Borg/Species 8472/Empire Debate

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-11-05 08:39pm

Sovereign wrote:The STAR DESTROYER is the symbol of the Empire's military might, carrying devestating firepower and assault forces anywhere in the Galaxy to subjugate opposition. A Star Destroyer can easily overtake fleeing craft, blasting them into submission or drawing them into its main hanger with tractorbeams. Imperial Class Star Destroyers are 1600 meters long, bristling with turbolasers and ion cannons, and are equipped with eight giant turret gun stations. Star Destroyers carry 9700 stormtroopers and a full wing of 72 TIE ships (typically including 48 TIE/In fighters, 12 TIE bombers, and 12 TIE boarding craft) as well as a range of attack and landing craft. A single Star Destroyer can overwhelm and entire rebellious planet. Major industrialized worlds are assulted with a fleet of six Star Destroyers operating with support cruisers and supply craft. Such a force can obliterate any defences, occupying or completely destroying cities or settlements.
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This information comes from the cut away book. Is this canon? I thought so. It states that most fleets on there own include only six ISDs and thats for planets that fight back. The next info really gets to me...
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The heaviest weapons on board the Star Destroyer are the SIX turbolaser turrets positioned with the TWO heavy ion cannon turrets along the flanks of the upper deck structure. Fifty Meters in diameter, these turbolasers can overload deflector shields and punch holes in most heavily armored spacecraft. While smaller, fast-moving ships are more difficult to target with the turret guns, even a glancing hit from these cannons will destroy them.
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Where do you get 200? There are LTL but they are not mentions in this book.

First of all, the cut-away book is NOT canon. It is official. What part of this do you not understand? Second of all, the Imperator class Star Destroyer's MEDIUM weapons are almost exactly the same size as the Acclamator's heavy weapons from ICS:AotC, which are rated at 200 gigatons. What part of this do you not understand?

For those of you wondering about his IP address, he has posted from numerous different IP's (one of which is a school account), but he is from Detroit. I do not know of any mods that are from Detroit and who would act like this, even in jest.

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2002-11-05 08:54pm

Master of Ossus wrote:
Sovereign wrote:
For those of you wondering about his IP address, he has posted from numerous different IP's (one of which is a school account), but he is from Detroit. I do not know of any mods that are from Detroit and who would act like this, even in jest.

Well, fuck, I think the only way we'll get rid of this troll is the baning.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-11-05 09:04pm

Master of Ossus wrote:
Sovereign wrote:
For those of you wondering about his IP address, he has posted from numerous different IP's (one of which is a school account), but he is from Detroit. I do not know of any mods that are from Detroit and who would act like this, even in jest.
Well, fuck, I think the only way we'll get rid of this troll is the baning.

Not yet. I'm actually having fun with this. It's been too long without DarkStar, and I'd rather toy around with him for a little while, first. Of course, you can always start the poll and go over my head by going straight to the denizens of SD.net.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2002-11-05 09:06pm

Sovereign wrote:A Borg Cube is very large, it is considered almost invincible. But even a Borg vessel will fall to the collective forces of a hundred smaller, weaker ships. The Imerial Star Destroyer will fall the same way.

For you not to believe the Rebels will be no threat, tell that to the British in the 1700s when a bunch of American farmers defeated the Most powerful empire in the World.

that's moronic. one isd could take out fleets of borg cubes without blinking, and the imperials could throw thousands at the borg, even though they'd only need a few dozen.

as well, how would the americans do when the british can arrive within seconds of alarms, with weapons from 25k yrs in the future, armor that muskets wont even dent, weapons that can annhilate yrs work in seconds, and facing million man armies. it wont work.

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2002-11-05 09:07pm

I'm having fun too, getting some debating practice in. But I think we will eventually get fed up with him and he'll have to be banned. Although he doesn't seem to be as in your face as DarkStar or John Clark were, so it may take a while, or he may go the way of Luser099, but I'm bettting on banning.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2002-11-05 09:50pm

It wasn't "rebel spirit" alone that gave America it's independence. Americans were fighting on familiar land, they had help form France, and they pioneered the type of ground fighting used today. The hid in trees and shot British troops. They set up ambushes. Not only that, the British troops were all in lines, so if you fired your musket, you would be guaranteed to kill at least one of them.

It's not like that in the case of SW VS. ST. The industrial and propulsion advantages of the Empire are far greater than any one side on a war in history. It's like one side still uses sailboats and wagons while the other side has supersonic jets. It's like an army of 1,000 against an army of a billion. It almost elimates any need to spend time planning some clever strategies.

Needa · Post by **Needa** » 2002-11-05 10:34pm

Your copy/paste is short of astonishing. Impressive, really. You can be sure you will be able to win easily in this debate. With those kind of high quality sources I bet you will crush us like bugs.

I'm not surprised you didn't have a title labeled à la John Clark by now. You are too good for that.

Sarcasm off.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2002-11-06 12:28am

FYI, the Americans only won because the British got tired of fighting. They were losing money by fighting both France and the Americans, and decided to cut their losses and make it up in trade with the newly formed country. The same with the War of 1812.

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman · Post by **Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman** » 2002-11-06 05:32am

Sovereign wrote:A Borg Cube is very large, it is considered almost invincible. But even a Borg vessel will fall to the collective forces of a hundred smaller, weaker ships. The Imerial Star Destroyer will fall the same way.

Except, of course, you deliberately left out the number of "smaller, weaker ships" needed to defeat a Borg vessel, and compare it to the number of "smaller, weaker ships" needed to defeat an ISD. I see then, typical asshole.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-11-06 10:18am

Sovereign wrote:A Borg Cube is very large, it is considered almost invincible.

Yes, and kindergardeners consider the 8th grader to be the invincible bully of the playground. However that snot nosed punk gets wedgied and swirlied every day by a highschooler. Do you understand my analogy?

But even a Borg vessel will fall to the collective forces of a hundred smaller, weaker ships. The Imerial Star Destroyer will fall the same way.

Yes, it is simply a manner of mustering enough ships to do so. The borg simply can't fight a war of attrition agaisnt a far stronger enemy. We saw that with 8472

For you not to believe the Rebels will be no threat, tell that to the British in the 1700s when a bunch of American farmers defeated the Most powerful empire in the World.

THe French declaring war on Britian is the only thing tht saved our asses you history ignorant tit.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-11-06 10:26am

My god Sovereign STOP USING THOSE HORRIBLY INVALID HISTORIC PARALLELS!!!

Emprie vs Feds isn't like Colonists vs Brits, it's like US and Soviet Russian armed forces combined vs cavemen!

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2002-11-06 10:36am

anarchistbunny wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:
Sovereign wrote:
For those of you wondering about his IP address, he has posted from numerous different IP's (one of which is a school account), but he is from Detroit. I do not know of any mods that are from Detroit and who would act like this, even in jest.
Well, fuck, I think the only way we'll get rid of this troll is the baning.

Don't ban the guy. I'm a failry novice debater and I need an easy target for practice.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-11-06 10:42am

Sovereign wrote:I only use SOME of the information from these pages...

http://www.furryconflict.com/tech/techn ... tions.html

Does the fact that at the bottom of those pages it asks for more fan submissions mean nothing to you?

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2002-11-06 10:51am

Sovereign wrote:A Borg Cube is very large, it is considered almost invincible.

Correction again: A borg cube is considered almost invincible BY THE FEDERATION.
STOP ASSUMING THE EMPIRE IS EQUAL TO THE FEDERATION.

But even a Borg vessel will fall to the collective forces of a hundred smaller, weaker ships. The Imerial Star Destroyer will fall the same way.

Another NO NUMBERS fallacy. ISD have been proven to have firepower several orders of magnitude greater than borg cubes. Anarchistbunny has shown it would take about TEN THOUSAND cubes to equal ONE Star Destroyer. STOP IGNORING THIS.

For you not to believe the Rebels will be no threat, tell that to the British in the 1700s when a bunch of American farmers defeated the Most powerful empire in the World.

A better alanogy would be modern day USA vs ancient Egypt.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2002-11-06 11:05am

Star Trek: Encyclopedia

Paramount Pictures has made it painfully clear that only the shows are canon. When you make a reference from the Encyclopedia, you need to state which episode/movie the information came from.

Star Trek: Starship Spotter

Not canon. See Encyclopedia coments.

Star Trek: Web Site

Not canon. See above

Star Trek/Star Wars: Furry Conflict

Fan web pages are not even legitimate reference material. We use Mikes page as reference because it is very thoroughly researched and HE NAMES EXACTLY WHERE ALL HIS INFORMATION COMES FROM, right down to page numbers for Star Wars Novels complete with direct quotes from the novel not to mention an extensive database of the CANON material for TNG (the other series are still under construction).
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Database/index.html
If only you would put HALF as much effort into your posts, you would get a lot more respect.

Star Wars: Incredible Cross-Sections

Official source. Good book. However, you have NOT provided ANY information from it that helps your side of the debate.

Star Wars: Web Site

Official source. See Incredible cross sections comments.

Good, we finally got some names from you. But you need to put each name with each quote.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-11-06 11:25am

Good argumentation Servo.
However I doubt Sovereign will actually concede to a point.
He's just too much of a fanatic.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-11-06 11:40am

Nice try Servo...but you're dealing with a moron, to which will blindly plod forward.

He's like a mini DS...only 1/8 as evil(certainly only 1/8 as good...I mean damn...I mean numbskull uses a fan site for INFORMATION towards canon in a debate...oi)

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2002-11-06 12:59pm

Thanks Cpt_Frank and Ghost Rider. I know he's an idiot and has ignored everyone's posts, but its soooo much fun to beat the daylights out of him.

BTW: 100 posts!!!

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2002-11-06 01:51pm

Darth Servo wrote:A better alanogy would be modern day USA vs ancient Egypt.

Damn it, damn it, damn it. Stupid brain fart. I forgot to complete the analogy. The USA (SW Empire) fighting ancient Egypt (The Borg) with Rhode Island rebelling (SW rebellion). Not much to worry about IMHO.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-11-06 02:22pm

Darth Servo wrote:
Darth Servo wrote:A better alanogy would be modern day USA vs ancient Egypt.
Damn it, damn it, damn it. Stupid brain fart. I forgot to complete the analogy. The USA (SW Empire) fighting ancient Egypt (The Borg) with Rhode Island rebelling (SW rebellion). Not much to worry about IMHO.

The Rebellion is far more than just Rhode Island. It did have heavy military cruisers and worse.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-11-06 02:35pm

yeah but fighting it actually didn't require much of the Empire's resources

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2002-11-06 03:50pm

I was checking out Furry Conflict, and my beliefs were correct: he got his Borg stats from them as well.

This is a fraud. End him.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-11-06 03:54pm

You know, somehow Sovereign reminds me of a transport ship with jammed rudder:
always moving around in a cricle and threatening no one.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2002-11-06 04:56pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:I was checking out Furry Conflict, and my beliefs were correct: he got his Borg stats from them as well.

This is a fraud. End him.

No, he's just ignorant and used to thinking of things like they do in Trek (like worry about the type of weapon instead of how powerful it is). He has progressed a bit since he began posting here. He should see the error of his ways after a couple more weeks.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2002-11-06 04:59pm

SirNitram wrote:The Rebellion is far more than just Rhode Island. It did have heavy military cruisers and worse.

O.K. would you care to suggest how much of the U.S. resources rebelling would be proportional to the SW Rebellion?