My conversation with a soldier from Iraq

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2004-11-07 12:44am

Last night was very interesting for me. A girl from my apartment complex invited me out to go to a party for some troops that were on leave from Iraq. So after passing out some counterfeit Iraqi dinars with Saddam's face on them, one of the guys began reading out of his journal. It was very touching and moving, and he was a good friend of the girl I went there with. She even started crying at one point and had to leave the room, and I was getting choked up a little myself.

But spending a night with this guy really just put a human face on the war for me. Because in the course of hearing him read some of his stuff, I began to realize that, even in the theatre of war, the soldiers actually have pretty ordinary concerns. They complain about the bureaucracy in the military like you and I would bitch about office politics. They're not there because they have a hard-on for killing. They're there because it's their job.

After everyone else left, it was just him and me, and we began talking about the war and the justifications surrounding it. He told me that he was equally pissed at both extremes: the anti-war/"Don't Support the Troops" and pro-war/"Support the Troops" people. Because neither of them understand. The people who don't support the troops based on their dislike of the war don't get what soldiers sacrifice. The pro-war people, with their hard-on for American imperialism, don't get it either.

What neither of them get is that a soldier signs away his rights in order to serve the country and places his complete trust in the American civilian government to tell him who is threatening the country and what to do to quell that threat. And I told him that I felt the civilian government had abused that trust that the Armed Forces gives them by sending them to Iraq.

But, he's there. I'm not. He says that he likes what he's doing over there, and he should. He's helping people rebuild and helping to make them safer. But I told him that, as painful as it must be for America to sit by and watch people in other parts of the world suffer, sometimes we just have to. Because in the long run, both he and I agreed that we're not doing Iraq as a nation any favors. He said that the people over there are grateful to have the Americans there, but they want us to do everything for them. We both agreed that Iraq is not really ready for a true, secular democracy.

But what he told me was very surprising. After I'd told him my opinions on our use of the Armed Forces in Iraq and the breach of trust between the civilian government and the army, he said, "You're the only one I've met here who actually understands what's going on over there." This guy is a Bush voter, but he said that he was floored that there was a person on the Left side of the fence who understood what soldiers do for the country. Because I can imagine that, were I in his position and with all the media coverage on all the shit that's going wrong in Iraq, I can see why troops over there would feel that it reflects badly on them as professionals and people.

He really reached out to me, and it felt almost loving. He and all the other soldiers over there have an understanding and a comprehension of brotherhood that I don't really know if I could ever understand. In spite of that, though, he reached out to me as if I was a fellow soldier with him, and that meant a lot to me, coming from a guy I'd just met.

If he's any indication of the caliber of men and women we're sending over there, all I can say is that Iraq is in the best hands they could ever hope for. Those guys and gals are the arms, legs and the big, monster cock of American democracy. And I wish that they weren't there, now more than ever. But they are there, and they're faithfully doing their job. There is no politicking or quibbling over there. To them, it's all about helping the people around them, surviving and the man who's got your back. There's no bullshit when the bullets start flying and the bombs start exploding. They've waived their right not to trust our government, and that is one Hell of a sacrifice. We owe them nothing but the best support we can give. We should be taking care to make sure their trust in us is not abused. If there is one thing that we should all be able to look past all the bureaucratic bullshit to see, it's listening to the soldiers over there and giving them what they need.

So to Jeremy and all those he serves with, you're doing what needs to be done. And I hope that we can bring you back home for good as soon as possible.

Trogdor · Post by **Trogdor** » 2004-11-07 01:23am

That's really touching, Durandal. I for one am proud to say I never had aany beef with the military itself, just with the goverment that had sent it off to do things I felt were unjust.

May our soldiers come back safe and as soon as possible.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2004-11-07 02:59am

I can understand totally what you're saying, Durandal. I've talked quite a bit with a friend of mine who's served two tours in Iraq. We pretty much grew up together, he enlisted trying to find direction in his life while I went off to college, and we've just sat and talked about how there's a difference between supporting the troops and supporting the administration. I think it's an issue America is still dealing with from Vietnam, when soldiers returned and were despised by a significant portion of the population. It caused a sort of fear of demonizing our own people, and an unwillingness to allow any criticism of any stage of the military decision-making process, from executive to grunt.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2004-11-07 03:35am

Thats one of the good things about when we sent our troops off. There were many anti war protests leading upto it. But when they left to when they came home (the majority of the rotation came home that is) they were accorded respect for their jobs and what they did.

Howard even stood up publicly and DEMANDED, not asked but DEMANDED that if you had a problem with his decision, you take it up with HIM, there will be NO attacks of any kind upon our soliders. I remember when a large amount of the personnel had a parade through Sydney after comming home. Even though only months before hundreds of thousands of people had marched down the same streets against the war, they were cheared home enmass. When one guy in the crowd (when they reached the Town Hall where Howard gave a speach) started shouting "Shame Howard, SHame!" he was made to shutup (and near beaten up) by the crowd.

Its one of the things about Australias Martial tradition. The public HAS appeared to learn from the crap of the Vietnam war where people spat on our troops as they came home. Which appeared to be a rather large exception in the history of this country. Its all but tabbo these days to direct any ill fealing to the troops even if their mission is not widely popular.

I can't help but shake my head at the anti war protesters in the US who take it out on the troops. To do so shows a fundemental misunderstanding about what being a solider IS.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2004-11-07 04:42am

and were despised by a significant portion of the population.

Well, aside from the "spit on veterans" myth, in 1980 Gallup polls showed roughly 80% of the population had a higher-than-average opinion of veterans, so I don't think that's true.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2004-11-07 11:33am

All things aside man that was about as touching a tribute as any soldier, sailor, Marine, or airman could ask for so thank you.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-11-07 11:41am

It has always been my sentiment that soldiers carry out orders and although they have opinions too, are not as free to express them when it comes to going to war.

As F9/11 only cemented that view more firmly into my mind, I think everybody, no matter how radically left, should appreciate that these soldiers may be risking their lives for reasons they may or may not agree with. It is their duty and that is what earns them respect in my eyes.

Though I do feel that the majority of people in the UK at least knew our soldiers were only being sent to do a job and that they had no blame in this, just the politicians.

Petrosjko · Post by **Petrosjko** » 2004-11-07 11:48am

At the risk of me-tooing, that was incredibly eloquent and moving.

Maybe you could put it over in tribute thread or some other stickified thread, because it deserves better than just dropping off the face of the board when this discussion wanes.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2004-11-07 03:02pm

Sokartawi's bullshit sent to the HoS.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-11-07 03:03pm

In her mind, violence is never justified. While here we may see the Iraq war for the sham it is, we do not take too kindly to the disrespecting of our servicemen and women. I can only assume that if they have an equivalent to the Poppy Appeal in Sweden that Sokartawi doesn't follow it.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-11-07 03:08pm

Feel free to voice your views over at HoS on that matter, I know I shall. Best not to derail an otherwise fine thread.

Sokartawi · Post by **Sokartawi** » 2004-11-07 03:20pm

My initial post was perfectly relevant to this thread, and I'm currently objecting to this course of action, and I hereby inform you it's not likely I'll reply to your statements in either thread before it is rectified.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-11-07 03:28pm

Sokartawi wrote:My initial post was perfectly relevant to this thread, and I'm currently objecting to this course of action, and I hereby inform you it's not likely I'll reply to your statements in either thread before it is rectified.

Then run the fuck off. God, whiners like you are ridiculous.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2004-11-07 03:38pm

Sokartawi wrote:My initial post was perfectly relevant to this thread, and I'm currently objecting to this course of action, and I hereby inform you it's not likely I'll reply to your statements in either thread before it is rectified.

Feel free to take it up with an admin.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-11-07 03:47pm

The thread has been deemed non-troll worthy work. Really, it was a tad disrespectful to post something like that here anyway, IMHO.

Seggybop · Post by **Seggybop** » 2004-11-07 04:03pm

I have never had anything against soldiers, but I don't understand why they deserver all this praise for volunteering.

How is it a smart thing to willingly forfeit your right to choose your own actions?
Maybe it's necessary or maybe not, but it doesn't seem worthy of such immense respect.

But since you all believe it so fervently, I must be missing something. Please, I don't want to sound in any way like Soka-whatever, but I don't get this.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-11-07 04:05pm

Seggybop wrote:I have never had anything against soldiers, but I don't understand why they deserver all this praise for volunteering.

How is it a smart thing to willingly forfeit your right to choose your own actions?
Maybe it's necessary or maybe not, but it doesn't seem worthy of such immense respect.

But since you all believe it so fervently, I must be missing something. Please, I don't want to sound in any way like Soka-whatever, but I don't get this.

I believe Sokartawi's argument merits a more reasoned response than it initially got, but it was nevertheless not appropriate for this thread as it was a very general pacifist argument not having anything to do with this individual or the particulars of the current situation.

In any case, civilians usually respect soldiers because they are willing to do something that we are not. It is respect for courage, and discipline, and dedication. At least, that is why I respect soldiers; perhaps others have different reasons. From an ethical standpoint, one would call it Virtue Ethics, where you have respect for a man's virtues, if not the very specific kinds of acts which he is forced to do. Killing is bad, but it may be necessary, and a soldier can demonstrate the virtues of courage, dedication, and discipline while doing something that in isolation would be considered immoral.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2004-11-07 06:53pm

Seggybop wrote:I have never had anything against soldiers, but I don't understand why they deserver all this praise for volunteering.

How is it a smart thing to willingly forfeit your right to choose your own actions?
Maybe it's necessary or maybe not, but it doesn't seem worthy of such immense respect.

It's not really about "smart" or "dumb." It's about the people willing to give their rights up to defend the rights of others. It's a pretty big sacrifice to make. Would you do it? I don't think I could. The thought of being in combat, especially in a guerilla warfare zone like Iraq, scares the shit out of me.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2004-11-07 07:50pm

Seggybop wrote:I have never had anything against soldiers, but I don't understand why they deserver all this praise for volunteering.

We don't seek your praise. It's enough for us that we serve our country.

How is it a smart thing to willingly forfeit your right to choose your own actions?
Maybe it's necessary or maybe not, but it doesn't seem worthy of such immense respect.

We forfeit our rights because we believe it's worth it. For many of us getting to serve our country and defend those that can't defend themselves is enough to forfeit those rights. The rewards are something that you cannot really put a finger on, but there's an immense feeling of pride.

But since you all believe it so fervently, I must be missing something. Please, I don't want to sound in any way like Soka-whatever, but I don't get this.

Not everybody gets it. You don't have too, we'll do our job regardless of what people think.

You don't sound like Sockwarti. She is actively opposed to our job and our way of life. You don't understand, there's nothing wrong with that.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2004-11-07 10:03pm

somewhat echoing the cpl, I dont feel comfortable getting heroworshipped, and there is some of that at my college. I go to my work on weekends, you go to yours, thats all there is to it.

Im not some superhero all must praise.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2004-11-07 10:29pm

Enforcer Talen wrote:somewhat echoing the cpl, I dont feel comfortable getting heroworshipped, and there is some of that at my college. I go to my work on weekends, you go to yours, thats all there is to it.

Im not some superhero all must praise.

But we can if we want too:

"Hail Enforcer Talen, fighting injustice with his powers of black eye-liner and camoflauge undies!"

But seriously, we don't particularly want to be fawned over. If you are attractive, and you want to sleep with a soldier, do so by all means, but try to make sure they aren't going to be getting into trouble for it first.

Okay, so I kind of lied about the serious part.

I am not a hero, I am just a man, trying not to shame himself or his comrades.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2004-11-07 10:46pm

Seggybop wrote:I have never had anything against soldiers, but I don't understand why they deserver all this praise for volunteering.

I'm kinda with you on that. I don't expect any kind of praise or admiration for volunteering, I didn't do it to get such. I would prefer people save their praise for those who went off, willing or unwilling, and engaged the enemy with courage and honor. I would simply like to be known as a professional, and given the same respect given to anyone else who does their job the best they can. Call the heros the heros.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2004-11-07 10:57pm

consequences wrote:
Enforcer Talen wrote:somewhat echoing the cpl, I dont feel comfortable getting heroworshipped, and there is some of that at my college. I go to my work on weekends, you go to yours, thats all there is to it.

Im not some superhero all must praise.
But we can if we want too:

"Hail Enforcer Talen, fighting injustice with his powers of black eye-liner and camoflauge undies!"

But seriously, we don't particularly want to be fawned over. If you are attractive, and you want to sleep with a soldier, do so by all means, but try to make sure they aren't going to be getting into trouble for it first.

Okay, so I kind of lied about the serious part.

I am not a hero, I am just a man, trying not to shame himself or his comrades.

hehehe. thats funny. I never got past black lipstick