America's Debts.

[frigidmagi]

'For the good of the world" as Bush would put it. Fucking hell, the US should cut down on their weapons. They go and fuck up some poor country on the other half of the planet, claiming that they had nukes, bio weapons and a whole range of non-existant stuff, while the US has the largest nuke arsenal in the world. I smell hipocrasy.

They'll probably screw up their economy just like the Soviets did...

Nevermind that if we didn't have the military we did, the world wouldn't be safe for you cry in. Yes, Iraq was a mistake, but it's not the sole use of the Military. Remember the troops in afghanistan? South Korea? Japan?

[moku]

'For the good of the world" as Bush would put it. Fucking hell, the US should cut down on their weapons. They go and fuck up some poor country on the other half of the planet, claiming that they had nukes, bio weapons and a whole range of non-existant stuff, while the US has the largest nuke arsenal in the world. I smell hipocrasy.

They'll probably screw up their economy just like the Soviets did...

Nevermind that if we didn't have the military we did, the world wouldn't be safe for you cry in. Yes, Iraq was a mistake, but it's not the sole use of the Military. Remember the troops in afghanistan? South Korea? Japan?

Okay, agreed, the world is immensly fucked.

[His Divine Shadow]

Well since the US is not gonna be able to be without Medicare and Medicaid it should be totally replaced a UHC system that provides basic medical care, by gutting the old system and tossing all that HMO crap and whatnot out of the window you'll save alot of money and in the long run you can now opt for preventative treatment that is getting people to do regular checkups(people are not as likely to do this under a private system) and catching problems early on which is mainly alot cheaper than treating something later on when it can have gotten alot worse.

then let private insurance deal with the people who can afford it and those that want to have elective surgery.

Also stop the pharmaceutical companies from charging so much for medicine, malpractice lawsuits are a big problem too, get rid of them, or make it a helluva lot harder to sue people like that.

I dunno what todo about Social Security though.

[His Divine Shadow]

Most elective surgeries are not as frivolous as titjobs or other cosmetic surgeries (which, with the exception of reconstructions, are not covered by medicare anyhow); serious procedures like hip replacements and coronary bypasses are also "elective".

Case in point: my father-in-law, who has been waiting for surgery for "elective" prostate cancer for about 5 months now (in Ontario), has seriously investigated paying out of pocket to get it done in Florida. Just this week, he had to have a second bone scan because of the possibility that the cancer had spread during his wait. He's not loaded, but he's understandably willing to dip heavily into his savings to resolve this.

That sucks, when my mother was diagnosed with breastcancer(something like a 4-6 on that scale I think it was) she got surgery within a week.

[His Divine Shadow]

On the issue of healthcare, I've read somewhere that part of the heavy burden on consumers in the US is due to the pharma companies recouping their R&D costs in the US, because they can't recoup the costs elsewhere. In other words, US consumers were subsidizing the rest of the world's(read: Canada's) drug needs.

Yeah... load of hogwash, the pharma companies make more than enough money even with price restrictions, they're just greedy bastards taking advantage of the fact the US won't put a stop to them raising prices.

[Darth Wong]

In Australia, we also have a very similar healthcare system to Canada. There exists private hospitals for that type of thing.

In Canada, it simply cannot happen without significant reform; it is presently a criminal act to charge a Canadian citizen for gov't-insured services.

Just open a clinic, bill OHIP for it, and then charge the patients for the room they're staying in. That's how the Shouldice Clinic does it.

[The Dude]

Just open a clinic, bill OHIP for it, and then charge the patients for the room they're staying in. That's how the Shouldice Clinic does it.

Even government-operated hospitals charge for non-insured stuff (like private rooms). The Shouldice clinic is a good model, though, for provision of a lot of services (and it's also used for MRI clinics, for instance). However, for areas like oncology or cardiovascular (where things like room fees are insignificant next to the massive cost of the treatments - and more specialized surgeons are required), there is essentially no way to get private providers involved without allowing them to charge above insured rates for the procedure itself. Unfortunately, these are exactly the areas where long wait times can be most detrimental.

Out of curiosity, how long were you at the clinic, and what did you (or your extended insurance) have to pay out-of-pocket?

[tharkûn]

Well since the US is not gonna be able to be without Medicare and Medicaid it should be totally replaced a UHC system that provides basic medical care, by gutting the old system and tossing all that HMO crap and whatnot out of the window you'll save alot of money and in the long run you can now opt for preventative treatment that is getting people to do regular checkups(people are not as likely to do this under a private system) and catching problems early on which is mainly alot cheaper than treating something later on when it can have gotten alot worse.

then let private insurance deal with the people who can afford it and those that want to have elective surgery.

Also stop the pharmaceutical companies from charging so much for medicine, malpractice lawsuits are a big problem too, get rid of them, or make it a helluva lot harder to sue people like that.

I dunno what todo about Social Security though.

Drug prices are not all that unreasonable, if you want to fairly value the drugs you need to look at the cost of the drugs compared to the next best alternative. Take cholesterol drugs, the next best alternative is often surgery, you could safely triple the price of the drugs and still come out ahead. Just about every pharmaceutical to hit the market lowers the cost of healthcare, makes people live longer, or both. In terms of cost effective QALYs you rarely find a better bang for the buck.

Are they making money hand over fist? Absolutely. Frankly though I view that as a GOOD thing. We should encourage investment in novel drug development as much as is reasonably possible. I'd far rather be giving gratiutious profits to somebody who makes life saving pills than the recording industry or the west coast longshoreman's union. If we are going to use government power to curb profits, drugs are the last place I'd look to cut. Even with a 20% profit, it is still obnoxiously more cost effective to be churning out new effective drugs at record rates than just about any other form of healthcare.

Yeah... load of hogwash, the pharma companies make more than enough money even with price restrictions, they're just greedy bastards taking advantage of the fact the US won't put a stop to them raising prices.

How do you fairly value a product? Is it merely the cost to produce it or the cost somebody would pay if that product didn't exist? Drugs are among the most cost effective means of purchasing QALYs known to man. Comparing the cost of drugs to other treatments is obscene, if you prevent even a few percent of surgerical interventions from being necessary you save huge. Yes greedy bastards are in pharmaceuticals, so what? They are bringing resources into the industry and we have seen an exponential growth in the cost efficiency and number of drugs availible. When measuring successful outcomes the drug companies kick the crap out of most alternatives; even if they "overprice".

Sure in a perfect world the substantial profits or lack thereof would not effect the rate of investment in drug companies or their ability to attract top talent; in the real world the drug companies put out so many cost effective pills because money can be made hand over fist.