Turbolasers in upper atmosphere

[Soulman]

Wouldn't a ship being destroyed in the battle have pretty devestating effect on the planet? Even just the debris raining down should cause a lot of damage.

[VT-16]

Oh noes, we might be getting another Endor-debacle...

[brianeyci]

Which is kind of neccessery for a BDZ, yes. Given that if they're not firing at full power, there's no way they're going to be able to damage each other behind shields, a stray shot should create a massive explosion like this one, but I very much doubt it will.

ROTS will have severe implications. You can explain out-of-universe by saying that "The filmmakers suck", but that kind of explaination doesn't work with the rules we are using.

If the following happens,

1. An Acclaimator, or some other vessel of which we know the exact yield of decides to shoot at a ground target.

2. The target on the ground is unshielded.

3. There is no reason for the shot to be "powered down" and no reason for the Acclaimator to be worried about collateral damage to friendly troops

Then we have a contradiction between the ICS and the movies, with which the movie is correct. I started an "explosive energy" thread to clarify what situations, if any which a 200GT shot in the atmopshere against an unshielded target shouldn't create a massive fireball. I didn't get any explaination about unshielded targets in atomosphere.

Brian

[Connor MacLeod]

If the following happens,

1. An Acclaimator, or some other vessel of which we know the exact yield of decides to shoot at a ground target.

That depends on the kind of ground target. Most ground targets that would be targeted by orbital bombardment should be able to be taken care of with low/sub megaton range yields. Anything larger ought to be unneccessary - targets durable enough to survive say a gigaton range impact or greater are probably designed as defenses against BDZ attacks and its unlikely the Separatists intend to render Coruscant uninhhabitalbe (and hence would not bother attacking them) Furthermore, needless civilian casualities would not benefit them in the least.

2. The target on the ground is unshielded.

Which unless explicitly stated to be the case in the movies, is not going to neccesarily be a problem.

3. There is no reason for the shot to be "powered down" and no reason for the Acclaimator to be worried about collateral damage to friendly troops

Again, unlikely to be a problem unless they explicitly make mention of it (and refer to something like a "heavy turbolaser") - as I said before, most SW ground targets aren't designed to shrug off more than a low-megaton range bombardment, and those that are would more than likely be designed to withstand far greater outputs (like a Base Delta Zero.)

Then we have a contradiction between the ICS and the movies, with which the movie is correct.

Thank you for pointing out the obvious. The very last thing we needed is another person capable of blindly restating what everyone else can figure out on his or her own.

I started an "explosive energy" thread to clarify what situations, if any which a 200GT shot in the atmopshere against an unshielded target shouldn't create a massive fireball. I didn't get any explaination about unshielded targets in atomosphere.

It depends on the size and composition of the target (especially the internal composition), as well as other mitigating factors like the presence of other forcefield technologies (tensor fields, ,etc.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Wouldn't a ship being destroyed in the battle have pretty devestating effect on the planet? Even just the debris raining down should cause a lot of damage.

Depends on alot of factors. On one hand we have Honoghr as an obvious example (even though the catastrophe there seems largely to be relegated to long term consequences more than short term "extinction level" energy release) but on the other we have the Core ship shot down by SPHA-Ts in AOTC (Which tossed up alot of dust and was rated as a "kiloton range" event IIRC by Mike.) The size and mass of the ship is a big factor, as is the height it falls from (which influences the velocity at which it impacts, ignoring for a second the possibility of repulsor failure acceelerating it into the ground like the core ship in AOTC). There might be certain onboard weapons that would be volatile or dangerous in an atmosphere (antimatter explosives, charged weapons batteries - the energy has to go somewhere after all, etc.)

reactor/fuel supply is an iffy thing. Normally I dont believe hypermatter is by itself highly reactive (it only is reactive under certain conditions I believe) so a ship's crash will not "touch off" the fuel supplies like it mgiht with say, an antimatter powerplant. However, a damaged reactor might very well undergo a "catastrophic chain reaction", sort of like what happened with both Death STars. In most cases of this, though, I'm fairly certain that it would not only vaporize teh starship, but immediately render the planet lifeless. However, I doubt we would see such effects in ROTS so the possibility of reactor failures is not likely to be a problem.

There are of course long-term consequences - chemical and radioactive poisoning, fallout, etc...

[Connor MacLeod]

I call you a pessimist. I just don't see them bothering to track a turbolaser as it goes hurtling down to the planet's surface to do nothing.

Actually I think its a valid concern, because similar instances have already shown up in the movies. AT-ATs firing into the "snow" in TESB, the ground battle on Geonosis, the blasted "trees" in ROTJ, and the Queen's Yacht escaping from Naboo past the Trade Federation blockade (when one battleship is firing on the Yacht and some of the shots fly past towards the planet.)

In fact, the chances of a heavy weapon striking Coruscant are quite low- all the pictures of the battle show ships *above* (as opposed to in front of) the curvature of Coruscant, and as we all know, the heavy weapons of Republic/Imperial warships are all on the dorsal strucutre.

Preferrably yes. Assuming that the ships tend to maintain a fairly high altitude above each other and are not positioned in any way to fire "down" on an opponent, this might be quite probable. However, I am not 100% certain that there will NOT be instances of enemies firing "down" on one another, and hence the possibility of "near-misses" exists. Not neccesarily an irreconcilable problem, but it would be an annoyance (if for no other reasons that we'll get irrationalist morons claiming its "proof" that refutes the ICS.)

[brianeyci]

That depends on the kind of ground target....

A structure no matter how well designed with super-space age materials can't prevent this, this, this, this, or this from happening if something a few hundred megatons hits it. Unless it is shielded.

And those are 19 kt, 21 kt, 31 kt, 225 kt, and 50 megatons respectively. SW turbolasers should, if as high powered as claimed, create these types of reactions when hitting unshielded targets.

...unlikely the Separatists intend to render Coruscant uninhhabitalbe (and hence would not bother attacking them) Furthermore, needless civilian casualities would not benefit them in the least.

Which is why I listed number three as a precondition. I saw some robots walking on a lava planet, and ships fighting on a lava planet in the Trailer. That definitely isn't Coruscant, unless they fucked it up with their stray turbolaser shots.

Which unless explicitly stated to be the case in the movies, is not going to neccesarily be a problem.

If we see a turbolaser blast hit the ground, the ground can be assumed to be unshielded.

Again, unlikely to be a problem unless they explicitly make mention of it (and refer to something like a "heavy turbolaser") - as I said before, most SW ground targets aren't designed to shrug off more than a low-megaton range bombardment, and those that are would more than likely be designed to withstand far greater outputs (like a Base Delta Zero.)

If the ships are fighting each other in the atmosphere, they have to be using full-powered shots to get through each other's shields. And I am talking about the huge fireball. No huge fireball on an unshielded target, no megaton or even kiloton explosion.

Thank you for pointing out the obvious. The very last thing we needed is another person capable of blindly restating what everyone else can figure out on his or her own.

Just reminding the masses

It depends on the size and composition of the target (especially the internal composition), as well as other mitigating factors like the presence of other forcefield technologies (tensor fields, ,etc.)

I don't understand how a huge fireball can be prevented no matter what magical materials the target is made of. No huge fireball, no megaton or even kiloton range weapons.

Brian

[The Original Nex]

If the ships are fighting each other in the atmosphere, they have to be using full-powered shots to get through each other's shields.

Not necesarilly. They just have to fire alot more shots in order to get through.

I don't understand how a huge fireball can be prevented no matter what magical materials the target is made of. No huge fireball, no megaton or even kiloton range weapons.

SW weapons don't explode, so why would there need to be a fireball? They vapourize everything in the immediate viscinity of the impact site, they'd only create a fireball if they hit something volatile. Fireballs aren't inherently connected with high energy, or tonnage.

[brianeyci]

Fireballs aren't inherently connected with high energy, or tonnage.

Are you saying that releasing 200 GT of energy into a unshielded target would not create a huge fireball effect in an atmosphere?

Brian

[Lord Poe]

Then we have a contradiction between the ICS and the movies, with which the movie is correct.

Yeah, keep that fantasy of yours alive, asshat.

[brianeyci]

Yeah, keep that fantasy of yours alive, asshat.

Fantasy or not, it is a valid point. WYSIWYG, and I'm foaming at the mouth for ROTS. They're probably going to call an orbital bombardment at some point in the movie. If not, oh well.

Also, now that I think of it... why didn't the Acclaimators in the Battle of Geneosis just fire a couple turbolaser blasts and annihilate the Droid army?After the Jedi were evacuated, why not simply take out the Droid army and Count Dooku with a couple turbolaser shots?

Brian

[Ghost Rider]

Yeah, keep that fantasy of yours alive, asshat.

Fantasy or not, it is a valid point. WYSIWYG, and I'm foaming at the mouth for ROTS. They're probably going to call an orbital bombardment at some point in the movie. If not, oh well.

Also, now that I think of it... why didn't the Acclaimators in the Battle of Geneosis just fire a couple turbolaser blasts and annihilate the Droid army?After the Jedi were evacuated, why not simply take out the Droid army and Count Dooku with a couple turbolaser shots?

Brian

Because they wanted to CAPTURE THEM.

Stop fucking being so goddamn dumb to things that were in the movie

[Gustav32Vasa]

Then we have a contradiction between the ICS and the movies, with which the movie is correct.

Yeah, keep that fantasy of yours alive, asshat.

I thought that the movies was highest canon.

If I'm wrong please ignore this.

[brianeyci]

Then we have a contradiction between the ICS and the movies, with which the movie is correct.

Yeah, keep that fantasy of yours alive, asshat.

I thought that the movies was highest canon.

If I'm wrong please ignore this.

I think Lord Poe is referring to my "fantasy" dream of debunking the ICS.

I have no such goal btw.

Brian

[Gustav32Vasa]

Also, now that I think of it... why didn't the Acclaimators in the Battle of Geneosis just fire a couple turbolaser blasts and annihilate the Droid army?After the Jedi were evacuated, why not simply take out the Droid army and Count Dooku with a couple turbolaser shots?

Brian

Because they wanted to CAPTURE THEM.

I hope you mean they wanted to capture Dooku not capture the droids.

And they didnt want to harm the innocent bugs.

[Vympel]

That is not the fantasy to which he's referring. Put simply, ROTS is the last chance the other side of the vs. debate has to refute the ICS. Therefore, needless to say, many of us are pretty anxious about what's going to happen. A thoughtlessly underwhelming display of firepower would suck, quite simply.

[brianeyci]

Because they wanted to CAPTURE THEM.

Stop fucking being so goddamn dumb to things that were in the movie

If they had control over the energy in their turbolaser blasts, the wouldn't have to blow up the whole planet, just fire around the battlefield and take out a ton of droids. Orbital bombardment.

Do we have indications that Geneosis was protected by a planetary shield? I don't remember any orbital bombardment at all, although I could have just missed it.

Brian

[Gustav32Vasa]

I think Lord Poe is referring to my "fantasy" dream of debunking the ICS.

I have no such goal btw.

Brian

Whats wrong with the ICS. I think its great with the extra info we get on ships and such.

[Ghost Rider]

Because they wanted to CAPTURE THEM.

Stop fucking being so goddamn dumb to things that were in the movie

If they had control over the energy in their turbolaser blasts, the wouldn't have to blow up the whole planet, just fire around the battlefield and take out a ton of droids. Orbital bombardment.

Do we have indications that Geneosis was protected by a planetary shield? I don't remember any orbital bombardment at all, although I could have just missed it.

Brian

Holy shit...your lack of military knowledge is appalling.

So when we went into capturing Saddam, why didn't we fucking pepper the area with lower explosives...and ferret him.

My God, let's get this man an award for spanking his monkey because he's thinking like a retard sci fi wanker instead of understanding why infantry are still used in this day and age.

[Vympel]

If they had control over the energy in their turbolaser blasts, the wouldn't have to blow up the whole planet, just fire around the battlefield and take out a ton of droids. Orbital bombardment.

Do we have indications that Geneosis was protected by a planetary shield? I don't remember any orbital bombardment at all, although I could have just missed it.

Brian

The reason is in the ITW: AOTC, I'll have to go home to read it though.

[brianeyci]

Holy shit...your lack of military knowledge is appalling.

So when we went into capturing Saddam, why didn't we fucking pepper the area with lower explosives...and ferret him.

My God, let's get this man an award for spanking his monkey because he's thinking like a retard sci fi wanker instead of understanding why infantry are still used in this day and age.

Look. I'm not saying that the clone troopers weren't needed. The clone troopers drop down, do there thing, and rather than run up al la charge of the light brigade, why not stand still and have a shitload of turbolasers shoot down and kill a lot of droids? If the droids don't come out, then start moving forward. I understand that you need infantry to hold and take territory.

There wasn't any orbital support at all (to my knowledge), and my question is simple : why not?

<edit> when I said "turbolaser shoot down" I meant orbital turbolasers </edit>

Brian

[Ghost Rider]

Holy shit...your lack of military knowledge is appalling.

So when we went into capturing Saddam, why didn't we fucking pepper the area with lower explosives...and ferret him.

My God, let's get this man an award for spanking his monkey because he's thinking like a retard sci fi wanker instead of understanding why infantry are still used in this day and age.

Look. I'm not saying that the clone troopers weren't needed. The clone troopers drop down, do there thing, and rather than run up al la charge of the light brigade, why not stand still and have a shitload of turbolasers shoot down and kill a lot of droids? If the droids don't come out, then start moving forward. I understand that you need infantry to hold and take territory.

There wasn't any orbital support at all (to my knowledge), and my question is simple : why not?

Brian

Maybe it was because they didn't know where the fuck the Seperatist leadership was, nor Dooku while the primary battle was going so insteazd of doing the dumbfuck thing and killing who you want to capture, they wisely led their ground forces.

[brianeyci]

Maybe it was because they didn't know where the fuck the Seperatist leadership was, nor Dooku while the primary battle was going so insteazd of doing the dumbfuck thing and killing who you want to capture, they wisely led their ground forces.

That is a good point that I never thought of. They didn't know where Dooku was, and he might have been charging through the front lines a la Mace Windu.

It didn't occur to me because from my viewpoint, villains never jepordize themselves in the front lines when they have tons of goons, or in Dooku's case droids . Of course in-character, the Jedi couldn't assume Dooku wouldn't rush out and charge with the Droidekas.

Brian

[Vympel]

Actually I think its a valid concern, because similar instances have already shown up in the movies. AT-ATs firing into the "snow" in TESB

I've heard the AT-ATs firing at snow complaint, but I don't see how someone could be so inane as to think a focused beam striking snow is supposed to result in any huge display of firepower, especially when not even at maximum firepower at the time (we already know what maximum firepower does )

the ground battle on Geonosis

Really?

the blasted "trees" in ROTJ

I always found them blowing those trees apart pretty cool actually. Much more firepower than a scout vehicle should have, and it wasn't even using it's grenade launcher. People use this?

and the Queen's Yacht escaping from Naboo past the Trade Federation blockade (when one battleship is firing on the Yacht and some of the shots fly past towards the planet.

I've never heard anyone bring this up. We don't see the shots land, so it's not like anyone can make a determination. Naboo has a sparse population anyway.

Preferrably yes. Assuming that the ships tend to maintain a fairly high altitude above each other and are not positioned in any way to fire "down" on an opponent, this might be quite probable. However, I am not 100% certain that there will NOT be instances of enemies firing "down" on one another, and hence the possibility of "near-misses" exists. Not neccesarily an irreconcilable problem, but it would be an annoyance (if for no other reasons that we'll get irrationalist morons claiming its "proof" that refutes the ICS.)

Yup, it seems so.

[Darth Wong]

That is not the fantasy to which he's referring. Put simply, ROTS is the last chance the other side of the vs. debate has to refute the ICS. Therefore, needless to say, many of us are pretty anxious about what's going to happen. A thoughtlessly underwhelming display of firepower would suck, quite simply.

Needlessly underwhelming displays of firepower never stopped Trekkies in the past. They still wank over the dull-brown rings in "The Die is Cast" as uber-energy events, and they still use "low yield settings" to explain pretty much everything else away, even if it makes no sense in context.

Will we see brilliant blooming fireballs in ROTS? Not likely. But given that we know they are deliberately using unconventional weapons for this battle (note that according to the Hyperspace articles in the official site, the Separatists will be deploying projectile cannons for this event), they are obviously trying something new, perhaps because they know the potential MAD consequences of using high-powered energy weapons where the side-effects would kill Coruscant's population. Projectile weapons may be deployed in order to take advantage of the impulse-coupling effect of high-mass projectiles at short range, and a defense system previously optimized against energy weapons.