What the hell happened in Columbus?

Jetfire · Post by **Jetfire** » 2004-11-04 12:16pm

Col. Crackpot wrote:
The Dude wrote: 2) In a Canadian federal election, you have one race to vote for: local MP. In American elections, there will be president, congressmen, senators, governor, state legislature, judges, sheriffs, initiatives, and so on. This not only means more decisions, but also more convoluted ballots.
are you saying you don't get to vote for Provincal Premiers, legislatures or (the Canadian equivilant of) Sherriff in addition to not being able to choose your head of state? And this is supposedly better?

Actually, in Canada, the Leader of the various districts (Federal, Provincial and Municipal) can call for an election almost any time they want as long as it's before 5 years are up. Unlike the US, there is not a mandated day for voting on.

This also means that voting for all 3 levels rarely occurs on the same day, if ever.

Provincial elections are similar to Federal elections, so you vote for your local provincial MLA (Member of the Legislative Assembly I think), and the leader of the party with the most MLA's becomes the premier. You can end up with Minority governments there as well. (New Brunswick's last election left that province with a minority government, where the party in charge has exactly half the seats +1 at the moment, but they have to give up one person to be assigned the role of "Speaker" who can only vote in the event of ties).

Municipal elections have similar ballots, but I can't recall off hand all the details of how that works. I'm sure others can explain the lower levels better than I. (and correct any mistakes I've made here)

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2004-11-04 12:35pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:What kind of paperwork is there for the Canadian elections? And what kind of voting equipment?
You hand in your voter registration card, they check you off the list for your "riding" (our version of a "precinct") and hand you a piece of paper with the candidates' names on it. You mark an "X" next to the name of the guy you want to vote for. You stick the paper in a special lockbox. Then you go home and have sex.

Everything always ends with sex, doesn't it. :-p

The Dude · Post by **The Dude** » 2004-11-04 12:43pm

Col. Crackpot wrote:are you saying you don't get to vote for Provincal Premiers, legislatures or (the Canadian equivilant of) Sherriff in addition to not being able to choose your head of state? And this is supposedly better?

It's not supposedly better - it's demonstrably better - there's no question that our elections go off far more smoothly.

We don't vote directly for premiers or PM as the head of government is determined by the makeup of the respective legislature. Our Head of State is Elizabeth II (an arrangement that is wholly contingent on her never actually exercising the accompanying powers); her representative is effectively a PM apointee.

We DO vote for provincial legislatures, mayors and city councils - but these elections are separate from federal ones.

AFAIK we don't vote for sheriffs or equivalents - counties are just not significant in Canada (for example, the differences in election procedure you see within say, Florida, are an impossibility here in Canada). Federal election standards are set federally, provincial rules provincially and municipal rules locally.

m112880 · Post by **m112880** » 2004-11-04 12:45pm

in kentucky you walk in hand the people your id they check to see if you can vote then you fill in the circles on the ballet.

The Dude · Post by **The Dude** » 2004-11-04 12:50pm

Jetfire wrote:Municipal elections have similar ballots, but I can't recall off hand all the details of how that works. I'm sure others can explain the lower levels better than I. (and correct any mistakes I've made here)

The particulars of municipal arrangements are the purview of provincial governments (some of which pass these off to the local level) and so they can vary. Compare Toronto (a fully integrated megacity) to Montreal (a patchwork megacity) to Greater Vancouver (a regional district consisting of mostly autonomous smaller cities).

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2004-11-04 01:36pm

I'm sorry, but a government that denies it's citizens the right to vote for a own head of state/government is absolutely LESS democratic than one that does. I don't see how an argumet can be made otherwise. Granted,it might be simpler, but so it feudalism.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2004-11-04 01:38pm

gah! fucking typos.

i need to type slower.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-11-04 01:43pm

Col. Crackpot wrote:I'm sorry, but a government that denies it's citizens the right to vote for a own head of state/government is absolutely LESS democratic than one that does. I don't see how an argumet can be made otherwise. Granted,it might be simpler, but so it feudalism.

That's a ridiculous bullshit charade. Are you telling me that when you vote for President Bush, you're not voting for the Republican Party? In Canada, we recognize and admit that we vote for a ruling party, not one salesman at the top of it. In America, you pretend that you're voting for an individual man rather than a party. And in your case, you puff out your chest and claim that this makes your society superior

Korvan · Post by **Korvan** » 2004-11-04 01:44pm

The Dude wrote:We don't vote directly for premiers or PM as the head of government is determined by the makeup of the respective legislature. Our Head of State is Elizabeth II (an arrangement that is wholly contingent on her never actually exercising the accompanying powers); her representative is effectively a PM apointee.

In fact, our entire executive branch of our government is appointed rather than elected. It's kinda funny that when you use the CIA's world factbook to compare Canada to Saddam's Iraq, Iraq comes across as more democratic since their executive branch is elected.

AFAIK we don't vote for sheriffs or equivalents - counties are just not significant in Canada (for example, the differences in election procedure you see within say, Florida, are an impossibility here in Canada). Federal election standards are set federally, provincial rules provincially and municipal rules locally.

Here, in Canada, our sheriffs are just representatives of the court instead of being regular law enforcement officers. Our prosecuters are appointed instead of elected as well, which I agree with. I hear too many stories of american prosecuters railroading suspects in order to win re-election.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-11-04 01:46pm

"More democratic" does not necessarily mean "better" at every stage of government. A society with zero democracy is not a healthy society, but a society with excessive democracy becomes run by mob rule, which is how you get bullshit like judges deliberately interpreting things in ways totally contrary to the constitution because he thinks his interpretation will be popular with the masses.

The Dude · Post by **The Dude** » 2004-11-04 01:53pm

Col. Crackpot wrote:I'm sorry, but a government that denies it's citizens the right to vote for a own head of state/government is absolutely LESS democratic than one that does. I don't see how an argumet can be made otherwise. Granted,it might be simpler, but so it feudalism.

The leader of the party with the most elected MPs is Prime Minister; a large majority of Canadians vote on this basis with little or no knowledge of the particular MP candidate.

BTW, how many members of the US cabinet are elected?

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-11-04 01:55pm

The Dude wrote:BTW, how many members of the US cabinet are elected?

None, cabinet positions are all appointed and Senate approved.

The Dude · Post by **The Dude** » 2004-11-04 02:08pm

Stormbringer wrote:
The Dude wrote:BTW, how many members of the US cabinet are elected?
None, cabinet positions are all appointed and Senate approved.

I forgot about the Senate approval part - that's not such a bad system. Canadian cabinet members are appointed (from among elected MPs); the appointments are not subject to parliamentary review.

Jalinth · Post by **Jalinth** » 2004-11-04 02:13pm

Col. Crackpot wrote:
The Dude wrote: 2) In a Canadian federal election, you have one race to vote for: local MP. In American elections, there will be president, congressmen, senators, governor, state legislature, judges, sheriffs, initiatives, and so on. This not only means more decisions, but also more convoluted ballots.
are you saying you don't get to vote for Provincal Premiers, legislatures or (the Canadian equivilant of) Sherriff in addition to not being able to choose your head of state? And this is supposedly better?

No, in Canada the federal, provincial and municipal elections (city and school board) are not co-ordinated. So all votes are staggered. But you only have maybe a few elections every 4 years or so, so we really don't need one set election day. Maybe we should try to co-ordinate provincial and municipal elections since the municipal turn-out is generally low.

Federal/provincial governments have up to 5 years in power as a constitutional matter - an election can (and generally is) called earlier by the PM or premier, but they don't have to. An election can be forced involuntarily by non-confidence votes. Theoretically, the Governor-General can call an election w/o anyone else's consent. I could only see this happen where the PM and ruling party fell into such a major scandal that they no longer had any mandate to rule.

Up here, you only vote for MP (federal), MLAs or equivalent (provincial), mayor, city council members, trustees. A few other spots might be elected (health authorities), but fairly rare.

Otherwise, most of the elected spots in the US are either civil servants (sheriffs and judges, auditor general), or appointed by the premier (Attorney General, etc...) The important thing to remember is that the PM or premier is part of both the legislative and executive branches of government. They are the head of government and effectively lead both the legislative and executive branches but are not the head of state (the Governor General or Lt . Governor General fulfills this spot). Generally, the PM or premier acts "in the name of the Queen" - call it a rubber stamp.

Most people generally consider Canadian civil servants to be honest (pure political appointees are another issue) - whether they effectively and efficiently perform their tasks is another question. When they go "rogue" (outright theft and fraud is fortunately rare), it can generally be traced to trying to serve their political masters (see the Canadian sponsorship scandal) wishes w/o considering the ethical or legal issues. All too often, their political masters never seem to get punished - to inverse an adage "the buck stops nowhere" in too many cases.