Is there anything good about Religion?

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2004-11-04 01:46am

It's long been my opinion that religion is a necessary part of the early evolution of intelligent life, and maybe even beyond that. For animals of lesser intelligence, instincts and raw emotions work just fine; but sapience, while being potentially the greatest achievement of bioligical evolution, brings about its own spread of unique problems.

This is especially true in such a predominantly social species as our own. Altruism is rare in nature, and when our very survival isn't on the line, we need something to make the average person behave themselves. By offering an explanation for the unknown, consolation for mortality and promising/threatening eternal rewards for mortal deeds, religions provide animals bereft of instincts with a solid code of conduct. That's also why religions oppose each other, it's natural selection on the only human attribute that's still really dynamic.

Will there be a day when humanity can once and for all rid itself of religion? I would hope so, but I would be equally pleased if religion became something beneign that we wouldn't have to rid ourselves of.

The latter seems more likely than the former, but neither seems that likely at all.

Oh, and this poll is redundant excersise of manifest redundant redundancy. It's also quite redundant.

Sokartawi · Post by **Sokartawi** » 2004-11-04 05:47am

I'd say spirituality is a good thing, but organized religion is not. Especially not when that organized religion starts creating a whole hierarchy of priests, which eventually gets corrupted and the priests no longer being spiritual but rather seeking to have more power, which is exacly the thing they should not aspire to have.

Likewise, I don't have much of a problem with holy texts, except when people turn their interpretation of it, cause it's nothing more then their interpretation, into hard and unmovable facts which often conflicts with reality. People should learn from holy texts, but should not become close minded from it and believe it's the ultimate source of truth, even when it is it's still human interpretation of it that screws it up to a point it's no longer the ultimate truth anyway, so deal with it.

So basically religion is fine on a personal level, or in groups that does not have a hierarchy, but it's no longer fine when the religious organisation becomes clearly ruled by a priesthood and the followers turn into close-minded fundie sheep.

The Third Man · Post by **The Third Man** » 2004-11-04 07:39am

Darth Wong wrote: It has? I suppose I must be a Philistine, because I can't look at a really expensive, ornate church without feeling a profound sense of revulsion at the greed epitomized therein.

Sadness or a sense of pity for me, when I see, for example, the masons work at York Minster. The skill and dedication evidenced there are almost unbelievable, they must have had generations of stonemasons working on it, who knew they wouldn't even see the project completed in their lifetimes. There are beautiful carved pieces that are not even visible, but they are still made to the highest standards the builders could achieve, because of their religious dedication. It makes me sad, because from my modern atheistic perspective all that amazing skill and effort were expended on and inspired by something now seen as worthless and flawed.

It's an impressive demonstration of the (historic) motivating power of organised religion, and invites the question: Is there any other phenomenon that can motivate people as effectively?

Alan Bolte · Post by **Alan Bolte** » 2004-11-04 09:08am

Well, I can't say I have a problem with people who can honestly come out and say that they just can't be happy without thinking there's fairies or God or spirits out there watching out for them, even though they know intellectually that it doesn't make sense. If the course of your life has made a crutch necessary, and you can admit that - and I have met a number of people like this - then I can respect your beliefs. Otherwise, I want it gone. Out. I've come to hate it almost as much as the devout hate atheists such as myself. And almost any other way to teach morality, ethics, etc. is probably better than organized religion.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-11-04 09:19am

The Third Man wrote: Sadness or a sense of pity for me, when I see, for example, the masons work at York Minster. The skill and dedication evidenced there are almost unbelievable, they must have had generations of stonemasons working on it, who knew they wouldn't even see the project completed in their lifetimes. There are beautiful carved pieces that are not even visible, but they are still made to the highest standards the builders could achieve, because of their religious dedication. It makes me sad, because from my modern atheistic perspective all that amazing skill and effort were expended on and inspired by something now seen as worthless and flawed.

It's an impressive demonstration of the (historic) motivating power of organised religion, and invites the question: Is there any other phenomenon that can motivate people as effectively?

The Five Sisters alone are worthy of respect in regards to pure skill. While I am against the power organised religion can and has attained, the structures erected to praise God or whichever deity takes your fancy aer often beautiful or if that doesn't win you over, technically amazing in composition.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2004-11-04 09:43am

It has? I suppose I must be a Philistine, because I can't look at a really expensive, ornate church without feeling a profound sense of revulsion at the greed epitomized therein.

I kinda like the Hagia Sophia.

Boyish-Tigerlilly · Post by **Boyish-Tigerlilly** » 2004-11-04 09:58am

I think religion habitutates poor thinking on many issues and it breeds irresponsiblity, but I like the architecture.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-11-05 04:45am

It has? I suppose I must be a Philistine, because I can't look at a really expensive, ornate church without feeling a profound sense of revulsion at the greed epitomized therein.

Art isn't restricted to ornate architecture and golden inlay. Even ignoring that I am a Christian, I would find beauty in religiously inspired music. I can lose myself for hours in Gregorian chant or Bach's chorales, and not regret a single moment spent listening to the beauty and the artistry, usually with eyes closed; I've occasionally been accused of falling asleep in concerts, though I never miss a note. I have had the opportunity to sing both hymns and secular music in York Minster, and to hear Evensong at the coronation of the archbishop, and though the sights are already fading, I will not forget the sound. And I'm thinking I've rambled enough. Just know that religiously inspired artistry is not all the product of greed.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-11-05 04:48am

Oh, as for the poll, let's try none of the above. It's both redundant and loaded more than my neighbor's shotguns on the opening day of deer season. The options require either a scathing indictment of religion, or for the voter to paint himself as a moron, or both in the case of the second option. Abstain.

Post by **Dalton** » 2004-11-05 04:57am

I personally believe most religions are primitive and outmoded, but, like everything else, you can find quite a few nuggets of gold if you know where to look.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2004-11-05 05:31am

Frank Hipper wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: It has? I suppose I must be a Philistine, because I can't look at a really expensive, ornate church without feeling a profound sense of revulsion at the greed epitomized therein.
But when I look at Angkor Wat, "greedy bastards" isn't the first thought in my head, even though it's probably more warranted in that case than in a cathedral.

Yes, but the thing is, such things are antique enough for the effort gone into building them to seem very distant. With this, or the pyramids (arguably not neccesserily religious structures as much as symbols of national might, but anyway) it's more a case of, "Holy shit, look at what our [humanity's] ancestors did with primative tools! We have some capacity to not suck all that badly after all."

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-11-05 05:36am

The Third Man wrote:It's an impressive demonstration of the (historic) motivating power of organised religion, and invites the question: Is there any other phenomenon that can motivate people as effectively?

Yes. Sex. That's why Christianity has to demonize sex, because it's such a powerful competitor for the hearts and minds (and wallets) of men.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2004-11-05 05:38am

Darth Wong wrote:
The Third Man wrote:It's an impressive demonstration of the (historic) motivating power of organised religion, and invites the question: Is there any other phenomenon that can motivate people as effectively?
Yes. Sex. That's why Christianity has to demonize sex, because it's such a powerful competitor for the hearts and minds (and wallets) of men.

Money has also proved quite good at providing people with a reason to do things...

Resisting the urge to post a LotR quote; Power also. Though both of the above can be used to gain sex, they also come with other advantages... Namely stuff. So, in summary, materialism is a powerful competitor for religion when the materials are available.

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2004-11-05 05:41am

You don't need religion to get beautiful statuary or architecture. As fiction, Greek, Norse, and Egyptian myths were quite entertaining as a child, although so was The Hobbit.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2004-11-05 05:44am

Imperial Overlord wrote:You don't need religion to get beautiful statuary or architecture. As fiction, Greek, Norse, and Egyptian myths were quite entertaining as a child, although so was The Hobbit.

The Hobbit was better IMO. One writer does tend to be more coherent.

The variations on Set's battle with Horus in Egyptian myth are a somewhat funny case in point though. Ranging from a court case to personal combat to a competition of anal sex. Though the latter one I never heard of as a kid... for some reason.

The Third Man · Post by **The Third Man** » 2004-11-05 06:08am

Darth Wong wrote: Yes. Sex. That's why Christianity has to demonize sex, because it's such a powerful competitor for the hearts and minds (and wallets) of men.

Islam takes a more pragmatic view - when it really wants to motivate people, it makes sex part of the bribe in the form of those nymphomaniac virgins (is that an oxymoron?) awaiting in paradise that we hear so much of. And supposedly, when Islam really, really wanted to motivate its followers it threw a bit of drug dependency into the mix and we got Assassins

Less frivolous point: It's interesting that Nationalism - a phenomenon very closely resembling religion, and my nominee for a competitor in the motivating stakes, has never (as far as I'm aware) seriously attempted to harness or suppress sex drive. Then again, you commonly get nationalists trying to co-opt/suppress religion, which is in turn trying to co-opt/suppress sexuality, and it all gets very tangled.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2004-11-05 06:14am

Buggery laws might count as nationalist repression of Sex. If you strain it...

The Third Man · Post by **The Third Man** » 2004-11-05 06:31am

NecronLord wrote: Buggery laws might count as nationalist repression of Sex. If you strain it...

<Finbar Saunders>
Well I take your point but buggery might be stretching it a bit.
</Finbar>

SWPIGWANG · Post by **SWPIGWANG** » 2004-11-05 10:12am

Religion is something.....

Okay, I lack an unified, corherent system of morality. My morality lies mostly in my whims and feelings. I don't think that my thoughts alone describe myself (or I'd have perfect control over say, emotion) and I do not want to contradict my subconscious parts, at least not without identifying them first.

In general, I dislike religion. I don't like (and perhaps fear) dominating ideas that overrides the immediate, the personal and the observable, may be it be nationalism, religion, or some grand purpose in whatever form.

As for aesthetics, I don't feel religion inspired art as better. I feel awe at the sum and essence of reality that elude me and religion is only an small part of that. While some might argue that religion can provide, to me it simply denys the questions.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2004-11-05 11:09am

nah. nothing good about religion.

relying on faith and ignoring facts = bad.

Lindar · Post by **Lindar** » 2004-11-05 12:41pm

Enforcer Talen wrote:nah. nothing good about religion.

relying on faith and ignoring facts = bad.

Relying on faith is not always bad though! Some people actually get by on the stuff... how isn't really understandable, but they do! So i disagree on that much, but i'll agree with you that ignoring facts can cause problems.

SWPIGWANG wrote:Okay, I lack an unified, corherent system of morality. My morality lies mostly in my whims and feelings. I don't think that my thoughts alone describe myself (or I'd have perfect control over say, emotion) and I do not want to contradict my subconscious parts, at least not without identifying them first.

There is such thing as universal morality you know. Maybe that's what you have.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2004-11-05 12:48pm

yes, they do, but they have a noticeable tendency to go for psuedoscience, not apply critical thinking skills, fall for scams, and be easily persuaded by fallacies.

a good citizen this does not make.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-11-05 04:09pm

Enforcer Talen wrote:nah. nothing good about religion.

relying on faith and ignoring facts = bad.

What about when someone is better off with religion, and enjoys their life more with it? what happens when a person is a liberal/moderate, and merely violates occams razor a bit? Fundy religion is bad, but some people merely prefer to believe in a hgher power watching over them benevolently for whatever personal reasons.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2004-11-05 04:53pm

To quote Rufus "it's a good idea". A good idea ruined by human extreems.

In my community i've seen christians do many good deeds. I've saw one church in particular near my house pour a small fortune into helping the unemployed become employed. I've met Hindu's who treated me like a king in their home. However on the other side of the coin i've seen the elietism that organised religion can breed, i've seen the pure hate it can bring and, living in Northern Ireland, i've seen first hand the atrocities caused in the name of God.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2004-11-05 05:06pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Enforcer Talen wrote:nah. nothing good about religion.

relying on faith and ignoring facts = bad.
What about when someone is better off with religion, and enjoys their life more with it? what happens when a person is a liberal/moderate, and merely violates occams razor a bit? Fundy religion is bad, but some people merely prefer to believe in a hgher power watching over them benevolently for whatever personal reasons.

the trick is when that power starts telling them to do things. religion entails subservience to said higher power, which allows a man to drown kids or blow up abortion clinics. religion is never just about a guardian angel - it goes part and parcel with a whole line of edicts.