a fight

[Seggybop]

http://www.infoceptor.com/vbulletin/sho ... genumber=4
I am arguing with some people, and I do not have all the sources I need to prove everything to their satisfaction
Do you have any suggestions as to how to quickly destroy them?

[paladin]

I can't make an suggestions. But reading the comments of the other person, I believe you will find more then enough help here to send the idiot down in flames.

[Mr Bean]

Specficis? Reading through a couple of pages of post is not my idea of fun

[Seggybop]

1. They refuse to believe that ISDs can kill everything from orbit claiming that it would nullify the need for the Death Star
2. They refuse to believe there are millions of worlds in the Empire
3. They think the borg would have little trouble taking over the Death Star if they got on board.
5. They claim the first Death Star had no shields

[Master of Ossus]

I am so tired of telling people why the DS would still be necessary if ISD's can kill everything on the surface of a planet in a matter of hours, because I find the answer self-explanatory. An ISD can only destroy the surface of a planet IF the planetary defenses are already down. An ISD is not capable of penetrating, by itself, planetary shields or outfighting most orbital defense weapons on heavily industrialized worlds. Moreover, ISD's cannot gather quickly from their other duties, and would almost certainly take casualties while assaulting a defended world. With ISD's, either a blockade or an orbital bombardment would be extremely time and resource consuming, as ISD's are generally needed for other purposes. In contrast, the DS can jump into orbit and fire before the defenders of a planet have adequate time to deploy their forces and engage it. Thus, the DS is designed to destroy heavily defended worlds in a very small amount of time and without taking casualties.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

1. They refuse to believe that ISDs can kill everything from orbit claiming that it would nullify the need for the Death Star

Planetary shields.

2. They refuse to believe there are millions of worlds in the Empire

ANH quote.

3. They think the borg would have little trouble taking over the Death Star if they got on board.

Millions of Stormies.

5. They claim the first Death Star had no shields

We're passing through the magnetic field! Switch your deflectors on double front!

The Empire doesn't concider a small one man fighter to be any threat or they would had a tighter defense.

[Mr Bean]

1. They refuse to believe that ISDs can kill everything from orbit claiming that it would nullify the need for the Death Star

The DS was created to Attack Shield Planets, After the Base Delta Zero of the Peaceful Planet of Camassi everyone and thier cousin wanted shield generators on thier planet to protect from that happing to them

[Master of Ossus]

2. The Empire has been stated by numerous sources to have more than one million worlds, most notably in the CANON ANH novelization, when Tarkin comments that the Empire has a million worlds. Other sources, including the Imperial Source Book, place the number even higher. Thus, it is likely that there are one million industrialized planets within the Empire, or planets with a sizeable population (perhaps ones that have full member status). In addition, there are approximately 11 million smaller worlds, or worlds that do not have full-member status, such as colonies.

3. Tell them that stormtrooper armor is orders of magnitude stronger than steel, that Borg drones have NEVER shown the ability to adapt against:

1. grenades
2. flames
3. plasma (particularly notable in ST:FC)
4. non-beam weapons like bullets, knives, fists, and bulkheads

Further, remind them of the number of stormtroopers on the DS, and tell them that Borg adaptation seems to be a misnomer for "optimization." The Borg have never been shown to have the ability to increase the overall power of their shields, which is insufficient to stop phaser fire. They have only been shown to optimize their shields for stopping such weapons, and even this they can only do over time. Moreover, the Borg ability to board the DS would be highly limited by the Neutronium components in the hull, which are extraordinarily dense and cannot be adequately penetrated by ST sensors without great difficulty, and certainly not with the precision required for transporters to operate reliably.

Contrary to what one of your opponents stated, Borg drones are NOT immune to weapons fire after they have adapted to it. The drone's ability to stop weapons fire using their shield MUST be limited by conservation of momentum. If you hit a Borg drone hard enough, you will invariably knock it off its feet. This is well within the capacity of SW weapons, but not within the reasonable limit of the ST weapons shown firing against the Borg. Further, weapons like grenades and toxic gas seem to ignore Borg shields entirely. Stormtroopers are not so badly handicapped. If nothing else, E-11 fire has been shown repeatedly to create shrapnel upon impact with hardened bulkheads. As a physical impactor, the Borg would have NO ability even to optimize their shields to stop such an attack, which would invariably destroy them.

4. You don't appear to have a 4.

5. DSI did have shields, they were merely not protecting areas of the DS that were strafed during the DS run. This is well confirmed by by EU sources, although they do admit that the DSI's shields were minimal.

The best response, at this point, is to simply say that a DS is unneccessary for an attack on the Borg and the AQ. A fleet of ISD's would be more than sufficient, if they were backed up by additional troop transports and reserves. Thus, there would be no reason to use a DS to attack the ST universe, and it would be an unnecessary committal of strategic resources which is inadvisable in this case because ISD's can already be classed as strategic weapons against the laughable UFP, Borg, and Dominion planetary defenses.

[Seggybop]

We're passing through the magnetic field! Switch your deflectors on double front!

The Empire doesn't concider a small one man fighter to be any threat or they would had a tighter defense.

I tried this, they claim it's the tractor beam (what the..?) They refuse to accept that it's a shield without a specific source saying it is and cite that EGVV neglects to mention them as their evidence they don't exist.

4. You don't appear to have a 4.

Hehehe... I did have one... then I killed it. And forgot to change the numbers. sry

The best response, at this point, is to simply say that a DS is unneccessary for an attack on the Borg and the AQ.

I agree, but the original argument was the Death Star alone vs. the Borg.

[Master of Ossus]

About the nanites, Mon Mothma was infected with SW nanites in Jedi Search. They are not used because it is so easy to defend against them in SW. For that matter, bioweapons like the Emperor's Plague are not used very often for the same reason: SW technology has rendered them ineffective.

This:

The Empire has nanites. They are not widely used for attacking others since they are so easily destroyed. Nano are inherently weak because their small size makes them superconductive. The Empire would exterminate their infestation as if it were nothing.

Is not an assumption that Imperial nanites are as good as Borg ones. There are physical limitations to how resilient nanites can possibly be, due to their small size. Moreover, Borg materials have proven time and again to be inferior to SW technology in the same field, some of which involves Neutronium and other heavy substances. Clearly Borg material science is inferior, and therefor their nanites must by necessity be inferior.

not only does the technology in ST have much better hologram projectors, but they also have food replicators, cloaking capability (i've only seen a starfighter in SW that's had cloaking), advanced medical technology, as well as being able to time travel. EDIT: they also could teleport, and they had Data, who was better than any droid in SW ever could be.

This is utter bullshit. SW holograms are as good as any in ST, but they draw prohibitive amounts of power. Read EGWT for examples. Further, this person has obviously never paid attention to ESB, when it is clearly stated that Imperial cloaking shields are better for large ships ("No ship that size has a cloaking device.") It is also repeatedly stated in the EU that SW ships have cloaking devices that are actually significantly more effective than ST ones because they also render a ship invisible to visible light. ST merely distorts it. Further, ST cloaks ordinarily prevent a starship from opening fire. SW cloaking devices have no such limitations. This person is clearly lying. Also mention that SW does have transporter technology (Magwit's Mystifying hoop), but that it is clearly more limited and much less useful than ST transporter technology. And ask that moron to define "better" in reference to Data. In what way is Data better than SW droids?

It is clearly stated in EGWT that stormtrooper armor is enormously resistant to bio weapons. This is confirmed by the Imperial source book, and numerous other references. Ask this person to get a brain.

This idiot obviously has no clue that Imperial weapons are orders of magnitude greater than Borg weapons. Link to Mike's technology page, or reference any of the commonly available calculations that have been done by denizens of this board.

And remember to inform him that the Borg's unawareness of the UFP demonstrates one of two things:

1. The Federation is less powerful than the Rebellion, which would have been crushed had it not killed the Emperor.

or

2. The Borg's control over their galaxy, and their sensor technology, is vasly inferior to those of the Empire.

One of these is necessary for us to explain why the Borg would have taken centuries to discover the Federation, while the Empire was already moving against the Rebels. Laugh at the person's stupidity and incompetence, and then demand concessions on all areas.

Also laugh at the moron who believes that the Vorlons possess superior technology to the Galactic Empire.

[Mr Bean]

In what way is Data better than SW droids?

Indeed Prehaps we need to Remind them of the IG Series of Robots or better yet those Vong Bots in NJO whos intials I forget

[Seggybop]

Thanks a lot everyone, the enemy has surrendered. They say they are too tired to continue, but it is clear that they now realize there is no way they can win.

Also laugh at the moron who believes that the Vorlons possess superior technology to the Galactic Empire.

Everyone mocks Necro. To say very clearly what he is, think of MKSheppard crossed with chewtoy Akira + idiocy boost x1000000

Thanks again for the help.

[Master of Ossus]

Thanks a lot everyone, the enemy has surrendered. They say they are too tired to continue, but it is clear that they now realize there is no way they can win.

Also laugh at the moron who believes that the Vorlons possess superior technology to the Galactic Empire.

Everyone mocks Necro. To say very clearly what he is, think of MKSheppard crossed with chewtoy Akira + idiocy boost x1000000

Thanks again for the help.

My pleasure. I'm happy to assist anyone in this manner, but I will not go to another site to post there. You will have to re-type my statements, or copy and paste them yourself. Sorry, but I don't have time to start new accounts elsewhere.

[Master of Ossus]

Congratulations on your victory. The only minor critique I had for the laughable "private contractors" bit is that I would have reminded Firefly that the DSII was built secretly.

This is Master of Ossus, saying "Good fight, good night."

[Seggybop]

I didn't mean you had to go there to insult him personally, only that he a fool of the highest degree. People beat him up enough right now as it is. Although maybe I could lure him here. That would have extremely high humor value, what do you think?

[Guest]

="Master of Ossus"]2. The Empire has been stated by numerous sources to have more than one million worlds, most notably in the CANON ANH novelization, when Tarkin comments that the Empire has a million worlds. Other sources, including the Imperial Source Book, place the number even higher. Thus, it is likely that there are one million industrialized planets within the Empire, or planets with a sizeable population (perhaps ones that have full member status). In addition, there are approximately 11 million smaller worlds, or worlds that do not have full-member status, such as colonies.

I think this is a good explanation. It makes sense that there will be colonies that have not yet attained member status. Just picture the British Empire at its height. It had a lot of colonies and only a few "member" provinces.