LOS ANGELES, November 9, 2004 - At 7:50 PM two armored tanks showed up at an anti-war protest in front of the federal building in Westwood. The tanks circled the block twice, the second time parking themselves in the street and directly in front of the area where most of the protesters were gathered. Enraged, some of the people attempted to block the tanks, but police quickly cleared the street. The people continued to protest the presence of the tanks, but about ten minutes the tanks drove off. It is unclear as to why the tanks were deployed to this location.
Here is video of the event.
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Anybody hear or know how the military is spinning this story? I really would like to know what a tank was doing strolling around in downtown L.A.
I'm studying for the CPA exam. Have a nice summer, and if you're down just sit back and realize that Joe is off somewhere, doing much worse than you are.
Well--indymedia has an axe to grind, given that John Ashcroft tried to shut them down a while back but still--even if it's just a light armored vehicle, sending them to scare a bunch of screaming protestors is a little excessive, right?
dr. what wrote:Well--indymedia has an axe to grind, given that John Ashcroft tried to shut them down a while back but still--even if it's just a light armored vehicle, sending them to scare a bunch of screaming protestors is a little excessive, right?
It's not like it was trying to run them over or anything.
dr. what wrote:Well--indymedia has an axe to grind, given that John Ashcroft tried to shut them down a while back but still--even if it's just a light armored vehicle, sending them to scare a bunch of screaming protestors is a little excessive, right?
Were they sent to scare them? They might've just been trying to go somewhere, and ended up stuck at the protest (the video was shitty, so I can't tell if they were stuck waiting for the cops to clear the streets or, well, what they were doing really).
Or it could just be the individual vehicle commanders were being idiots. I don't know and it's hard to tell with that video. All I can see is the crewmen basically just sitting there. If they're saying anything or doing anything more than just looking around them, I can't make it out. Nor can I see if their forward progress is blocked at all.
If they did the whole circling the streets thing like the article claims, I couldn't spot it in that video.
Although I did see a protester get their sign whacked by a bus because they decided to hold it out too far.
"How can I wait unknowing?
This is the price of war,
We rise with noble intentions,
And we risk all that is pure..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, Forever (Rome: Total War)
"On and on, through the years,
The war continues on..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, We Are All One (Medieval 2: Total War)
"Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear." - Ambrose Redmoon
"You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain." - Harvey Dent, The Dark Knight
No it's a LAV-III (probably USMC): Note the turreted autocannon, something no Stryker variant has...
It's my guess they were simply passing through and were stopped by the protesters: Note how they drove off afterwards...
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HAB: Crew-Served Weapons Specialist
"Making fun of born-again Christians is like hunting dairy cows with a high powered rifle and scope." --P.J. O'Rourke
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dr. what wrote:Well--indymedia has an axe to grind, given that John Ashcroft tried to shut them down a while back but still--even if it's just a light armored vehicle, sending them to scare a bunch of screaming protestors is a little excessive, right?
It's not like it was trying to run them over or anything.
Good point--I'm just curious about the intimination level used. Seems to me that this was just a little war protest--why not just send a bunch of riot cops to stand around and look mean? Somebody must have known that if they show up with a LAV, all the conspiracy nuts will go ape-shit.
dr. what wrote:Good point--I'm just curious about the intimination level used. Seems to me that this was just a little war protest--why not just send a bunch of riot cops to stand around and look mean? Somebody must have known that if they show up with a LAV, all the conspiracy nuts will go ape-shit.
How do you know they were sent specifically to that area specifically because of the protest?
It could be any number of things, like they were going somewhere and got unlucky, or the VCs decided to stop on their own (in which case they're going to get bitched at for sure), or any number of other things, rather than some General somewhere saying, "Well, gee, an anti-war protest. Let's send some combat vehicles down there to scare them damn hippies!"
Unless you've got an article or something showing it was a deliberate act on the part of their commanders or whatever, they are any number of other possible explanations.
Maybe some of the resident Marines/soldiers would know if they'd normally use surface streets to go from place to place like that?
"How can I wait unknowing?
This is the price of war,
We rise with noble intentions,
And we risk all that is pure..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, Forever (Rome: Total War)
"On and on, through the years,
The war continues on..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, We Are All One (Medieval 2: Total War)
"Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear." - Ambrose Redmoon
"You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain." - Harvey Dent, The Dark Knight
Anyway, I see National Guard, and every so often, an Air Force radar Humvee thingy driving around here, as well as military helos and jets flying overhead all the time. Having military vehicles out on the streets isn't a totally unheard of thing. Although I've only ever seen the truck convoys, and not actual armored (or whatever) combat vehicles. Then again, the only local armory around here that even has such vehicles is the Marine Reserve unit, and they operate AAVs. So I doubt they'd have much reason to cruise down Fowler in those, or whatever.
But what the local NG unit does have (as well as the occasional thing from MacDill) I will see driving about every so often.
"How can I wait unknowing?
This is the price of war,
We rise with noble intentions,
And we risk all that is pure..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, Forever (Rome: Total War)
"On and on, through the years,
The war continues on..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, We Are All One (Medieval 2: Total War)
"Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear." - Ambrose Redmoon
"You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain." - Harvey Dent, The Dark Knight
Why don't tanks ever show up at protests in Canada? That would be cool, especially if they showed up at some of those annoying public-sector worker strikes that seem to herald the coming of autumn every year in Toronto.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
dr. what wrote:
Good point--I'm just curious about the intimination level used. Seems to me that this was just a little war protest--why not just send a bunch of riot cops to stand around and look mean? Somebody must have known that if they show up with a LAV, all the conspiracy nuts will go ape-shit.
I saw no evidence of intimidation. I think the protestors are having dellusions of grandure.
They looked like LAV's to me. LAPD might have some LAV's or Strykers but not with a Bushmaster autocannon on em. Those jarheads were probably in route to Fort Ord or some other training groud further up north than Pendleton. Military traffic goes through or around LA all the time.
I do find it funny that the protestors, with a group of military right in front of them, are trying to block them while saying "Bring the troops home." Guess what dip shit, those guys are home.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
Darth Wong wrote:Why don't tanks ever show up at protests in Canada? That would be cool, especially if they showed up at some of those annoying public-sector worker strikes that seem to herald the coming of autumn every year in Toronto.
Remember when those natives in Quebec took over a golf course (some dispute about it being part of their ancestral lands, IIRC), and it got to the point where the Army sent in its Leopard tanks?
The M2HB: The Greatest Machinegun Ever Made.
HAB: Crew-Served Weapons Specialist
"Making fun of born-again Christians is like hunting dairy cows with a high powered rifle and scope." --P.J. O'Rourke
"A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." --J.S. Mill
Man--you should see how the conspiracy nuts are doing with this story.....
I'm leaning towards the Admiral and other's opinion on this--either it was really bad timing or some (soon to be very low-level) guy got into head to scare some protestors.
Anyway, I see National Guard, and every so often, an Air Force radar Humvee thingy driving around here, as well as military helos and jets flying overhead all the time. Having military vehicles out on the streets isn't a totally unheard of thing. Although I've only ever seen the truck convoys, and not actual armored (or whatever) combat vehicles. Then again, the only local armory around here that even has such vehicles is the Marine Reserve unit, and they operate AAVs. So I doubt they'd have much reason to cruise down Fowler in those, or whatever.
But what the local NG unit does have (as well as the occasional thing from MacDill) I will see driving about every so often.
On another board, a poster stated that a California National Guard armory around the corner.
Also, the story ifself disproves that the 'tanks' were sent to deal with the protesters.
About ten or fifteen minutes later, two tanks (apparently the same ones) appeared again going East on Wilshire and stopped for the light there. Demonstrators immediately stepped in front of the lead tank, blocking its path, and started to chant "U.S. Out!" at the soldiers, whose heads and torsos were clearly visible and who evidently exchanged a few words with protestors.
The soldiers seemed amused and not really unfriendly. Unfortunately, a few of our protestors chanted "murderers!" at the soldiers, although in general I think we were more sophisticated than that, realizing that many soldiers are victims themselves who were recruited through propaganda, guile, and economic incentives that the very poor can find it difficult to refuse.
Now that I think about it, they probably were coming to town for a Veterans Day parade the next day (this happened on the 10th).
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."- General Sir Charles Napier
dr. what wrote:MCB Pendleton is pretty close to L.A., right?
Man--you should see how the conspiracy nuts are doing with this story.....
I'm leaning towards the Admiral and other's opinion on this--either it was really bad timing or some (soon to be very low-level) guy got into head to scare some protestors.
Hmmm...wonder when this will show up at DU?
Pendleton is basically half way between LA and San Diego. Regular traffic from Pendleton to other bases up north, like Ord or Edwards goes through the LA area every day.
Again, I think the protestors are taking a coincidence and having dellusions of grandure.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
Knife wrote:Again, I think the protestors are taking a coincidence and having dellusions of grandure.
The protesters saw a military vehicle and hoped to re-enact the famous scene in Tiananmen Square by standing in front of it (without any actual risk to life and limb of course, since these guys were just trying to get to wherever they were going).
Remember: if you can't be heroic like the real Tiananmen Square guy, you can at least go through the motions!
Last edited by Darth Wong on 2004-11-11 12:39pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
Knife wrote:
Pendleton is basically half way between LA and San Diego. Regular traffic from Pendleton to other bases up north, like Ord or Edwards goes through the LA area every day.
Again, I think the protestors are taking a coincidence and having dellusions of grandure.
Knife wrote:Again, I think the protestors are taking a coincidence and having dellusions of grandure.
The protesters saw a military vehicle and hoped to re-enact the famous scene in Tiananmen Square by standing in front of it (without any actual risk to life and limb of course, since these guys were just trying to get to wherever they were going).
Remember: if you can't be heroic like the real Tiananmen Square guy, you can at least go through the motions!
In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot. ~Mark Twain, Notebook, 1935
I ran into this quote today, looking for the correct words to Kennedy's quote I wanted for the Armitice Day thread.
Anyway, I think its about the same for the protestors. Why actually get into jepordy when you can fake it.
dr. what wrote:Still--it's a cool video, isn't it?
Not really. Only shows the LAV's at a stoplight and a bunch of morons acting like morons. That said, the bus smacking their sign was funny.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
dr. what wrote:
I really would like to know what a tank was doing strolling around in downtown L.A.
I wouldn't stroll around downtown LA in anything less than a tank.
I guess we're lucky that they didn't get carjacked.
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I saw no evidence of intimidation. I think the protestors are having dellusions of grandure. 
