OK, I know that Saxton didn't authorize this in HIS ITW

[Lord of the Farce]

And you want to dismiss context - small, useless dependencies and protectorates on the Rim will not be of Coruscant's concern. Of those eighty, perhaps sixty are the equivalent of Yokelville, Nowhere. The planets requiring "rearrangement" will be large, well-populated local powers. Otherwise the effort is wasted.

To begin with, your "only six million, three hundred and seventy thousand worlds" assertion has already been shoot at by the Imperial Sourcebook:

The Empire has not completely altered the governments of hundreds of thousands of worlds. Such a task would be impractical. The Emperor has left it to his advisors to modify the portions of a planetary government, be it government procedure or members of the ruling body, to conform to the will of the Empire. Less than one planet in 80 has been so modified.

... Which also leaves the implication that this group of less-than-millions of governments (which less in 1 in 80 are modified in any way by the Empire) are key - not Yokelville, Nowhere - planetary governments.

[Graeme Dice]

I doubt anyone has forgotten what the nukes at Hiroshima and Nagasaki did, though occasional nuke tests and scaremongering doesn't hurt.

And, of course, since you have some magical evidentiary sources, you can show that the Empire wasn't going to ever have to use the Death Star again. Oh wait, you can't do that now can you.

Your point?

Your just as full of shit as Kaz and Wong, and are still pretending that the junk you pull out of your imagination is valid evidence.

[Lord of the Farce]

And, of course, since you have some magical evidentiary sources, you can show that the Empire wasn't going to ever have to use the Death Star again. Oh wait, you can't do that now can you.

Oh please, if you're going to claim that the Empire would run around blowing up dozens of random planets whenever the mood struck them (and perhaps, quite conveniently, do so often enough to rack up a 365 trillion death count in five years ), then you better provide some proof. After all, we have solid evidence that the Empire had been content - in fact, prefered - to leave most planets to their own devices for 20 years or more of the Empire's reign.

Your just as full of shit as Kaz and Wong, and are still pretending that the junk you pull out of your imagination is valid evidence.

The fact that you can claim this with a straight face indicates that either you haven't actually read the posts of the people you are trying to insult, or you've been reading them using Darkstar Vision™.

[Graeme Dice]

Oh please, if you're going to claim that the Empire would run around blowing up dozens of random planets whenever the mood struck them (and perhaps, quite conveniently, do so often enough to rack up a 365 trillion death count in five years ), then you better provide some proof.

First off, it's 25 years, not five years till the Vong invasion.
I'm first waiting for a few things that I know you won't be able to provide. Things like proof that there was a 365 trillion death count. Then some proof that that death count would be lower if the Vong invaded while the Empire was in power. Then some proof that the Emperor wasn't ever going to use the Death Star again.

After all, we have solid evidence that the Empire had been content - in fact, prefered - to leave most planets to their own devices for 20 years or more of the Empire's reign.

No, you have imperial propaganda stating that they left the planets alone.

The fact that you can claim this with a straight face indicates that either you haven't actually read the posts of the people you are trying to insult, or you've been reading them using Darkstar Vision™.

I have read them. Kaz is and always has been an imperial apologist who is completely unable to make up his own arguments. You've decided that your imagination is a valid source of evidence, since you've continually assumed that the Empire wouldn't end up with similar or worse losses by the time the Vong were defeated. Wong is constantly throwing around faulty analogies and trying to use ad hominem attacks to make his point. In short, yes, you are full of shit.

[Darth Wong]

Wong is constantly throwing around faulty analogies and trying to use ad hominem attacks to make his point.

"Faulty analogies" for which you cannot actually show how the same logic is not in use, and insults that you invariably misinterpret as ad-hominem fallacies because you are either too stupid or too defensive to admit that the point has been answered. It's the oldest trick in the book: attack an analogy for not being identical, even though the underlying logic is the same. If someone believes Hiroshima and Alderaan were both evil, that's great. More power to him, he's logically consistent. If he tries to make up bullshit reasons why one is noble (because the end justifies the means) but the other isn't (because the end can never justify such horrible means), then he's the one who's full of shit. All you're trying to do is sidestep the issue by appealing to uncertainty and arguing that we can't prove the end worked out.

Let me ask you this: if, for the sake of the ethical dilemma, one accepted that the Empire resulted in fewer casualties than the New Republic, would the end justify the means? If not, then do you agree that the end of Hiroshima did not justify the means either? Or are you another spluttering hypocrite? Or will you refuse to address this question based on your "they lost so it didn't work so I don't have to deal with it" retort?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Let me ask you this: if, for the sake of the ethical dilemma, one accepted that the Empire resulted in fewer casualties than the New Republic, would the end justify the means? If not, then do you agree that the end of Hiroshima did not justify the means either? Or are you another spluttering hypocrite? Or will you refuse to address this question based on your "they lost so it didn't work so I don't have to deal with it" retort?

He's already answered.

I see, so you would prefer the SW galaxy be exterminated (5E20 sentients is AFAIK more than the total number in the entire GFFA) by the incomptence of a nominally democratic government than to have several bil lost to an authoritarian government's Order-Keeping Efforts.

Yes. That's correct. It's also not an "authoritan" government, and they are _not_ "order-keeping efforts". It's a brutal, tyrannical totalitarian regime who repressed the population in an attempt to maintain control over them.

[Graeme Dice]

"Faulty analogies" for which you cannot actually show how the same logic is not in use,

It's been shown multipl'e times in this thread. You've failed to both show that the ends were anywhere near the same and that the means were anywhere near the same. You've continually asserted that they were the same, but virtually ignored the fact that they aren't.

and insults that you invariably misinterpret as ad-hominem fallacies because you are either too stupid or too defensive to admit that the point has been answered.

You've not answered the point at all. In fact, your argument is nothing more than an attempt to attack the person, since it falls apart if you find somebody who agrees that both were atrocities.

It's the oldest trick in the book: attack an analogy for not being identical, even though the underlying logic is the same. If someone believes Hiroshima and Alderaan were both evil, that's great. More power to him, he's logically consistent.

And since your argument has no more substance than trying to make people agree with that, it's a textbook case of an ad hominem.

If he tries to make up bullshit reasons why one is noble (because the end justifies the means) but the other isn't (because the end can never justify such horrible means), then he's the one who's full of shit. All you're trying to do is sidestep the issue by appealing to uncertainty and arguing that we can't prove the end worked out.

Your problem is that you've assumed that the ends are similar when they aren't.

Let me ask you this: if, for the sake of the ethical dilemma, one accepted that the Empire resulted in fewer casualties than the New Republic, would the end justify the means?

No, because fewer casualties would not be the only result of the Empire surviving till the Vong, even assuming that no more superweapons were used on civilians. You must also take into account the fact that the population of the galaxy would have had to be kept in constant fear of near-instant death to keep them in line, and the only way to do that would be to use more brutality. That's why your "ends" in your argument aren't even remotely similar.

If not, then do you agree that the end of Hiroshima did not justify the means either? Or are you another spluttering hypocrite?

The ends of Hiroshima are not the same as the ends of the Empire. Thanks for trying, but no amount of covering your ears and humming "I can't hear you" is going to change that.

Or will you refuse to address this question based on your "they lost so it didn't work so I don't have to deal with it" retort?

I've never used that retort.

[Lord of the Farce]

First off, it's 25 years, not five years till the Vong invasion.

I was inferring to the length of the Yuuzhan Vong war, brainiac.

I'm first waiting for a few things that I know you won't be able to provide. Things like proof that there was a 365 trillion death count.

The death toll for the entire war was almost incalculable, though the figure most often quoted was 365 trillion.

Then some proof that that death count would be lower if the Vong invaded while the Empire was in power.

Besides the Yuuzhan Vong's most experienced spy stating that the Empire would have crushed them?

Then some proof that the Emperor wasn't ever going to use the Death Star again.

Why would the Emperor want to blow the fuck out of planets he had previously been content to leave alone? Especially if we believe the "Palpatine Wanna Suck Your Blood... Eh... Life Force" information?

No, you have imperial propaganda stating that they left the planets alone.

No, I have a Rebel Alliance research document (which is what the Imperial Sourcebook, especially the "A Primer on Imperial Power" chapter, is supposed to be). You lose.

You've decided that your imagination is a valid source of evidence, since you've continually assumed that the Empire wouldn't end up with similar or worse losses by the time the Vong were defeated.

So a vast and organised military would take equal - if not more - casualties than a small, disorganised military which consistently gets split up into even smaller and more disorganised forces because individual planet's politicians cares more about their own interests than facing a growing threat.

[Graeme Dice]

I was inferring to the length of the Yuuzhan Vong war, brainiac.

Then your example doesn't even make sense, since the Empre would have been in power for 25 years by the point that war starts, and the number of casualties in that time caused by standard Imperial brutality could easily make up for that many deaths.

The death toll for the entire war was almost incalculable, though the figure most often quoted was 365 trillion.

So what, it takes almost a week for somebody to bother supplying the evidence?

Besides the Yuuzhan Vong's most experienced spy stating that the Empire would have crushed them?

Yes, besides that. Do you have any breakdown of the casualties by planet? If not, then it's a fair bet that most came from Coruscant. If the Vong can take down its defenses during the NR, then they would have been able to do the same under the Empire as well.

Why would the Emperor want to blow the fuck out of planets he had previously been content to leave alone? Especially if we believe the "Palpatine Wanna Suck Your Blood... Eh... Life Force" information?

He'd have to blow up many other planets, or else he wouldn't be able to control them. You can't rule through the fear of force without continually using force to put down all the myriad rebellions that start when you institute a totalitarian regime.

No, I have a Rebel Alliance research document (which is what the Imperial Sourcebook, especially the "A Primer on Imperial Power" chapter, is supposed to be). You lose.

No, I win, since he still had to use standard imperial persuasion methods on an eightieth of his population.

So a vast and organised military would take equal - if not more - casualties than a small, disorganised military which consistently gets split up into even smaller and more disorganised forces because individual planet's politicians cares more about their own interests than facing a growing threat.

And you once again, try and ignore the fact that the casualties by the time the Vong invasion ends also includes all those people that will end up dead in the decades before they show up, and those people on the worlds that the emperor won't bother defending. After all, he still won't be able to bring together more than a few dozen ships at a time without letting rebellions spring up all over the place.

[Lord of the Farce]

Then your example doesn't even make sense, since the Empre would have been in power for 25 years by the point that war starts, and the number of casualties in that time caused by standard Imperial brutality could easily make up for that many deaths.

Vague implications about brutalities does not equal to proof. Wasn't it you who was harping on about using an individuals' imagination for evidence?

So what, it takes almost a week for somebody to bother supplying the evidence?

Practically everybody and their inbreed cousin knew about the 365 trillion number from The Unifying Force almost from the day of it's release. Not our fault if you plug your ears and shout "Na! Na! Na!".

Yes, besides that. Do you have any breakdown of the casualties by planet? If not, then it's a fair bet that most came from Coruscant. If the Vong can take down its defenses during the NR, then they would have been able to do the same under the Empire as well.

Most of 365 trillion came from a planet of a trillion? EDIT: See this. If we accept a mere 365 trillion casualties, a mere million and a bit of personnel on the Death Star, we also have to accept a mere trillion population for Coruscant.

And unlike the NR, the Empire is willing to shoot down, or simply keep their shields up against refugee and enemy ships in (forced, in the case of the refugee ships) collision course. At least the Empire would have it's piorities right when it comes down to a few thousand lives vs a trillion.

He'd have to blow up many other planets, or else he wouldn't be able to control them. You can't rule through the fear of force without continually using force to put down all the myriad rebellions that start when you institute a totalitarian regime.

You idiot, "fear of force" means to scare potential enemies by using a handful of high profile examples (eg. Hiroshima and Nagisaki), after which YOU DON'T HAVE TO USE FORCE ANYMORE, since the potential enemies would fear the force which you could bring to bear. Or is this too hard for you to comprehend?

No, I win, since he still had to use standard imperial persuasion methods on an eightieth of his population.

Go on, keep trying to move the goal posts around. It's not like anybody will notice.

EDIT: And given that the Empire preferred to leave planets to their own devices, it obviously doesn't follow that they would also prefer to keep their modification of those 80th worlds to a minimum, mostly to the effects of streamlining procedures. Oh no, that couldn't possibly be. Even if "every wrinkle in senatorial policy and procedure became a means to foster larger opportunities" was one of the reasons for the downfall of the Old Republic, as stated in the ISB. [/blatant_sarcasm]

And you once again, try and ignore the fact that the casualties by the time the Vong invasion ends also includes all those people that will end up dead in the decades before they show up, and those people on the worlds that the emperor won't bother defending.

If you are going to keep assuming that the Empire will run around blowing up or depopulating planets for thrills, provide your evidence.

To the matter of fighting the Yuuzhan Vong, Kazuaki Shimazaki pretty much has this covered in the other thread. As for "people on the worlds that the emperor won't bother defending", the Yuuzhan Vong invasion probably would have had it's nuts kicked in before they ever left the Dalonbian Sector, nevermind all the way to the Core Worlds.

After all, he still won't be able to bring together more than a few dozen ships at a time without letting rebellions spring up all over the place.

Unlike in the NR, where open rebellion by Yuuzhan Vong collaborators was meet with... Jack and Shit?

[Connor MacLeod]

And you once again, try and ignore the fact that the casualties by the time the Vong invasion ends also includes all those people that will end up dead in the decades before they show up, and those people on the worlds that the emperor won't bother defending. After all, he still won't be able to bring together more than a few dozen ships at a time without letting rebellions spring up all over the place.

Uhm? Are you seriously suggesting Palpatine can't garner more than a "few dozen warships?" Not true. In "Lando Calrissian and the StarCave of ThonBoka", the Empire was able to assemble literally hundreds of warships to enforce a blockade of the StarCave against the Oswaft. Further, we know that the Empire was able to blockade both the Yavin system and the surrounding Sector sufficiently so that only small ships could successfully approach or leave the planet. And Death Squadron itself had the Executor at least half a dozen ISDs, as well as Victory-class destroyers, frigates, ,and transports (Ref: TESB novelization, Tales of the Bounty Hunters, etc.) - and that doesn't include the twenty other "battleships" mentioned in the novelization and their own escorting ships.

And as a last point, one should keep in mind that according to the ISB, a "fleet" (which genreally comprises hundreds of ships) is always considered the smallest "unit" transferred between Sectors. Obviously this means that a single Sector group should be able to both assemble far more than a "few dozen" ships and function however briefly with the loss of that many ships.

[consequences]

Okay, Graeme, since you like to whine about people wanking without evidence:

1. Please provide evidence that everyone who supports Capital Punishment is in fact a 'mindless troglodyte' in some form of concrete fashion.

2. Please show, in empirical terms, how people are happier to die when they nominally have some involvement in the government, than they would be to continue living in a regime where they don't.

3. If you would be so kind, explain how an anarchy, where there is no control by the individual over more than he can personally influence, is preferable to any form of restrictive government.

4. Explain, without further hyperbole, how the Empire is one of the blackest examples of evil in popular culture, when they barely manage to make third in their own fictional universe.

5. Show how your whining about statistics that never happened is different from other people doing the same.

[Graeme Dice]

1. Please provide evidence that everyone who supports Capital Punishment is in fact a 'mindless troglodyte' in some form of concrete fashion.

This has no bearing on the nature of evidentiary support for arguments about SW. Concession accepted.

2. Please show, in empirical terms, how people are happier to die when they nominally have some involvement in the government, than they would be to continue living in a regime where they don't.

This has no bearing on the nature of evidentiary support for arguments about SW. Concession accepted.

3. If you would be so kind, explain how an anarchy, where there is no control by the individual over more than he can personally influence, is preferable to any form of restrictive government.

This has no bearing on the nature of evidentiary support for arguments about SW. Concession accepted.

4. Explain, without further hyperbole, how the Empire is one of the blackest examples of evil in popular culture, when they barely manage to make third in their own fictional universe.

It's always nice to see people misrepresent the quotations of other people. I never said Empire. I said Emperor. And, of course, you've got nothing over than your fan wanking to show that they are the third worst.

5. Show how your whining about statistics that never happened is different from other people doing the same.

This statement does not even make sense, so I'll just ignore it.

[Graeme Dice]

Vague implications about brutalities does not equal to proof. Wasn't it you who was harping on about using an individuals' imagination for evidence?

Note that the Empire has already been demonstrated to routinely kill of entire planetary populations if the planet rebels. They must continue this policy, or else rebellions will form everywhere.

Practically everybody and their inbreed cousin knew about the 365 trillion number from The Unifying Force almost from the day of it's release.

So what? If people question your evidence you post it regardless of how well known it should be.

Most of 365 trillion came from a planet of a trillion? EDIT: See this. If we accept a mere 365 trillion casualties, a mere million and a bit of personnel on the Death Star, we also have to accept a mere trillion population for Coruscant.

So why don't you outline where all the casualties came from then, and show why the Empire would have cared about all those small insignificant planets.

You idiot, "fear of force" means to scare potential enemies by using a handful of high profile examples (eg. Hiroshima and Nagisaki), after which YOU DON'T HAVE TO USE FORCE ANYMORE, since the potential enemies would fear the force which you could bring to bear. Or is this too hard for you to comprehend?

The problem being, of course, is that it doesn't work unless you demonstrate that you are willing to actually use that force on a regular basis.

Go on, keep trying to move the goal posts around. It's not like anybody will notice.

What moving goal posts? You're the person trying to reinterpret evidence to make the Empire look good. Hence the reason I said you were fanwanking.

EDIT: And given that the Empire preferred to leave planets to their own devices, it obviously doesn't follow that they would also prefer to keep their modification of those 80th worlds to a minimum, mostly to the effects of streamlining procedures. Oh no, that couldn't possibly be. Even if "every wrinkle in senatorial policy and procedure became a means to foster larger opportunities" was one of the reasons for the downfall of the Old Republic, as stated in the ISB.

And of course, lets just ignore those planets that get sterilized for disobeying orders.

If you are going to keep assuming that the Empire will run around blowing up or depopulating planets for thrills, provide your evidence.

They will be required to blow up every planet that starts to rebel, or else the fear of force will quickly evaporate.

Unlike in the NR, where open rebellion by Yuuzhan Vong collaborators was meet with... Jack and Shit?

How is this relevant? The NR is not responsible for the actions of entities it cannot control, such as the Vong.

[consequences]

1. Please provide evidence that everyone who supports Capital Punishment is in fact a 'mindless troglodyte' in some form of concrete fashion.

This has no bearing on the nature of evidentiary support for arguments about SW. Concession accepted.

Strange, you demand that everyone back up anything they say is the case, but you act like a demand for you to do the same is a concession of the argument. Double standard anyone? As a side note, I should take this as a concession that you are talking out you ass on that issue, as you made absolutely no effort to defend your position, but I'll give you another post to rectify that.

2. Please show, in empirical terms, how people are happier to die when they nominally have some involvement in the government, than they would be to continue living in a regime where they don't.

This has no bearing on the nature of evidentiary support for arguments about SW. Concession accepted.

Actually, this has everything to do with showing whether or not the Empire was in fact so worthy of destruction that the sacrifice of trillions of lives was a
worthwhile sacrifice. But since it would actually require you to provide evidence to back up your unsupported assertions, I can understand how you don't want to address the point. Again, you have one post to provide something resembling support for your statements, at which point I will consider you to have conceded this point as well.

3. If you would be so kind, explain how an anarchy, where there is no control by the individual over more than he can personally influence, is preferable to any form of restrictive government.

This has no bearing on the nature of evidentiary support for arguments about SW. Concession accepted.

Since you claimed that an anarchy would be preferable to a totalitarian form of government, I'm pretty sure that you have to provide evidence to back up your claim. Zero for three challenges answered so far, and if these things were as blatantly self-evident as you so blithely assume, providing evidence would be a trivial exercise. If you don't answer any of these promptly, I'm probably just going to save aggravation and go straight to a mod.

4. Explain, without further hyperbole, how the Empire is one of the blackest examples of evil in popular culture, when they barely manage to make third in their own fictional universe.

It's always nice to see people misrepresent the quotations of other people. I never said Empire. I said Emperor. And, of course, you've got nothing over than your fan wanking to show that they are the third worst.

That's right, they one of the blackest examples of pure evil you're likely to find in popular culture.

Explain how 'they' refers to a single individual, bitch. Three evasions and an outright lie, not looking good. In fact, you have just narrowed your category down to hypocritical lying scumfuck, or incompetent oxygen wasting buffoon. Your next post will no doubt provide further clarity, but I've got to say, I'm leaning towards scumfuck.

5. Show how your whining about statistics that never happened is different from other people doing the same.

This statement does not even make sense, so I'll just ignore it.

[/quote]

Your opponent makes an assertion, based on common sense, and historical precedent, when there is a lack of full data behind an incident. You claim that since they have nothing saying exactly what they say happened occured, nothing of the sort could ever have happened, while simultaneously claiming that a version of events that backs up your pet theory is the case, with exactly the same lack of evidence on your side.
This isn't even addressing your 'superweapons require constant use on a population to maintain their aura of fear' argument, that actually has concrete evidence in real life that contradicts it.

Hopefully this will now make sense, if not I can provide it in baby words for you.

[Graeme Dice]

Strange, you demand that everyone back up anything they say is the case, but you act like a demand for you to do the same is a concession of the argument.

Not at all. If your demand for evidence had any bearing on the argument, I'd be happy to provide it. Since your demand has nothing to do with determine what actually occurred in the Star Wars universe, it has nothing to do with the argument.

Actually, this has everything to do with showing whether or not the Empire was in fact so worthy of destruction that the sacrifice of trillions of lives was a worthwhile sacrifice.

So what, you don't think that the deaths of many to overthrow a corrupt, totalitarian evil regime are worthwhile? If that's the case, then you get to join Kaz in the corner reserved for people who dictators love.

Since you claimed that an anarchy would be preferable to a totalitarian form of government, I'm pretty sure that you have to provide evidence to back up your claim.

If you had the reading comprehension of a gnat, you would have seen that I explained how the NR was not a case of anarchy.

Zero for three challenges answered so far, and if these things were as blatantly self-evident as you so blithely assume, providing evidence would be a trivial exercise. If you don't answer any of these promptly, I'm probably just going to save aggravation and go straight to a mod.

Oh boo hoo, the little dipshit who thinks he's made a valid point gets upset when it's pointed out that he hasn't.

Explain how 'they' refers to a single individual, bitch.

It doesn't refer to a single individual. It refers to Darth Vader and the Emperor. Of course, if you weren't lying about my words you'd have already realized that.

Three evasions and an outright lie, not looking good.

You're the one who lied. You misrepresented my words and took them completely out of context.

Your opponent makes an assertion, based on common sense, and historical precedent, when there is a lack of full data behind an incident. You claim that since they have nothing saying exactly what they say happened occured, nothing of the sort could ever have happened, while simultaneously claiming that a version of events that backs up your pet theory is the case, with exactly the same lack of evidence on your side.

I assume that you're trying to bring up Hiroshima and compare it to Alderaan again. I and many others have already explained why the analogy is faulty, so I'll ask you not to bring it up again.

This isn't even addressing your 'superweapons require constant use on a population to maintain their aura of fear' argument, that actually has concrete evidence in real life that contradicts it.

There is no such concrete evidence. If there was, then nuclear tests wouldn't have been used to continually show off how willing governments were to use their superweapons.

The problem with your argument is that you've made an assumption that is completely unsupported by any in-universe evidence. This is the assumption that the Death Star would never be used on any planets other than Alderaan or that the population of these planets would somehow magically be less than those people killed on the outer rim by Vong attacks. This is, of course, an untenable argument.

Hopefully this will now make sense, if not I can provide it in baby words for you.

It makes perfect sense now. You've got no actual argument to make, so you're just throwing up things that are completely irrelevant to the issue at hand.

[Lord of the Farce]

Note that the Empire has already been demonstrated to routinely kill of entire planetary populations if the planet rebels.

Obviously, you still don't understand the Tarkin Doctrine, nor what it means if the Empire preferred to leave planets to their own devices.

They must continue this policy, or else rebellions will form everywhere.

Real world analogs disagree.

So what? If people question your evidence you post it regardless of how well known it should be.

You know what? Fine, we'll just accept this as how you claim it to be. So now, the only person who has yet to provide any evidence into this thread is... YOU.

So why don't you outline where all the casualties came from then, and show why the Empire would have cared about all those small insignificant planets.

First, just to burn that bridge behind you:

The last census put the population of Coruscant at somewhere in the neighborhood of a trillion living beings.

Now, as to where these casualties came from, why the hell do I have to provide outline of where they came from? You're the one who is trying to sneak around the responsibility of proving your assertion that equal casualties would have occurred under the Empire because they would have sat with their thumbs up their asses.
When in reality, the first sector the Yuuzhan Vong entered would have had at least an Imperial Sector fleet waiting, which is plenty enough until reinforcements arrived to stomp the Yuuzhan Vong into space dust. So quite frankly, unless you reckon that a handful of Outer Rims sectors (at most) will yield ANYWHERE NEAR 365 trillion beings, you've simply out of luck.

The problem being, of course, is that it doesn't work unless you demonstrate that you are willing to actually use that force on a regular basis.

Strange, do you see the Japanese taking up arms, or aiding and abetting terrorists, against the USA lately?

What moving goal posts? You're the person trying to reinterpret evidence to make the Empire look good. Hence the reason I said you were fanwanking.

*I provided evidence that the Empire preferred to leave planets alone (despite the Empire having capabilities of BDZ, which can emulate the Death Star to a lesser scale on worlds less well protected than Alderaan).
*You claim that this evidence is Imperial Propaganda.
*I point out that it is in fact a Rebel Alliance research document.
*You promptly claim victory because the Emperor "still had to use standard imperial persuasion methods on an eightieth of his population", despite the fact that the sources that I had already provided indicated that the "modifications" on these worlds meant primarily procedural and palimentary changes, rather than outright suppression of the population, as you seem to be implying.
How are you not trying to move the goal posts?

And of course, lets just ignore those planets that get sterilized for disobeying orders.

Please provide your proof that Base Delta Zero (or equivilent) is standard procedure whenever a planet "disobeys orders".

They will be required to blow up every planet that starts to rebel, or else the fear of force will quickly evaporate.

Just like the Japanese turned around and suddenly started to attack again right after WW2. Right...

How is this relevant? The NR is not responsible for the actions of entities it cannot control, such as the Vong.

LOL, you're the one who claimed that the Empire would simply sit on it's arse while it's planets are being plundered by the Yuuzhan Vong (until they even come close to 365 trillion casualties, at that). Or have you forgotten "So why don't you outline where all the casualties came from then, and show why the Empire would have cared about all those small insignificant planets" already?

[consequences]

For your fourth point, my apologies for calling you a liar and an incompetent for that reason, I misread that.

For everything else, back your shit up. Show that the only measurable characteristic of a government is the freedom that it provides to its citizens. Show that Vader and the Emperor are one of the blackest forms of evil in popular culture(relatively easy for the Emperor, signifigantly more difficult for Vader). Show that a large scale anarchy, where every player involved has the ability to scorch worlds, is preferable to restrictions enforced from above.
Show that someone who isn't directly debating you accusing you of being dishonest in your debating tactics is somehow a concession.
Hiroshima vs. Alderaan.

Your argument so far that they are in no way comparable:
Alderaan had lots more people
Alderaan had a uniqueness of culture that was preserved nowhere else.

Those of us who believe it is a valid analogy:
Neither was willing to surrender
Both could only be destroyed by overwhelming force.
Both had the potential to end the conflict they were a part of, in and of themselves.
The cost of reducing the enemy in both cases was believed to be much higher if overwhelming force was not used(since the Imperials were not omniscient, and had no way of knowing that the DS would be destroyed).
Being part of a galactic civilization for thousands of years, Alderaan had ample time and opportunity to spread its people and culture outwards, which is borne out by the fact that getting the Alderaanian refugees a new planet was a major plot point in "The Courtship of Princess Leia".
The Empire made no known effort to exterminate Alderaanian survivors.
On a galactic scale, Alderaan was little more than Colonial Williamsburg is to us.
There's undoubtedly more, but I can't think of it right now.

[Graeme Dice]

Obviously, you still don't understand the Tarkin Doctrine, nor what it means if the Empire preferred to leave planets to their own devices.

I understand the Tarkin doctrine perfectly, that's why I know that it can't possibly work.

Real world analogs disagree.

Such as? Very few rebel organizations stop because you try and make them afraid of your ability to kill people.

You know what? Fine, we'll just accept this as how you claim it to be. So now, the only person who has yet to provide any evidence into this thread is... YOU.

I've not made any claims about the actual state of the Empire that haven't been backed up by evidence. If you want evidence about the human nature aspects of the debate, then I'll simply point out that your side made the initial claim that the Rebels were a worse government than the Empire for a variety of reasons. Thus you're the one's who have to prove your claims. Until you've provided the evidence to support those claims, I don't have to provide any evidence for my own.

Now, as to where these casualties came from, why the hell do I have to provide outline of where they came from?

Why? This should be obvious even to people as deluded as you and your fellow imperial apologists. If Coruscant was not the major source of those 365 trillion casualties, then the outer rim worlds that would not have been defended under the Empire (ref. Tatooine), would have been where the vast majority of those casualties came from. The end result is the same number of casualties.

Strange, do you see the Japanese taking up arms, or aiding and abetting terrorists, against the USA lately?

Yet another faulty analogy. The U.S. did not rule Japan through fear. They didn't rule them period. They stood back and provided them with the resources to rebuild their economy.

How are you not trying to move the goal posts?

They _still_ were willing to use Standard Imperial brutality. That they didn't sterilize every planet does not, and cannot excuse their atrocities.

Please provide your proof that Base Delta Zero (or equivilent) is standard procedure whenever a planet "disobeys orders".

Alderaan is, of course, the prefect example. So is the deliberate murder of protesters by Tarkin.

Just like the Japanese turned around and suddenly started to attack again right after WW2. Right...

The U.S. continued nuclear tests on a semi-regular basis throughout the cold war and built up massive arsenals. That would be the part where they show that they were willing to use force instead of simply relying on past destruction. Your analogy also fails when you consider that the U.S. did not attempt to rule Japan through fear, but instead let them remain an independent nation.

LOL, you're the one who claimed that the Empire would simply sit on it's arse while it's planets are being plundered by the Yuuzhan Vong (until they even come close to 365 trillion casualties, at that). Or have you forgotten "So why don't you outline where all the casualties came from then, and show why the Empire would have cared about all those small insignificant planets" already?

If those 365 trillion casualties did not come from Coruscant, then they must have come from the outer rim planets that the Empire never bothered to defend.

[Graeme Dice]

For everything else, back your shit up. Show that the only measurable characteristic of a government is the freedom that it provides to its citizens.

Why? Neither Kaz, nor anyone on the Imperial Apologist side have backed up their claims that death counts are all that matters, and you are the ones who initiated those claims. Until you can back those claims up, I have no need to provide any more backing for mine than I already have.

Show that Vader and the Emperor are one of the blackest forms of evil in popular culture(relatively easy for the Emperor, signifigantly more difficult for Vader).

The Emperor initiated a galactic scale takeover of a functioning, if bureaucratic government to replace it with an Empire solely controlled by himself. To do this he used a variety of means such as mind control, murder, the instigation of rebellions and so on. There are few entities in modern popular culture (ie. the last 50 years or so) who have done similar things.

Vader was a psychotic murderer who killed his underlings for fun. That usually qualifies someone as evil.

Show that a large scale anarchy, where every player involved has the ability to scorch worlds, is preferable to restrictions enforced from above.

Every player still has the ability to scorch worlds under the Empire, since the technology to do so is easily and trivially available in the SW universe.

Show that someone who isn't directly debating you accusing you of being dishonest in your debating tactics is somehow a concession.

That's easy. Until the people making the claim supply evidence that actually supports their position, they don't have a valid argument.

Your argument so far that they are in no way comparable:
Alderaan had lots more people

An couple of orders of magnitude at least, if not much more than that.

Alderaan had a uniqueness of culture that was preserved nowhere else.

Yes, this is what makes it an attempted genocide.

You also forgot that Alderaan was in no way a military target, since there was no state of war.

Neither was willing to surrender

Alderaan was never asked to surrender.

Both could only be destroyed by overwhelming force.

The troop complement on the Death Star alone would have been enough to take over a planet as unarmed as Alderaan. The police forces don't even carry weaponry as we see in the Han Solo trilogy.

Both had the potential to end the conflict they were a part of, in and of themselves.

Here, the problem is that you're assuming that Alderaan should have ended the conflict, when they have taken the morally superior position. You are also assuming that they were even given an opportunity to surrender, and that Tarkin wouldn't have simply destroyed them anyways.

The cost of reducing the enemy in both cases was believed to be much higher if overwhelming force was not used(since the Imperials were not omniscient, and had no way of knowing that the DS would be destroyed).

This is an assumption about what Tarkin thought of the matter. The only actual evidence tells us that Tarkin used Alderaan for no reason other than the fact that its destruction would be noticed by the rest of the galaxy. Any other rationalizations of his action fall into the realm of conjecture.

Being part of a galactic civilization for thousands of years, Alderaan had ample time and opportunity to spread its people and culture outwards, which is borne out by the fact that getting the Alderaanian refugees a new planet was a major plot point in "The Courtship of Princess Leia".
The Empire made no known effort to exterminate Alderaanian survivors.
On a galactic scale, Alderaan was little more than Colonial Williamsburg is to us.

Atrocities are not measured by the proportion of the total population that is killed. They are measured by their nature. The murder of two membes of a 10 person family (Which is no different than a city-state on the family scale) is not usually considered to be a worse crime than the murder of 1,000 people in a city of 10,000 or one billion people on a planet of 10 billion, both of which are proportionally smaller.

[Lord of the Farce]

I've not made any claims about the actual state of the Empire that haven't been backed up by evidence.

Why? This should be obvious even to people as deluded as you and your fellow imperial apologists. If Coruscant was not the major source of those 365 trillion casualties, then the outer rim worlds that would not have been defended under the Empire (ref. Tatooine), would have been where the vast majority of those casualties came from. The end result is the same number of casualties.

The Yuuzhan Vong virtually conquered half the known SW galaxy, punching a fat corridor through the Outer Rim, splitting and widening up at Mid Rim, punching three corridors through the Expansion Region and Inner Rim, then punching four arms into the Core Worlds.

So of course, all those 365 trillion casualties came from the Outer Rim planets, none of which the Empire gave a shit about, even if ANH proves that even people of a backwater planet like Tatooine was used to the sight of Stormtroopers, the planet also being a regular source for recruits into the Imperial Academy. Of course. [/blatant sarcasm]

Yet another faulty analogy. The U.S. did not rule Japan through fear. They didn't rule them period. They stood back and provided them with the resources to rebuild their economy.

You idiot, since when do you give "unconditional surrender" to people who you don't fear? And by now, it's clear for all to see that it is "par for the course" that the information from the Rebel Alliance about the Empire preferring to leave planets to their own device has flown clear over your head.

They _still_ were willing to use Standard Imperial brutality. That they didn't sterilize every planet does not, and cannot excuse their atrocities.

We're still waiting for your proof for the claim of "Standard Imperial brutality".

Alderaan is, of course, the prefect example.

Which, of course, is obvious to everyone (besides you) as being anything but standard.

So is the deliberate murder of protesters by Tarkin.

So since when did aeroplanes and helicopters carrying VIP generally land like a fucking rock?

The U.S. continued nuclear tests on a semi-regular basis throughout the cold war and built up massive arsenals. That would be the part where they show that they were willing to use force instead of simply relying on past destruction. Your analogy also fails when you consider that the U.S. did not attempt to rule Japan through fear, but instead let them remain an independent nation.

Ah, so they used a couple of highly visible examples to show what the weapon can do in actual use, and from then on needed only occasional testing examples to maintain the weapons' deterent effect.


Concession accepted.

If those 365 trillion casualties did not come from Coruscant, then they must have come from the outer rim planets that the Empire never bothered to defend.

Read above. I mean, are you really so desperate that the only way you can make the Empire look bad in this particular situation is to pretend that the Yuuzhan Vong attacked only the Outer Rims and Coruscant?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Why? Neither Kaz, nor anyone on the Imperial Apologist side have backed up their claims that death counts are all that matters, and you are the ones who initiated those claims. Until you can back those claims up, I have no need to provide any more backing for mine than I already have.

OK, I think I'd pop in during a Class Break to correct said oversight.

I don't remember saying that the Death Count being the only factor. I noted my dislike of slavery many times, and I don't praise the Empire's restriction of freedoms.

What I do remember saying is agreeing with Rogue 9's proposition that a Primary Duty of the Government is to protect its citizens. Losing 365 trillion of 'em to the planetary-scale enemy known as the Vong is about as shitty as it gets. We all knew the NR had problems before NJO, but nobody would have guessed this could have happened until they saw it.

Even if you think that the maintenance of People's Freedoms is a vital component in a government, the NR still falls behind a long way by that score, because Death can also be expressed as the Ultimate Loss of All Freedoms, not only the commonly mentioned ones like Speech, but more fundamental freedoms such as Movement, Observation, or even the Freedom to Think (a government can restrict your freedom to freely express your thoughts, and they can try and influence your thinking by controlling what gets expressed, but they are hard pressed to seriously impose a law limiting your freedom to think). How, after all, are you supposed to enjoy democracy or your rights to free speech if you are dead!

Death and this Loss happens to everyone, but there is supposedly to be a reason why prematurely causing someone's death is bad, and one can define the cause as because you caused him to prematurely lose those freedoms, for a time period equivalent to his remaining lifespan had you not killed him.

The New Republic government, therefore, via its incompetence, had managed to allow the complete Loss of all freedoms to 365 trillion of its citizens. Even the Empire would be unable to match this.

I remember you not too along ago proudly said that it is better for even 5E20 (meaning more than the total # of known sentients in the SW galaxy) sentients to die during the Yuuzhan Vong invasion than to have a few billion lost to the Peacekeeping efforts of an Authoritarian Government.

You just, therefore, said that even a government that (through incompetence) would effectively manage to lose the freedoms of all its citizens is better than one that does so only to a few billion citizens, and leaves most of its citizens relatively alone. Honestly, this supposedly Freedom-based morality position is clearly indefensible.

The rest looks like mere circling, and Consequences and LOTF are doing just fine. I just wanted to come in and fill in an admitted omission.