HMS Dreadnought vs SMS Nassau

[Frank Hipper]

In the vein of WWII warships, just a little more obscure. Dreadnought has a speed advantage, Nassau is relatively under-apreciated, but not without merits. Who wins and how?

[weemadando]

I remember reading a very dubious book where a WW2 era battleship was able to cut through modern vessels simply because it had too much armour for modern missiles and 5" guns to penetrate. While 18" manually aimed guns, despite being inaccurate still rip shit up.

That could be the case here...

[The Dark]

Dreadnought wins. The difference in armor belt is only 10mm (290 for Nassau to 280 for Dreadnought), but Dreadnought is 1.5 knots faster and carries 305mm cannon to Nassau's 280mm. Two extra cannon won't help Nassau (12 to 10) when the shells are light. If it was the Helgoland, it would be a different story.

[Sea Skimmer]

Depends heavily on the date of the action.

Nassau has a weaker main battery broadside and a pair of highly venerable wing turrets while Dreadnought has only one. Dreadnought's turrets are well placed and don’t suffer from mutual interference while Nassau's will suffer quite a bit.

If this is as built then the guns will be firing in local control and ranges will be about 5000 yard because no one can hit beyond that. In such a situation neither sides armor offers much protection, and both sides will be rapidly demolished.

The British will use mainly CPC, which will tear apart the Nassau's upper works and casemates. The Germans are more likely to use AP, but its not going to be real effective, most rounds will fail to explode or shatter. Chances are Nassau will be knocked out of action by fires and/or will be blown up by a hit on a wing barbette.

Course in real life it would be four Nassaus and ten Predreadnoughts against seven assorted British dreadnoughts and about twenty-five predreadnoughts.

[Sea Skimmer]

I remember reading a very dubious book where a WW2 era battleship was able to cut through modern vessels simply because it had too much armour for modern missiles and 5" guns to penetrate. While 18" manually aimed guns, despite being inaccurate still rip shit up.

That could be the case here...

What the moron author has forgotten is that no WW2 battleship would stand a chance in action with missile-armed ships unless it had a major refit with 1970's or better technology. The reason is quite simple, fuel fires. Nothing a WW2 battleship has will be effective against the fires caused by solid or liquid rocket or cruise missile fuel. They'd burn to the water line.

Armor doesnt stop fires.

[The Dark]

Plus the hits (from some missiles, SLAM comes to mind) will be vertical, and most WW2 ships had horrible deck armor. The Iowas might survive a SLAM hit. Most others? Forget it.

[Frank Hipper]

I remember reading a very dubious book where a WW2 era battleship was able to cut through modern vessels simply because it had too much armour for modern missiles and 5" guns to penetrate. While 18" manually aimed guns, despite being inaccurate still rip shit up.

That could be the case here...

As much as I wish it were so, it would never happen. Modern anti-ship missiles are BAD-ASSED! I`m reminded of the Italia class battleships of the 1880`s, for some reason. They were armed with 110 ton 17.7 inch guns, could do 18kts on a good day, but were useless on completion due to the advent of fixed amunition guns of much lighter caliber. The design sacrificed all for speed and firepower, which they had in abundance. Their guns, however, had a rate of fire of about one round every FIVE minutes. Considering the state of fire control of the time, it would have been miraculous if they ever hit anything!

[Sea Skimmer]

Dreadnought wins. The difference in armor belt is only 10mm (290 for Nassau to 280 for Dreadnought), but Dreadnought is 1.5 knots faster and carries 305mm cannon to Nassau's 280mm. Two extra cannon won't help Nassau (12 to 10) when the shells are light. If it was the Helgoland, it would be a different story.

If you examined the plans of them vessels you'd note that both ships have eight guns on the broadside. Gun size matters little but is a factor. The Germans however have faster hoist and will get more rounds out. The British wont even bother firing AP rounds, they'd go right to CPC. The Germans likely would use AP rather then there own base fused HE rounds, and that would doom them.

By the time Helgoland entered service the British had the Orion's. Course by the time the Germans had the Nassau fit for service they on the Colossus.

[weemadando]

I remember reading a very dubious book where a WW2 era battleship was able to cut through modern vessels simply because it had too much armour for modern missiles and 5" guns to penetrate. While 18" manually aimed guns, despite being inaccurate still rip shit up.

That could be the case here...

What the moron author has forgotten is that no WW2 battleship would stand a chance in action with missile-armed ships unless it had a major refit with 1970's or better technology. The reason is quite simple, fuel fires. Nothing a WW2 battleship has will be effective against the fires caused by solid or liquid rocket or cruise missile fuel. They'd burn to the water line.

Armor doesnt stop fires.

Like I said. Horribly dubious book.

Still amusing though simply for having a Russian WW2 battleship (fictional) larger than the Yamato decide to ram an Oliver Hazard Perry class Frigate (IIRC)...

[Sea Skimmer]

I remember reading a very dubious book where a WW2 era battleship was able to cut through modern vessels simply because it had too much armour for modern missiles and 5" guns to penetrate. While 18" manually aimed guns, despite being inaccurate still rip shit up.

That could be the case here...

What the moron author has forgotten is that no WW2 battleship would stand a chance in action with missile-armed ships unless it had a major refit with 1970's or better technology. The reason is quite simple, fuel fires. Nothing a WW2 battleship has will be effective against the fires caused by solid or liquid rocket or cruise missile fuel. They'd burn to the water line.

Armor doesnt stop fires.

Like I said. Horribly dubious book.

Still amusing though simply for having a Russian WW2 battleship (fictional) larger than the Yamato decide to ram an Oliver Hazard Perry class Frigate (IIRC)...

This guy needs to be shot. The Perry would ass rape the damn thing with six Harpoons and Standards a minute as son as it corssed the horizion.

[The Dark]

Dreadnought wins. The difference in armor belt is only 10mm (290 for Nassau to 280 for Dreadnought), but Dreadnought is 1.5 knots faster and carries 305mm cannon to Nassau's 280mm. Two extra cannon won't help Nassau (12 to 10) when the shells are light. If it was the Helgoland, it would be a different story.

If you examined the plans of them vessels you'd note that both ships have eight guns on the broadside. Gun size matters little but is a factor. The Germans however have faster hoist and will get more rounds out. The British wont even bother firing AP rounds, they'd go right to CPC. The Germans likely would use AP rather then there own base fused HE rounds, and that would doom them.

By the time Helgoland entered service the British had the Orion's. Course by the time the Germans had the Nassau fit for service they on the Colossus.

Don't have the plans for German or British ships right now, just returned them to the library. I only have the notes I kept on tonnage, length, beam, running depth, armor, and main armament. Japanese ships, OTOH, I have plans for.

[Frank Hipper]

Depends heavily on the date of the action.

Nassau has a weaker main battery broadside and a pair of highly venerable wing turrets while Dreadnought has only one. Dreadnought's turrets are well placed and don’t suffer from mutual interference while Nassau's will suffer quite a bit.

If this is as built then the guns will be firing in local control and ranges will be about 5000 yard because no one can hit beyond that. In such a situation neither sides armor offers much protection, and both sides will be rapidly demolished.

The British will use mainly CPC, which will tear apart the Nassau's upper works and casemates. The Germans are more likely to use AP, but its not going to be real effective, most rounds will fail to explode or shatter. Chances are Nassau will be knocked out of action by fires and/or will be blown up by a hit on a wing barbette.

Course in real life it would be four Nassaus and ten Predreadnoughts against seven assorted British dreadnoughts and about twenty-five predreadnoughts.

Nassau`s wing turrets were placed further inboard than the wing turrets on Dreadnought, affording greater protection. English shell quality was a major factor for German ship survival at Jutland. At 5000 yds Nassau`s heavy secondary battery can play a significant role. These two ships are closely matched, crew training would be crucial.

[Sea Skimmer]

I remember reading a very dubious book where a WW2 era battleship was able to cut through modern vessels simply because it had too much armour for modern missiles and 5" guns to penetrate. While 18" manually aimed guns, despite being inaccurate still rip shit up.

That could be the case here...

As much as I wish it were so, it would never happen. Modern anti-ship missiles are BAD-ASSED! I`m reminded of the Italia class battleships of the 1880`s, for some reason. They were armed with 110 ton 17.7 inch guns, could do 18kts on a good day, but were useless on completion due to the advent of fixed amunition guns of much lighter caliber. The design sacrificed all for speed and firepower, which they had in abundance. Their guns, however, had a rate of fire of about one round every FIVE minutes. Considering the state of fire control of the time, it would have been miraculous if they ever hit anything!

State of Fire control meant the ranges would be about 1000 yards, likely less. At that range they could easily hit. One 17.7 shell a minute would rapidly reduce any battleship or cruiser to wreckage. And the Italia's own sloped belt and deck combine with the short-range make her vitals near immune to damage.

Also keep in mind, Italia's could fire all guns forward, and at the time everyone was obsessed with ramming. Ranges would drop to under 250 yards. At that point machineguns come into play! And a single hit from one of those big guns could easily cripple a vessel and allow for a ramming attack.

Lissa started the ramming craze, but it also showed that you had to disable them with gunfire or get very lucky before you could make contact.


The threat of quick firing guns in the 3-6 inch class, which showed up several years after the Italia, crippling battleships is much overrated. At the battle of the Yalu river two Chinese battleships little more advanced then Italia each took over 200 hits from Japanese cruisers. Despite having near inept crews beyond the American captain of one of them, little ammunition and inferior speed and escorts both remained battle worthy.

They did however lose the battle and China the war.

[Frank Hipper]

The Chinese also used shells filled with coal dust at Yalu, that could not have helped.

[Sea Skimmer]

Depends heavily on the date of the action.

Nassau has a weaker main battery broadside and a pair of highly venerable wing turrets while Dreadnought has only one. Dreadnought's turrets are well placed and don’t suffer from mutual interference while Nassau's will suffer quite a bit.

If this is as built then the guns will be firing in local control and ranges will be about 5000 yard because no one can hit beyond that. In such a situation neither sides armor offers much protection, and both sides will be rapidly demolished.

The British will use mainly CPC, which will tear apart the Nassau's upper works and casemates. The Germans are more likely to use AP, but its not going to be real effective, most rounds will fail to explode or shatter. Chances are Nassau will be knocked out of action by fires and/or will be blown up by a hit on a wing barbette.

Course in real life it would be four Nassaus and ten Predreadnoughts against seven assorted British dreadnoughts and about twenty-five predreadnoughts.

Nassau`s wing turrets were placed further inboard than the wing turrets on Dreadnought, affording greater protection. English shell quality was a major factor for German ship survival at Jutland. At 5000 yds Nassau`s heavy secondary battery can play a significant role. These two ships are closely matched, crew training would be crucial.

It's not enough to matter. The British will be firing CPC, so spalling is the real threat to the wing turrets. The loss of some energy going through another few feet of open space won't matter for that.

Nassau's secondary battery is unlikely to accomplish very much. Secondary hits caused little damage in historical engagements and there protection is insufficient to save them from 12 inch CPC.

At the time of completion shell quality is little different for the two sides. Neither has an effective APC round and after studying Tusimia the British deiced to use mainly CPC against capital targets. They continued to do this until they got the Greenboy shells after Jutland. The Germans have a poor AP round as well, but unlike the British they will try to use it extensively in action. This will cost them heavily.

[Frank Hipper]

The thing with the wing turrets on Nassau is a penetrating hit needs to go through the 5.9in battery armour and pierce the barbette armour, wich was considerably stouter stuff. Dreadnought`s wing barbettes were actually sponsoned, not a fatal flaw, but an exposure, nonetheless.

[Frank Hipper]

Nassau`s most glaring defeciency IMHO, is that she had reciprocating engines compared to Dreadnought`s turbines. Nassau could be pushed to 20kts, and after an hour or less would begin to suffer engine damage or breakdowns.

[Sea Skimmer]

I'd forgotten about the 5.9-inch battery armor being in the way. However CPC did have a delay and would go through nearly seven inches of armor, though even hull plating would start the fuse.

Nassau engines and inferior speed likely won't matter in action. The battle wont last long enough for overworking to become an issue, and none of the German dreadnoughts ever really saw enough service to seriously degrade the power plant.