"YOu don't know the Power of the Dark Side"

[brianeyci]

" "Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well you should not. For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship."

The Force is more than just the midacloreans (sp?). Its everywhere. And the Force is the defacto god/religeon of the SW universe. Considering that the Jedi 'worship' it and use it for supernatural purposes. Is it a coincidence that the Jedi are very Monk like?

With the introduction of the Unifying and Living Force philociphies, you get a bigger picture of their religion. And the Unifying Force is shown as the Force the oversee's and binds the galaxy together. REF. NJO.

Spoken by characters. The Jedi would want to ascribe their supernatural powers to some higher destiny.

It has never been shown that the metochlorin count is the thing that gives you Force powers. It could be just as well that the Metochlorin count is just an indicator or a side effect or just somehting that happens in a Force user rather than the cause.

And on general religion, I agree with you, but the Force has measurable effects that show that this particular religion is atleast in part real. Perhaps not the Jedi interpertation of it, but it DOES exsist.

Sure it has been shown.

Cause - High Midichlorin Count
Effect - Yoda, Vader (with appropriate training to harness the powers)

The higher the midichlorin count, the more powers the person can potentially have given the right training.

The effects "The Force" has are through the powers of the wielders. Why is it necessary to introduce something external to explain this?

Prove it.

Very well I can't prove that "Balance in the Force" was planted by Palpatine. But "Balance in the Force" being a bullshit prophecy is consistent with my hypothesis.

Again, the metochlorins aren't necessarily explained as that, it could be that they're just a sign, or side effect or an indicator rather than the cause.

And since the Force is shown to have an effect in the SW universe (if for anything else than just showing Palpatine the future and so either setting him up for a fall or allowing him to conqurer and let his own stupidity let him fall) it just cannot be explained as coincidence.

Precognition doesn't have to mean that The Force is external. Other superheroes in different universes can see somewhat into the future.

Why do you need to introduce an external entity like "The Force" to explain the superpowers?

Brian

[brianeyci]

Why should it be internalized and not externalized?

Because of Occam's Razor. What introduces more unnecessary unobserved unknowns?

We know that high midichlorin count is present in Jedi. Since Jedi like Yoda and Vader have high midichlorin count, you can assume that high midichlorin count is responsible for their powers. Therefore their powers are a result of high midichlorin count.

The hypothesis that they "hear the Force" and that The Force exists externally introduces an unobserved unknown.

I know people don't like it, but Lucas introduced a rational explaination for The Force. We aren't forced to appeal to spirituality any more.

<edit> A high midichlorin count is deemed necessary to join the Jedi. Therefore, the midichlorins are responsible for the Jedi's powers, because the Jedi recruit based on who would make potential powerful Jedi. </edit>

Brian

[Mark S]

Since when in the movies do Jedi suppress their emotions? We see them emotional all the time. They aren't Star Wars Vulcans. They listen to their feelings, try to understand them and control them. They do not suppress them.

As for the power of the Dark Side. I think that the Dark Side does give some power to the master over the apprentice. Probably not as direct as mind control but perhaps the master can force his servent to do things he would otherwise not do through other forms of coersion. It could be as simple as Vader knowing that the Emperor could kill him at any time if he disobeys and not wanting to die. Or maybe the apprentice on the path of the Dark Side will do anything for more power and knowledge of the Dark Side and the master is the only one who can give it to him without a lot of work. He has to obey or he will be cut off from that easy in.

[brianeyci]

Since when in the movies do Jedi suppress their emotions? We see them emotional all the time. They aren't Star Wars Vulcans. They listen to their feelings, try to understand them and control them. They do not suppress them.

They aren't Vulcans, but they aren't supposed to love. As well, in KOTOR, Bastila notes that she was trained to supress her feelings. And this is part of the Jedi Code,

There is no emotion; there is peace.
There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
There is no passion; there is serenity.
There is no death; there is The Force.

Sounds like they are trying to supress emotion to me.

Brian

[Knife]

Spoken by characters. The Jedi would want to ascribe their supernatural powers to some higher destiny.

Sorry killer, you need more than that to disreguard the dialouge. Just because he's a character, doens't cut it. Yoda might be biased on the issue but in this instance he's also an expert of the Force. Unless you can come up with actual reason why his expert opinion should be thrown out other than 'well he tends to disagree with me' then suck it down.

Sure it has been shown.

Cause - High Midichlorin Count
Effect - Yoda, Vader (with appropriate training to harness the powers)

The higher the midichlorin count, the more powers the person can potentially have given the right training.

Icecream causes crime.

In the summertime, Ice cream consumption increases.

Also in the summertime, crime increases.

Hence, Icecream causes crime.

All that is shown and mentioned is that the higher the Force potencial you have the more Metrochlorins you have. It is a leap of logic to just say that the metrochlorins CAUSE the Force effects.

The effects "The Force" has are through the powers of the wielders. Why is it necessary to introduce something external to explain this?

Because the exploits of the wielders say they are following the dictates of the Force.

Very well I can't prove that "Balance in the Force" was planted by Palpatine. But "Balance in the Force" being a bullshit prophecy is consistent with my hypothesis.

Now all you have to do is introduce proof to back up your hypothesis.

Precognition doesn't have to mean that The Force is external. Other superheroes in different universes can see somewhat into the future.

Why do you need to introduce an external entity like "The Force" to explain the superpowers?

Brian

And other superhero's in other universes have god like or fate like powers subscribed to 'enities'. That tracted won't help you.

[Ghost Rider]

Why should it be internalized and not externalized?

Because of Occam's Razor. What introduces more unnecessary unobserved unknowns?

We know that high midichlorin count is present in Jedi. Since Jedi like Yoda and Vader have high midichlorin count, you can assume that high midichlorin count is responsible for their powers. Therefore their powers are a result of high midichlorin count.

The hypothesis that they "hear the Force" and that The Force exists externally introduces an unobserved unknown.

I know people don't like it, but Lucas introduced a rational explaination for The Force. We aren't forced to appeal to spirituality any more.

<edit> A high midichlorin count is deemed necessary to join the Jedi. Therefore, the midichlorins are responsible for the Jedi's powers, because the Jedi recruit based on who would make potential powerful Jedi. </edit>

Brian

One...you assume high midicholrian count is an entry for the Jedi Order. You actually have strawmanned Qui Gon's statement that "We hear the Force"

So you assume occam's razor favor you.

Next time dipshit, use Objective evidence rather then your fucking assumptions, dumbfuck because currently you haven't PROVEN your assumptions.

[Knife]

Why should it be internalized and not externalized?

Because of Occam's Razor. What introduces more unnecessary unobserved unknowns?

We know that high midichlorin count is present in Jedi. Since Jedi like Yoda and Vader have high midichlorin count, you can assume that high midichlorin count is responsible for their powers. Therefore their powers are a result of high midichlorin count.

The hypothesis that they "hear the Force" and that The Force exists externally introduces an unobserved unknown.

I know people don't like it, but Lucas introduced a rational explaination for The Force. We aren't forced to appeal to spirituality any more.

<edit> A high midichlorin count is deemed necessary to join the Jedi. Therefore, the midichlorins are responsible for the Jedi's powers, because the Jedi recruit based on who would make potential powerful Jedi. </edit>

Brian

If your going to go for Occam's Razor, show how little microscopic can grant super powers easier than an energy field that binds the universe together.

THe 'Force' isn't an unknown factor. It has been described and has a certain amount of measure to it. As I noted in my last post when you referenced other universes, there are those out there where people get superpowers by godlike enities. So in a ficitonal universe, this explanation is no more complicated than the genetic mutant angle.

[Ghost Rider]

Since when in the movies do Jedi suppress their emotions? We see them emotional all the time. They aren't Star Wars Vulcans. They listen to their feelings, try to understand them and control them. They do not suppress them.

They aren't Vulcans, but they aren't supposed to love. As well, in KOTOR, Bastila notes that she was trained to supress her feelings. And this is part of the Jedi Code,

There is no emotion; there is peace.
There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
There is no passion; there is serenity.
There is no death; there is The Force.

Sounds like they are trying to supress emotion to me.

Brian

Once again strawman, dumbfuck.

Do you remember why they supress their emotions or did you forget that strong emotions can lead to rash actions?

Or does that little thing fly so far over your ignorant little head that all you can do is strawman like a bitch?

[Mark S]

Since when in the movies do Jedi suppress their emotions? We see them emotional all the time. They aren't Star Wars Vulcans. They listen to their feelings, try to understand them and control them. They do not suppress them.

They aren't Vulcans, but they aren't supposed to love. As well, in KOTOR, Bastila notes that she was trained to supress her feelings. And this is part of the Jedi Code,

There is no emotion; there is peace.
There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
There is no passion; there is serenity.
There is no death; there is The Force.

Sounds like they are trying to supress emotion to me.

Brian

This is refuted by the movies unless you care to explain why Obi Wan, Yoda, Qui Gon, the Jedi Librarian... etc, did not suppress their emotions.

[brianeyci]

Sorry killer, you need more than that to disreguard the dialouge. Just because he's a character, doens't cut it. Yoda might be biased on the issue but in this instance he's also an expert of the Force. Unless you can come up with actual reason why his expert opinion should be thrown out other than 'well he tends to disagree with me' then suck it down.

Someone who believed in their powers to a degree that they were religious about it would ascribe their powers to an external destiny. Yoda is an "expert" on The Force only to the extent that he knows how to use it -- we see Yoda deflect Dooku's lightning ball, and he says Dooku has much to learn about The Force.

Icecream causes crime.

In the summertime, Ice cream consumption increases.

Also in the summertime, crime increases.

Hence, Icecream causes crime.

All that is shown and mentioned is that the higher the Force potencial you have the more Metrochlorins you have. It is a leap of logic to just say that the metrochlorins CAUSE the Force effects.

Saying that midichlorins cause The Force effects is less of a leap of logic than saying that midichlorins allow you to listen to The Force and that The Force exists as an external entity.

Because the exploits of the wielders say they are following the dictates of the Force.

Or following the postulates of their religion.

Now all you have to do is introduce proof to back up your hypothesis.

Very well. What is more logical? That the prophecy was planted, or that the prophecy was not planted meaning there has to be the existence of an external entity like The Force? Or that the prophecy was part of ancient Jedi scripture? The second explaination introduces an unnecessary unknown.

And other superhero's in other universes have god like or fate like powers subscribed to 'enities'. That tracted won't help you.

Agreed, point conceded.

Brian

[brianeyci]

If your going to go for Occam's Razor, show how little microscopic can grant super powers easier than an energy field that binds the universe together.

I can't.

Discussion over. Points conceded, and all that, including points brought up by Ghost Rider and Mark S.

Brian

[Knife]

Someone who believed in their powers to a degree that they were religious about it would ascribe their powers to an external destiny. Yoda is an "expert" on The Force only to the extent that he knows how to use it -- we see Yoda deflect Dooku's lightning ball, and he says Dooku has much to learn about The Force.

That doesn't discredit his opinion on the Force, though. THe fact that he knows how to use it to such a high degree implies that he knows a little about it.........

Saying that midichlorins cause The Force effects is less of a leap of logic than saying that midichlorins allow you to listen to The Force and that The Force exists as an external entity.

Why? Basically what this boils down to, since in the SW universe the Force is a measurable thing and not just a hookey religeon, is if tiny mircroscopic creatures can give you superpowers or if a god/destiney/fate like enity can give you super powers.

If you want to have metochlorins give the super powers over the god analouge then indroduce some proof. Especially since the movies imply that the Force is the fate like analouge that "Binds us together."

You can't dissmiss it as BS religious claims becuase the Force has measurable effects in the SW universe.

Or following the postulates of their religion.

THe possiblity of bias is there, but you've introduce nothing to show than anything they say should be disreguarded.

Very well. What is more logical? That the prophecy was planted, or that the prophecy was not planted meaning there has to be the existence of an external entity like The Force? Or that the prophecy was part of ancient Jedi scripture? The second explaination introduces an unnecessary unknown.

Brian

Considering that the phrophacy went down, and that imo Vader brought balence to the Force and the Galaxy, I think its easier to assume that the Phrophacy was real and worked quite well.

[VT-16]

The Force is the metochlorin count in a person which results in special abilities.

NO.

The Force is a mystical energy field that surrounds all things, living or otherwise. The midichlorians enable living beings to communicate with the Force. In other words: They are not the Force themselves. They help create life which in turn creates the Force.

You, as many others who saw TPM didn´t bother to pay attention to what Qui-Gon was saying, and thus the misconception was born.

Midichlorians =/= The Force.

[Lord Revan]

On jedi and emotion (or lack of them). In Darth Maul:shadow hunter explains all the rules in the jedi code.

There is no emotion; there is peace.

Every jedi is in peace his/her emotions and they doesn't make the Jedi do rash judgements

There is no ignorance; there is knowledge

Jedi doesn't make judgement in igorance, but seek to know all facts

There is no passion; there is serenity.

basically the same as rule one, just a different angle on the subject.

There is no death; there is The Force.

Jedi should not fear death, as dying means you become one with the Force.

This is basically the same as in the book, but in my word as that part in the book rather long and it's a long time since I last read the book.

[Winston Blake]

If your going to go for Occam's Razor, show how little microscopic can grant super powers easier than an energy field that binds the universe together.

I can't.

Discussion over. Points conceded, and all that, including points brought up by Ghost Rider and Mark S.

Brian

Congratulations, i now have slightly more respect for you. It's a good thing to concede when you realise you're wrong, rather than stumbling further into absurdity.

[Stark]

I think it's pretty obvious that Sith apprentices are indeed under the control - or compulsion - of their masters. This isn't unusual - the padawan are essentially under the control of their masters too, and I don't doubt that masters use their powers to control unruly padawan all the time - but it's less obvious what form this compulsion takes. Indeed, it should be possible to be an angry selfish force user without being a 'Sith' at all.

Vaders actions (and Mauls, but less so) suggest that Sith grunts are not independent in close proximity to their masters. Vader was a bit of a free spirit, but whenever he Emperor said jump he jumped, even a galaxy away in a massive battleship. This always seemed to me to be motivated by fear, as he's always harping on about the power of the dark side, and not in that 'it rules' kind of way. Throughout ROTJ it seemed clear that he didn't *like* taking Luke to the Emperor etc, but that he didn't have a choice, and when he had he urged Luke not to struggle. I guess Vader was either being directly controlled or simply knew how ludicriously powerful Palpatine was. Even Dooku, powerful enough to stand up to Yoda, acts like a snivelling cur around Palpatine, and he's a cagey bastard, much more so than Anakin or Maul.

[frigidmagi]

He finally realized that giving into the temptation would result in the death of his lineage. Vader's "sacrifice" is a selfish attempt at extending his bloodline.

At this point Vader knows about Leia, if he was worried about his lineage, why wouldn't he just ensure she was turnned or she had offspring that would be raised in the tradition of the Dark Side?

Thus his bloodline is extended and assured.

[Winston Blake]

He finally realized that giving into the temptation would result in the death of his lineage. Vader's "sacrifice" is a selfish attempt at extending his bloodline.

At this point Vader knows about Leia, if he was worried about his lineage, why wouldn't he just ensure she was turnned or she had offspring that would be raised in the tradition of the Dark Side?

Thus his bloodline is extended and assured.

Forget turning her to the dark side, if all he was worried about was the further existence of his bloodline, he could have let the Emperor kill Luke, captured Leia, then lined up some stormtroopers to gangbang her until she was numb and raw. DVDA-style. While he watches.





...or not.

[frigidmagi]

Mods I seemed to have turnned this thread to the power of the porn side... I'm Sorry?

[Bob the Gunslinger]

After having watched the trailer and seeing the effect of Anakin with yellow eyes and looking just plain eeevvviiillll I have to wonder whether Vader was right in ROTJ when he tells Luke that he cannot return to the light side. "You don't know the power of the dark side" almost as if he is compelled to follow his master.

Think of the end of ROTJ, Vader had his hand chopped off, he's battered and bruised, only to hear the Emperor urge Luke to kill him and take his place at the Emperor's side. What's his first instinct? He stands dutifully by his master's side.

I think that the idea that a man becomes his Sith personna when he turns may have some merit. Perhaps Obi Wan isn't the lying bastard we always assumed he was with his 'certain point of view' crap. Perhaps the good man that was Anakin Skywalker is subsumed by the new Vader personna.

The Sith lords literally become slaves to their master.

Just a thought that I think lends some credence as to why they actually physically change when consumed by the dark side of the Force. (ie the eyes)

EDIT: Another quote that occured to me was Yoda's "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny - consume you it will as it did Obi Wan's apprentice." Consume you as in devour what you were. It just dominates and controls you.

Possession by the dark powers? "Consuming" of psychic life energies? Sounds like Lucas is a fan of 40k.

This whole split-persona possession thing is really annoying. Whatever happened to Anakin's responsibility for the dark things he's done? Now he has the excuse that he was taken over by some dark-side personality after one or two bad decisions. What a weasely way to do it.

Now he's reborn as young Ani when he is saved, implying that it wasn't even him inside Vader, just some dark-side shadow of him that pushed his mind out and replaced it. How the hell can Luke feel good in that? Why would the darkside creature care about Ani's son? This whole explanation and retconning by Lucas destroys the dramatic power of redemption and shits all over continuity at the same time.

[VT-16]

This whole split-persona possession thing is really annoying. Whatever happened to Anakin's responsibility for the dark things he's done? Now he has the excuse that he was taken over by some dark-side personality after one or two bad decisions. What a weasely way to do it.

Now he's reborn as young Ani when he is saved, implying that it wasn't even him inside Vader, just some dark-side shadow of him that pushed his mind out and replaced it. How the hell can Luke feel good in that? Why would the darkside creature care about Ani's son? This whole explanation and retconning by Lucas destroys the dramatic power of redemption and shits all over continuity at the same time.

Calm down.

Lucas himself said the story is about how Anakin screws up, turns to the dark side and is redeemed by his son (or in a more general way, both his children, since Leia actively fought his empire for many years before Luke). The whole "stay young"-aspect just refers to his afterlife, where the darker side of him no longer is in control. This has nothing to do with a split persona other than showing that he lets his darker sides take over, and this part of him looses all control when he redeems himself.

[NecronLord]

How is the force an independant entity? It supposedly created Anakin, and given that Shmi had all the force powers of a potato...

[NecronLord]

Forget turning her to the dark side, if all he was worried about was the further existence of his bloodline, he could have let the Emperor kill Luke, captured Leia, then lined up some stormtroopers to gangbang her until she was numb and raw. DVDA-style. While he watches.





...or not.

I'd pay to watch that version of the film.

[Aquatain]

Has any of you listend to lucas comentary in the new RoTJ DVD, i belive he says something like"Darth Vader was the most powerfull of the force users,but because he's now more machine that man,and has lost so much of his real body he has lost most of his power". (i know it's not word for word,but my brother has my dvd's).
This would suggest that the Number of Mediclorines do matter ....i think.

[Stravo]

Has any of you listend to lucas comentary in the new RoTJ DVD, i belive he says something like"Darth Vader was the most powerfull of the force users,but because he's now more machine that man,and has lost so much of his real body he has lost most of his power". (i know it's not word for word,but my brother has my dvd's).
This would suggest that the Number of Mediclorines do matter ....i think.

We got into a rather lively debate on that very issue in a thread started by me on that same issue in the commentary. Lucas states that Vader is weaker because he is now part machine and can never achieve the potential he was meant for in terms of Force power.