Airwolf vs An Apache Attack Chopper

[Moonshadow]

which chopper bladed bringer of destruction would win in a fight?

Airwolf
or
An Apache Hellichopter?

[Guest]

Airwolf definitely has the speed advantage over the apache, however, the apache carries advanced missiles. Unfortunately, I believe those missiles are usually only useful against ground vehicles. I think Airwolf takes this one. If this is the really cheesy Airwolf from the later series the apache may be able to put up a good fight though.

[Mr Bean]

Unfortunately, I believe those missiles are usually only useful against ground vehicles. I think Airwolf takes this one. If this is the really cheesy Airwolf from the later series the apache may be able to put up a good fight though.

I belive the Apaches can mount Stingers, failling that Salvoing the Mini-Rockets at the other fellow would ruin his day or the Mini-gun

[Sea Skimmer]

Unfortunately, I believe those missiles are usually only useful against ground vehicles. I think Airwolf takes this one. If this is the really cheesy Airwolf from the later series the apache may be able to put up a good fight though.

I belive the Apaches can mount Stingers, failling that Salvoing the Mini-Rockets at the other fellow would ruin his day or the Mini-gun

The Apache has provisions for a twin stinger launcher on each stub wing. However the US Army has not procured the pylons. However the launcher can also be mounted on one of the four normal hard points. There is also a stub wingtip launcher for the Sidewinder.

So the AH-64 loaded out for air-to-air could have up to 12 stingers or 8 stingers and 2 Sidewinders.

Airwolf is actually probably not any faster then the Apache, though it might be somewhat more maneuverable. AH-64 however is pretty nimble as well. The Ah-64 is almost certainly better armored and more servable. Its also almost cerintly has better sensors with the TADS turret and possibly Longbow radar. Airwolf has maybe a Cobra S level of capability.

Airwolfs biggest drawback seems to be a lack of a turreted nose gun. Air to air combat in the 1980's between Iranian Cobras and Iraq's Gazelles and Hinds showed that the aircraft without such a gun dies, really fast.

Airwolf kicks UH-1 and MD500 ass, but those are nearly a generation behind the Apache, and most didn't have military weapons fits. It can also take on P-51's and B-25, which seemed to be spawning in some evil lair to provide targets.


Airwolf fine for fighting 1970's attack birds or armed transports, but against a moern aircraft like the Apache its outclassed.

[Alyeska]

Airwolf was once able to outclimb US jet fighters and it reached so high in the atmosphere you could see the BLACK of space and could really see the curvature of the planet.

[Sea Skimmer]

Airwolf was once able to outclimb US jet fighters and it reached so high in the atmosphere you could see the BLACK of space and could really see the curvature of the planet.

Really? Must have missed that anti physics episode. They must have stripped repulsorlift's off a crashed Imperil ship they found will hollowing out the mesa base.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Unfortunately, I believe those missiles are usually only useful against ground vehicles. I think Airwolf takes this one. If this is the really cheesy Airwolf from the later series the apache may be able to put up a good fight though.

I belive the Apaches can mount Stingers, failling that Salvoing the Mini-Rockets at the other fellow would ruin his day or the Mini-gun

Actually, the radar-guided Hellfire IIs can take out airborne targets, they're just not designed to be very maneuverable.

Also, the AH-64 mounts a 30mm "chaingun", not an actual mini-gun.

[Lt. Nebfer]

whats an "Airwolf"

how bout vers a Mil-24 Hind D or a or a ka 50 (that new ruskey attack choper(the one that beat the mils desine)??

[Kuja]

Airwolf was a speedy, well-armed attack chopper from an '80s TV show of the same name.

[Sea Skimmer]

whats an "Airwolf"

how bout vers a Mil-24 Hind D or a or a ka 50 (that new ruskey attack choper(the one that beat the mils desine)??

Kit bashed Bell 222 from Hell. It's an advanced attack helicopter built by the CIA, stolen by its designers, and then stolen back by an American operative. He however refused to return it until there was an investigation into his brother who was MIA in Vietnam. While he's waiting he uses it to fight crime in the American southwest with a base inside of a mesa. That’s what the series was about.

Main weapon is a belly pack of three missile launchers though I think there's also a gun. Its performance has been mentioned elsewhere. Fast and maneuverability, though evidently to an impossible level that’s rarely used.

The Ka-50 and 52 are both inferior to an AH-64D so there's no point in comparison. The Mi-24D is obsolete and the flower of early 1970's Soviet tech. It's totally outclassed, the 24-E/F less so.

[greenmm]

whats an "Airwolf"

how bout vers a Mil-24 Hind D or a or a ka 50 (that new ruskey attack choper(the one that beat the mils desine)??

Kit bashed Bell 222 from Hell. It's an advanced attack helicopter built by the CIA, stolen by its designers, and then stolen back by an American operative. He however refused to return it until there was an investigation into his brother who was MIA in Vietnam. While he's waiting he uses it to fight crime in the American southwest with a base inside of a mesa. That’s what the series was about.

Main weapon is a belly pack of three missile launchers though I think there's also a gun. Its performance has been mentioned elsewhere. Fast and maneuverability, though evidently to an impossible level that’s rarely used.

The Ka-50 and 52 are both inferior to an AH-64D so there's no point in comparison. The Mi-24D is obsolete and the flower of early 1970's Soviet tech. It's totally outclassed, the 24-E/F less so.

Belly launchers apparantly used "Hellfire" missiles. Don't know if they were the same kind used on the Apache or not. Also, they seemed to have more than just 1 per tube -- perhaps an internal launcher.

Each side sponson also apparantly had at least 1, if not 3, M2 .50cal HMG's. Perhaps not quite up to snuff against some parts of the Apache, but IIRC not all portions of the Apache have the anti-Soviet-23mm armor on them.

A few real kickers in Airwolf's favor, though:

1. Better speed. Aside from normal helicopter movement, Airwolf apparantly had "jet boosters" for short bursts of speed. Don't know if it could break Mach 1 or not -- and even if the show said it did, the rotor wasn't designed for transonic speeds. But at a conservative guess, boosted speed was probably 2-3 times what the Apache can do.

2. Advanced computer system. Apparantly, just by picking up a target on radar, they could identify the make and model of the target.

3. Real kicker: the belly launcher was trainable. Was at least able to train 90 degrees to either side, but it's possible that it could at least train 180 if not 360 degrees. That's bad news for the Apache, since it has to be pointed towards its targets to use its missiles. Airwolf, in contrast, could hit a target it was flying parallel to... which either means its missiles were fire-and-forget, or its internal targeting system was very trainable as well.

As for its reported space walk... don't think it quite made it that high, but when they were having a computer virus problem, they jet-boosted up to an insane altitude, so high up that they had to seal up their flight suits so that they could depressurize the cockpit. Yeah, I know, that's not how you get rid of a computer virus, but what do the writers know about computers?

[Sea Skimmer]

whats an "Airwolf"

how bout vers a Mil-24 Hind D or a or a ka 50 (that new ruskey attack choper(the one that beat the mils desine)??

Kit bashed Bell 222 from Hell. It's an advanced attack helicopter built by the CIA, stolen by its designers, and then stolen back by an American operative. He however refused to return it until there was an investigation into his brother who was MIA in Vietnam. While he's waiting he uses it to fight crime in the American southwest with a base inside of a mesa. That’s what the series was about.

Main weapon is a belly pack of three missile launchers though I think there's also a gun. Its performance has been mentioned elsewhere. Fast and maneuverability, though evidently to an impossible level that’s rarely used.

The Ka-50 and 52 are both inferior to an AH-64D so there's no point in comparison. The Mi-24D is obsolete and the flower of early 1970's Soviet tech. It's totally outclassed, the 24-E/F less so.

Belly launchers apparantly used "Hellfire" missiles. Don't know if they were the same kind used on the Apache or not. Also, they seemed to have more than just 1 per tube -- perhaps an internal launcher.

Each side sponson also apparantly had at least 1, if not 3, M2 .50cal HMG's. Perhaps not quite up to snuff against some parts of the Apache, but IIRC not all portions of the Apache have the anti-Soviet-23mm armor on them.

A few real kickers in Airwolf's favor, though:

1. Better speed. Aside from normal helicopter movement, Airwolf apparantly had "jet boosters" for short bursts of speed. Don't know if it could break Mach 1 or not -- and even if the show said it did, the rotor wasn't designed for transonic speeds. But at a conservative guess, boosted speed was probably 2-3 times what the Apache can do.

2. Advanced computer system. Apparantly, just by picking up a target on radar, they could identify the make and model of the target.

3. Real kicker: the belly launcher was trainable. Was at least able to train 90 degrees to either side, but it's possible that it could at least train 180 if not 360 degrees. That's bad news for the Apache, since it has to be pointed towards its targets to use its missiles. Airwolf, in contrast, could hit a target it was flying parallel to... which either means its missiles were fire-and-forget, or its internal targeting system was very trainable as well.

As for its reported space walk... don't think it quite made it that high, but when they were having a computer virus problem, they jet-boosted up to an insane altitude, so high up that they had to seal up their flight suits so that they could depressurize the cockpit. Yeah, I know, that's not how you get rid of a computer virus, but what do the writers know about computers?

Its Possible to with a sufficiently small wavelength to identify different tank and aircraft types. Longbow can tell a tank from a BTR but it can't tell you want model tank. Not useful in this scenario though, and the lack of a most sight indicates that any radar most be forward in the nose, and fixed.

All US Army Apaches carry a 30mm cannon. Those sold to the UK do not IIRC. Sidewinder X, can also hit targets flying alongside the user. As can the cannon, which is going to be lethal with one hit.

Speed is really not useful. Helicopter battles are hid and seek affairs in all but the most open of terrain, and since braking with a helo means climbing, high speed is a bad idea.

[TrailerParkJawa]

Airwolf has a better theme song, but my money would be on the Apache. Id also bet on Whiskey cobras as well. Both can pack Sidewinders for air to air.
Both have a chin turret. Neither is piloted by Jan Michael Vincent and Ernest Borgnine.

[Sea Skimmer]

Airwolf has a better theme song, but my money would be on the Apache. Id also bet on Whiskey cobras as well. Both can pack Sidewinders for air to air.
Both have a chin turret. Neither is piloted by Jan Michael Vincent and Ernest Borgnine.

And then they all get killed by the Ka-74

[Kettch]

And then they all get killed by the Ka-74

Especially with that horizontal quickstart ability.

See the new Angels Trailer http://www.movie-list.com/

[Sea Skimmer]

And then they all get killed by the Ka-74

Especially with that horizontal quickstart ability.

See the new Angels Trailer http://www.movie-list.com/

I'm not finding anything about a Soviet Air to Air heilcopter there.

[Vympel]

Ka-50/52 inferior to AH-64D? Why? They seem about the same to me.

[KhyronTheBackstabber]

What about the Blue Thunder?

[greenmm]

What about the Blue Thunder?

Probably more heavily armored than Airwolf, but it lacks a long-range punch -- the gatling gun just doesn't have the range of Airwolf's missiles.

The thing, though, is that Blue Thunder was meant more as an urban tactical support helicopter than a military assault vehicle.

[greenmm]

Kit bashed Bell 222 from Hell. It's an advanced attack helicopter built by the CIA, stolen by its designers, and then stolen back by an American operative. He however refused to return it until there was an investigation into his brother who was MIA in Vietnam. While he's waiting he uses it to fight crime in the American southwest with a base inside of a mesa. That’s what the series was about.

Main weapon is a belly pack of three missile launchers though I think there's also a gun. Its performance has been mentioned elsewhere. Fast and maneuverability, though evidently to an impossible level that’s rarely used.

The Ka-50 and 52 are both inferior to an AH-64D so there's no point in comparison. The Mi-24D is obsolete and the flower of early 1970's Soviet tech. It's totally outclassed, the 24-E/F less so.

Belly launchers apparantly used "Hellfire" missiles. Don't know if they were the same kind used on the Apache or not. Also, they seemed to have more than just 1 per tube -- perhaps an internal launcher.

Each side sponson also apparantly had at least 1, if not 3, M2 .50cal HMG's. Perhaps not quite up to snuff against some parts of the Apache, but IIRC not all portions of the Apache have the anti-Soviet-23mm armor on them.

A few real kickers in Airwolf's favor, though:

1. Better speed. Aside from normal helicopter movement, Airwolf apparantly had "jet boosters" for short bursts of speed. Don't know if it could break Mach 1 or not -- and even if the show said it did, the rotor wasn't designed for transonic speeds. But at a conservative guess, boosted speed was probably 2-3 times what the Apache can do.

2. Advanced computer system. Apparantly, just by picking up a target on radar, they could identify the make and model of the target.

3. Real kicker: the belly launcher was trainable. Was at least able to train 90 degrees to either side, but it's possible that it could at least train 180 if not 360 degrees. That's bad news for the Apache, since it has to be pointed towards its targets to use its missiles. Airwolf, in contrast, could hit a target it was flying parallel to... which either means its missiles were fire-and-forget, or its internal targeting system was very trainable as well.

As for its reported space walk... don't think it quite made it that high, but when they were having a computer virus problem, they jet-boosted up to an insane altitude, so high up that they had to seal up their flight suits so that they could depressurize the cockpit. Yeah, I know, that's not how you get rid of a computer virus, but what do the writers know about computers?

Its Possible to with a sufficiently small wavelength to identify different tank and aircraft types. Longbow can tell a tank from a BTR but it can't tell you want model tank. Not useful in this scenario though, and the lack of a most sight indicates that any radar most be forward in the nose, and fixed.

All US Army Apaches carry a 30mm cannon. Those sold to the UK do not IIRC. Sidewinder X, can also hit targets flying alongside the user. As can the cannon, which is going to be lethal with one hit.

Speed is really not useful. Helicopter battles are hid and seek affairs in all but the most open of terrain, and since braking with a helo means climbing, high speed is a bad idea.

Usefullness of target identification would depend on the scenario. Unless the Apache pilots have full info on Airwolf's capabilities, though, then all they know is that they need to take out another helicopter one-on-one. OTOH, even if Airwolf's crew weren't familiar on their own with Apache characteristics, their ability to identify the Apache, as well as know its performance characteristics, could give them an edge.

I'm not sure how much traverse the 30mm cannon has on the Apache. However, I'm pretty sure that even with 90 degree traverse capability, you will probably also have some range issues to deal with. Unpowered cannon rounds tend to have shorter ranges than self-propelled guided missiles. Also, how will the AIM-9X be able to attack a target to the side if it doesn't acquire the target first? And more importantly, since it will be fired forward and have to turn to acquire Airwolf, how will that beat a Hellfire from Airwolf that's pointed from launch directly at the Apache?

I also disagree with the notion that speed is a liability in air-to-air combat. If you can't keep up with your opponent, how can you fire effectively at them? If your opponent has superior speed, how do you prevent them from getting into attack position first? And despite what the movies show, most helicopter battles aren't meant to include helicopter-vs-helicopter duels. Helicopters normally carry SAM's to protect themselves as a self-defense measure. If you want an air interceptor, you normally go with a fighter, not a helicopter.

Not to mention Airwolf's countermeasure systems, which definitely include flares and possibly chaff dispensers. I've had trouble finding any evidence that the Apache has such dispensers installed, as it may depend more on passive IR countermeasures to avoid being shot down. Of course, if Airwolf's Hellfires are identical to the laser-guided Hellfires used on the Apache, then flares, IR countermeasures, and chaff canisters would be useless, since a laser-guided Hellfire would ignore those decoys completely...

[RadiO]

British Apaches do have the 30mm cannon - doesn't really mean much at the moment, since most of them are stuck in a hangar or two at RAF Shawbury.
Airwolf IIRC had a pair of bigass cannons on the sponsons. But they were boresighted down the aircraft's centreline, so the Apache could try to stay out of their field of fire while engaging Airwolf with its own gun.

[Moonshadow]

a side note on Blue Thunder. Anyone who played the Sega Thunder Blade series notice The Chopper is the Blue Thunder?

[Sea Skimmer]

Ka-50/52 inferior to AH-64D? Why? They seem about the same to me.

Ka-50 lacks a second crew man, and while the Ka-52 correct this it still has major electronics and sensor shortcomings compared to the Apache D. The the AT-16 is excellent for a laser guided weapon, the fire and forget Longbow Hellfire is a whole new level of capability.

[Sea Skimmer]

Belly launchers apparantly used "Hellfire" missiles. Don't know if they were the same kind used on the Apache or not. Also, they seemed to have more than just 1 per tube -- perhaps an internal launcher.

Each side sponson also apparantly had at least 1, if not 3, M2 .50cal HMG's. Perhaps not quite up to snuff against some parts of the Apache, but IIRC not all portions of the Apache have the anti-Soviet-23mm armor on them.

A few real kickers in Airwolf's favor, though:

1. Better speed. Aside from normal helicopter movement, Airwolf apparantly had "jet boosters" for short bursts of speed. Don't know if it could break Mach 1 or not -- and even if the show said it did, the rotor wasn't designed for transonic speeds. But at a conservative guess, boosted speed was probably 2-3 times what the Apache can do.

2. Advanced computer system. Apparantly, just by picking up a target on radar, they could identify the make and model of the target.

3. Real kicker: the belly launcher was trainable. Was at least able to train 90 degrees to either side, but it's possible that it could at least train 180 if not 360 degrees. That's bad news for the Apache, since it has to be pointed towards its targets to use its missiles. Airwolf, in contrast, could hit a target it was flying parallel to... which either means its missiles were fire-and-forget, or its internal targeting system was very trainable as well.

As for its reported space walk... don't think it quite made it that high, but when they were having a computer virus problem, they jet-boosted up to an insane altitude, so high up that they had to seal up their flight suits so that they could depressurize the cockpit. Yeah, I know, that's not how you get rid of a computer virus, but what do the writers know about computers?

Its Possible to with a sufficiently small wavelength to identify different tank and aircraft types. Longbow can tell a tank from a BTR but it can't tell you want model tank. Not useful in this scenario though, and the lack of a most sight indicates that any radar most be forward in the nose, and fixed.

All US Army Apaches carry a 30mm cannon. Those sold to the UK do not IIRC. Sidewinder X, can also hit targets flying alongside the user. As can the cannon, which is going to be lethal with one hit.

Speed is really not useful. Helicopter battles are hid and seek affairs in all but the most open of terrain, and since braking with a helo means climbing, high speed is a bad idea.

Usefullness of target identification would depend on the scenario. Unless the Apache pilots have full info on Airwolf's capabilities, though, then all they know is that they need to take out another helicopter one-on-one. OTOH, even if Airwolf's crew weren't familiar on their own with Apache characteristics, their ability to identify the Apache, as well as know its performance characteristics, could give them an edge.

Longbow can tell you the target is a helicopter. That’s really all they need to know. Airwolf predates helo stinger launchers or the Apache being rated for AIM-9, so there just as likely to die from lack of information.

I'm not sure how much traverse the 30mm cannon has on the Apache. However, I'm pretty sure that even with 90 degree traverse capability, you will probably also have some range issues to deal with. Unpowered cannon rounds tend to have shorter ranges than self-propelled guided missiles. Also, how will the AIM-9X be able to attack a target to the side if it doesn't acquire the target first? And more importantly, since it will be fired forward and have to turn to acquire Airwolf, how will that beat a Hellfire from Airwolf that's pointed from launch directly at the Apache?

The 30mm cannon rounds can reach out 2000 meters and kill a T-55 frontally at 1200 meters. They pack a damn lot of punch and range. One hit will be fatal to airwolf.

AIM-9X can see targets slightly over 90 degrees off bore site. Both stingers and AIM-9 are far superior to the Hellfire for air to air. There fire and forget while Airwolfs weapons would be semi active laser. They also have a massive performance advantage against fast maneuvering targets and proximity fused warheads. Hellfire was meant to drop down on tanks moving maybe 30 mph. Direct fire against a another helicopter would result in it rapidly running out of maneuvering energy, the motor burns out very quickly. An Apache would have an easy time maneuvering outside of the weapons extremely limited air-to-air performance envelope. The Stinger is superior in every respect for air to air, and the AIM-9 far more so.



I also disagree with the notion that speed is a liability in air-to-air combat. If you can't keep up with your opponent, how can you fire effectively at them? If your opponent has superior speed, how do you prevent them from getting into attack position first? And despite what the movies show, most helicopter battles aren't meant to include helicopter-vs-helicopter duels. Helicopters normally carry SAM's to protect themselves as a self-defense measure. If you want an air interceptor, you normally go with a fighter, not a helicopter.

Airwolf has demonstrated the ability to outrun a Stinger or AIM-9 maybe once in four seasons, despites any other times when supersonic speed would have been useful. If its running away and the Apache has a shot its going to die, and if it must run for any real distance that that’s normally considered an accept of defeat. After all, a F-15 could defeat several regiments of MiG-29's simply by flying away from them until they run out of fuel but that’s not a realistic scenario.

If you disagree about speed. Then you disagree with reality. The Iran Iraq war showed that helicopter-to-helicopter battles where decide by maneuver not speed, and that speed was for the most part an impediment to the maneuvers, especially when there where any kind of terrain obstructions. The US Army considered an attack helicopter that could have sustained 350 knots, it rejected the speed as useless on a battlefield and built the 150 knot Apache.


Not to mention Airwolf's countermeasure systems, which definitely include flares and possibly chaff dispensers. I've had trouble finding any evidence that the Apache has such dispensers installed, as it may depend more on passive IR countermeasures to avoid being shot down. Of course, if Airwolf's Hellfires are identical to the laser-guided Hellfires used on the Apache, then flares, IR countermeasures, and chaff canisters would be useless, since a laser-guided Hellfire would ignore those decoys completely...

Apache has Chaff, flares and an infrared jammer standard. Infrared jammers greatly fuck over targeting lasers, which are also infrared and on the same bands as air to air missile seekers.

[Dahak]

In the show they said that Airwolf can go supersonic...