Japan's Navy put on high alert due to unidentified sub

[frigidmagi]

He's not wrong.

[Stormbringer]

To have peaceful resolution requires two willing parties. Otherwise one side can scream all it wants has the other marches all over them. Considering the friends I have in Japan, I rather avoid any marching over of it.

Nevertheless, Japan has a right to try like it stated. I reserve them that right, and if it turns ugly, then Japan can rightly defend itself.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the U.S. bound to come to Japan's defense? The Tokyo Bay treaty specifies that Japan is not allowed to keep a military (that's why it's the "Self-Defense Forces"), and that the U.S. must defend Japan against outside military threats.

I don't know how tightly we're bound. But yes, we do have obligations to defend Japan in the case of it being over their heads. If nothing else for the fact that we gutted their ability to do more than fighting a small defensive war.

I don't know - I am not that involved, or informed of the treaties.

Then perhaps you should pay attention to what those that do say?

[HemlockGrey]

"Spotted near Okinawa?" I second the recommendation for a peaceful resolution....

[Stormbringer]

"Spotted near Okinawa?" I second the recommendation for a peaceful resolution....

Shep aside, who does want war?

[HemlockGrey]

Probably no one, but least of all me, considering I live on one of the biggest targets in the Pacific.

Still, I'm betting the sub is probably Chinese, and no more than idle saber-rattling. One would have to be truly stupid to attack Japan, considering that would mean facing off against the two of the most powerful militaries on the globe.

[LordShaithis]

Was probably Chinese anyway.

[Stormbringer]

Probably no one, but least of all me, considering I live on one of the biggest targets in the Pacific.

Still, I'm betting the sub is probably Chinese, and no more than idle saber-rattling. One would have to be truly stupid to attack Japan, considering that would mean facing off against the two of the most powerful militaries on the globe.

It was most likely Chinese. Koreas sub fleet isn't great shakes but the Chinese have been taking steps to get theirs going. Their boats are also a lot closer to real blue water boats than the DPRK's.

[Ma Deuce]

If it was nuclear I'd bet my bottom dollar it was Chinese: The North Koreans don't have nuke boats (just a fleet of aging Soviet-built Romeo-class diesel boats)...

[Master of Ossus]

I'm guessing it was Chinese, and China would be NUTS to attack Japan. It would face them off squarely against the US and Japan (fighting a defensive war and the Chinese have no over-water invasion capability to speak of), with the South Koreans almost certainly getting involved and probably allowing Taiwan an opportunity to formally split if it wanted to. It would also bring retaliatory action raining down, and China's infrastructure is nowhere near established enough to weather even a small bombing campaign.

[Ma Deuce]

China would be NUTS to attack Japan. It would face them off squarely against the US and Japan (fighting a defensive war and the Chinese have no over-water invasion capability to speak of),

While all this is true, it should be noted that Japan's naval forces alone are more than a match for those of China with no help from the Americans. In fact, Japan now has the most powerful Navy (which it is by every definition, despite it's official name) in the Pacific next to the USN...

[moku]

Then perhaps you should pay attention to what those that do say?

What is wrong with me stating that I didn't know something? Is it that every human in the world should suddenly be aware of Japanese - US treaties? I am sorry, but we haven't covered something like in school, nor have I read into it in my own time.

[Stormbringer]

Then perhaps you should pay attention to what those that do say?

What is wrong with me stating that I didn't know something? Is it that every human in the world should suddenly be aware of Japanese - US treaties? I am sorry, but we haven't covered something like in school, nor have I read into it in my own time.

I more object to the way you've just barged into the thread and blustered, only then asking questions.

[moku]

Then perhaps you should pay attention to what those that do say?

What is wrong with me stating that I didn't know something? Is it that every human in the world should suddenly be aware of Japanese - US treaties? I am sorry, but we haven't covered something like in school, nor have I read into it in my own time.

I more object to the way you've just barged into the thread and blustered, only then asking questions.

I am not sure whether you noticed, but I created the thread - and asked some questions which were gradually being answered and I added some other questions. Then Rogue 9 wrote that he was quite sure of something, and i simply stated that I wasn't sure and didn't know. I don't get it?

[phongn]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a nuclear torpedo be a hell of a lot less effective than a bomb or missle?

Absolutely. However, they are a tool for those who lack other means of effective nuclear delivery.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

A forgein power is crusing a nuclear sub around your waters. What are the odds they just came to play Yahzee?

Is there something to be really so excited about? I've read that American subs have been infiltrating Russian territorial waters for decades. I guess the Chinese (if it is a nuke, I don't think it'd be NK) just wanted to try playing a game the Americans had been playing for decades.

And just a question, how many of the experts here think that the Japanese had really classified that sub already, and just wanted to leave an inch more room for backdoor negotiations.

Maybe it is a water problem, but a Type 091 Han should be very easy to classify (by sub standards at least). The sub's supposedly as noisy as a November (the noise estimate I read came to 160dB). It also has a Chinese built unique reactor. It is a single-screw boat, but AFAIK the Han does not use the 7-blade screw configuration (the US and the modern Russian boats if those are sailing should all be 7-bladed screws by now).

[Ted C]

A forgein power is crusing a nuclear sub around your waters. What are the odds they just came to play Yahzee?

Pardon me, but is there any real evidence that this is a nuclear submarine? I've seen just one unverified statement to that effect from an unnamed source. Since it was spotted on the surface, it could easily be a diesel-electric sub. Let's not jump to conclusions.

[MKSheppard]

Sink it. It's what the Russians would do

[Rogue 9]

Sink it. It's what the Russians would do

And the fact that the Russians would do it makes it a good idea because...

[Montcalm]

Sink it. It's what the Russians would do

Yeah thats kind of what they did to Korean Air Line flight 007 in the 1980s

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Pardon me, but is there any real evidence that this is a nuclear submarine? I've seen just one unverified statement to that effect from an unnamed source. Since it was spotted on the surface, it could easily be a diesel-electric sub. Let's not jump to conclusions.

It is just about impossible for them to have spotted the durn thing visually and not yet have a classification. Even if the sub somehow manages to dive before it is captured onto the film of some high-zoom camera or observed by an observer with binoculars, they would be smothered by sonobuoys.

Sink it. It's what the Russians would do

It would be within their legal rights (though the world would scream anyway), but IIRC the Russians, even when they discovered American subs, generally only get annoyed and of course try to drive them off. At worst, if they surface, the game's up.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

At least AFAIK it'd be within their legal rights. Maritime law ain't my thing, but AFAIK warships are not supposed to be allowed to get within national waters, but usually if they are sail openly and pose no threat (neither of which could be true with a submerged American spy sub which may or may not be carrying nuclear weapons), general convention is that you ignore them.

[MKSheppard]

but IIRC the Russians, even when they discovered American subs, generally only get annoyed and of course try to drive them off.

And of course, encourage their submarines to ram 'em. That's what high
command berated the crew of K-19 for not doing when they ran across
the USS Nautilus scoping them out during shakedown trials.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

And of course, encourage their submarines to ram 'em. That's what high command berated the crew of K-19 for not doing when they ran across the USS Nautilus scoping them out during shakedown trials.

Some of them are more aggressive, I'd admit.

[Rogue 9]

but IIRC the Russians, even when they discovered American subs, generally only get annoyed and of course try to drive them off.

And of course, encourage their submarines to ram 'em. That's what high
command berated the crew of K-19 for not doing when they ran across
the USS Nautilus scoping them out during shakedown trials.

Ramming in a submarine? They like losing subs or something?

[MKSheppard]

Ramming in a submarine? They like losing subs or something?

Remember, double hulls + strengthened bows for artic operations.