kill a major social program. Has nobody thought of that angle?

You're advocating cuts in the military?