Liberals versus Conservatives

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-11-04 07:58pm

A few statistics for your viewing pleasure:

Canada's national debt in 2004: $510 billion (down from peak of $600 billion)
Canada's population in 2004: 32.5 million (from CIA factbook)
US national debt in 2004: $7.5 trillion (up from $5.7 trillion in 2000)
US population in 2004: 293 million (from CIA factbook)

Conclusion: Canada's national debt has dropped from a high of $19k/person to $16 k/person. Meanwhile, the US national debt under a "conservative" government has ballooned from $20k/person to $26k/person.

So who are the big spenders? The "Canadian big-government left-leaning socialist liberals" or the "American free-enterprise right-leaning conservatives"? What is the value of a label?

The Cleric · Post by **The Cleric** » 2004-11-04 08:01pm

The label has no value at all. But remember, America has taken on the "Worl Cop" role, and that's sucking down a lot of cash.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-11-04 08:02pm

On the other side of that coin, what nation must project its might around the world, field a million man army, provide welfare - uh I mean Foreign aid to a multitude of nations and be the greatest consumer society on the face of this planet? I'd say we're not doing too bad considering.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2004-11-04 08:04pm

StormtrooperOfDeath wrote:The label has no value at all. But remember, America has taken on the "Worl Cop" role, and that's sucking down a lot of cash.

Given that in alot of cases their policing their own mess, I have no sympathy for them. The could revert back to isolationism, nobody really wants them playing international cowboy anyways.

Ma Deuce · Post by **Ma Deuce** » 2004-11-04 08:08pm

Well, the GOP has lost any pretence of being a fiscally conservative party, which ironically is what the Liberal Party of Canada has turned into, what with the massive (often excessive) budget slashing they did during the '90s, and the three crown corporations (Air Canada, CN Rail, and Petro Canada) that were privatized under their tenure. It was this shift to a more fiscally conservative platform that allowed them to so thoroughly destroy the PC party in the '92 election...

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-11-04 08:09pm

Canada has voluntarily forgiven billions of dollars in debt to third-world nations, much to the joy of Bono, while lowering its national debt and maintaining a universal health-care system. Not quite as impressive as being able to blow lots of shit up, I'll grant you, but not bad nonetheless.

"The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt."- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 104-43BC.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2004-11-04 08:15pm

Darth Wong wrote:Canada has voluntarily forgiven billions of dollars in debt to third-world nations, much to the joy of Bono, while lowering its national debt and maintaining a universal health-care system. Not quite as impressive as being able to blow lots of shit up, I'll grant you, but not bad nonetheless.

I can't decide whether forgiving billions of dollars that 3rd world countries owe us is good or not. After all that was my tax money they just wasted. It does make us look good on the world stage though.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-11-04 08:18pm

Canada definitely underspends if last years 9 billion dollar surplus is any indication.

Like what the hell, how can you be off 9 billion dollars.

Brian

Post by **Gandalf** » 2004-11-04 08:19pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Canada has voluntarily forgiven billions of dollars in debt to third-world nations, much to the joy of Bono, while lowering its national debt and maintaining a universal health-care system. Not quite as impressive as being able to blow lots of shit up, I'll grant you, but not bad nonetheless.
I can't decide whether forgiving billions of dollars that 3rd world countries owe us is good or not. After all that was my tax money they just wasted. It does make us look good on the world stage though.

I guess one of the ideas behind that was that since they no longer have to pay Canada back, they can (theoretically) put that money towards things like improving their country.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-11-04 08:20pm

brianeyci wrote:Canada definitely underspends if last years 9 billion dollar surplus is any indication.

Like what the hell, how can you be off 9 billion dollars.

When a government doesn't spend as much money as it expected to, you do not call it "underspending". You call it "good".

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2004-11-04 08:21pm

Gandalf wrote: I guess one of the ideas behind that was that since they no longer have to pay Canada back, they can (theoretically) put that money towards things like improving their country.

Yeah right. Too bad most of the countries are run by tinpot dictators that would rather spend money on MIG's than help their people.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2004-11-04 08:24pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:
Gandalf wrote: I guess one of the ideas behind that was that since they no longer have to pay Canada back, they can (theoretically) put that money towards things like improving their country.
Yeah right. Too bad most of the countries are run by tinpot dictators that would rather spend money on MIG's than help their people.

That's why I said theoretically.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-11-04 08:25pm

Darth Wong wrote: When a government doesn't spend as much money as it expected to, you do not call it "underspending". You call it "good".

Considering that 9 billion could have fixed about every major problem and shortfall the Canadian military has, I would call it bad.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2004-11-04 08:29pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Considering that 9 billion could have fixed about every major problem and shortfall the Canadian military has, I would call it bad.

Didn't you know? The Liberals want the CF to shrivel up and disappear, it's like their ashamed of us.

Sam Or I · Post by **Sam Or I** » 2004-11-04 08:32pm

Canada has not gone through 9/11, and is not at war at the moment, and has not spent nearly as much on National Security as the US.

As a percent of the GDP, the Deficit, Bush Jr is still lower than both Bush Sr. and Regan. (I am not saying that is a good thing, but it is not as bad as alot of the left makes it out to be)

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy ... st01z3.xls

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-11-04 08:36pm

Tell Joe that.

Sam Or I · Post by **Sam Or I** » 2004-11-04 08:37pm

PS it is a greater defecit than Clinton which has been the only recent Democrat President during my memory.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2004-11-04 08:37pm

I can't decide whether forgiving billions of dollars that 3rd world countries owe us is good or not. After all that was my tax money they just wasted. It does make us look good on the world stage though.

Actually, a lot of the heads of organizations that run economic austerity programs in the third world often ask the first-world not to abrogate third-world debt. It reduces investor confidence and generally makes the governments in question unaccountable. Hell, even some leaders in third-world nations have joined this call, arguing that if the U.S. and other nations went forward and forgave debt, their opposition would become too reckless.

I also don't buy the idea that any given nation can rack up excessive goodwill just by forgiving debt.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2004-11-04 08:39pm

Sam Or I wrote:Canada has not gone through 9/11, and is not at war at the moment, and has not spent nearly as much on National Security as the US.

As a percent of the GDP, the Deficit, Bush Jr is still lower than both Bush Sr. and Regan. (I am not saying that is a good thing, but it is not as bad as alot of the left makes it out to be)

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy ... st01z3.xls

Hey buckwheat, in case you've been sleeping since 9/11. Canada has been actively involved in Afghanistan since the invasion, we have even lost 6 troops. Four to US incompetance. And our government has increased National Security, they just have chosen not to trample all over personal liberties and freedoms ala the Patriot Act.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-11-04 08:44pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote: Tell Joe that.

Tell me what?

Plekhanov · Post by **Plekhanov** » 2004-11-04 08:46pm

Sam Or I wrote:Canada has not gone through 9/11,

And just how much of the deficit can be attributed to 9/11 exactly?

and is not at war at the moment, and has not spent nearly as much on National Security as the US.

Maybe that’s part of Mike’s point, Canada isn’t pissing away billions in unnecessary wars (Iraq not Afghanistan), despite W’s best attempts to get them involved of course, because they have a responsible Liberal government.

As a percent of the GDP, the Deficit, Bush Jr is still lower than both Bush Sr. and Regan. (I am not saying that is a good thing, but it is not as bad as alot of the left makes it out to be)

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy ... st01z3.xls

Is that really the best you can do? The current “fiscally responsible conservative” president isn’t quite as bad at balancing the budget as the previous 2 “fiscally responsible conservatives”. Isn't it rather telling though that you missed out one of the more recent Presidents from your little list, could this be because the US’s finances are now in much worse shape than they were under that irresponsible “left-leaning socialist liberal” Clinton?

Admiral_K · Post by **Admiral_K** » 2004-11-04 08:49pm

Darth Wong wrote:A few statistics for your viewing pleasure:

Canada's national debt in 2004: $510 billion (down from peak of $600 billion)
Canada's population in 2004: 32.5 million (from CIA factbook)
US national debt in 2004: $7.5 trillion (up from $5.7 trillion in 2000)
US population in 2004: 293 million (from CIA factbook)

Conclusion: Canada's national debt has dropped from a high of $19k/person to $16 k/person. Meanwhile, the US national debt under a "conservative" government has ballooned from $20k/person to $26k/person.

So who are the big spenders? The "Canadian big-government left-leaning socialist liberals" or the "American free-enterprise right-leaning conservatives"? What is the value of a label?

The U.S. has alot more responsibilitys than Canada. Being the backbone of NATO isn't cheap. If Canada were to pay a proportionally equal sum for their defense, I doubt it will be nearly as well off.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2004-11-04 08:53pm

Admiral_K wrote:
The U.S. has alot more responsibilitys than Canada. Being the backbone of NATO isn't cheap. If Canada were to pay a proportionally equal sum for their defense, I doubt it will be nearly as well off.

420 odd Billion dollers US VS the 9.6 Billion Canada spends(Googled)

GDP is US $ 10,082,000,000,000 VS

Canada $ 923,000,000,000

*Roughy ten times as much

Some wonderful accountant want to work that into a weighted comparson between the two countrys?

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2004-11-04 08:56pm

Admiral_K wrote:
The U.S. has alot more responsibilitys than Canada. Being the backbone of NATO isn't cheap. If Canada were to pay a proportionally equal sum for their defense, I doubt it will be nearly as well off.

The bottom line is that the Canadian government is unwilling to further fund the military. And we don't have the tax base to do it anyways. They could give the entire 9 Billion surplus to the military, but that would probably be a one time deal. The Liberals want the CF gone, and that's a fact.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2004-11-04 10:32pm

Darth Wong wrote:Like what the hell, how can you be off 9 billion dollars.

When a government doesn't spend as much money as it expected to, you do not call it "underspending". You call it "good".[/quote]Except for the Republicans that is.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Liberals versus Conservatives

Liberals versus Conservatives

Re: Liberals versus Conservatives

Re: Liberals versus Conservatives

Re: Liberals versus Conservatives