Both are incidents of time travel being predestined.
Furthermore the Relativity is a red herring. It is NOT part of the debate. You can not use the future of Trek as proof that they will always defeat anyone you pit against them. It is absurd to use that logic.
The Federation will be able to defeat any Empire invasion.
Moderator: Vympel
"If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If neither is on your side, pound on the table."
"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
How was the Whale Probe incident predestined? What, the Kirk took the last two whales out of the ocean and therefore the probe was sent into the future? The reason why the whales went extinct was becaue of man, not because of Kirk's inteference.Alyeska wrote:Both are incidents of time travel being predestined.
Except that the Relativity has temporal shielding, meaning that the Empire taking over the timeline (which obviously does not include the Empire) would mean that it wouldn't be affected by the Empire. What is wrong with that kind of reasoning?Furthermore the Relativity is a red herring. It is NOT part of the debate. You can not use the future of Trek as proof that they will always defeat anyone you pit against them. It is absurd to use that logic.
Brian
Predestined as in cause and effect. It was going to happen and was going to happen again.brianeyci wrote:predestined? What, the Kirk took the last two whales out of the ocean and therefore the probe was sent into the future? The reason why the whales went extinct was becaue of man, not because of Kirk's inteference.
Which is the biggest fucking red herring in existance. This is the fucking 24th century being debated here. Your fucking logic can call in EVERY Fed ship using this shielding which doesn't fucking happen.Except that the Relativity has temporal shielding, meaning that the Empire taking over the timeline (which obviously does not include the Empire) would mean that it wouldn't be affected by the Empire. What is wrong with that kind of reasoning?
Brian
"If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If neither is on your side, pound on the table."
"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
Further explaination why I think the Relativity is pertinent to the debate :
It is of course stupid to use the future to say something about the past. Because this is what happens.
A. Something happens in the past
B. Therefore the future is changed
However, what is the future did not change, for example the thing in the future had temporal shielding? Then it would still exist. Therefore it is okay to talk about the future as long as it remains unchanged by the past, possible through temporal shielding.
I do not see the flaw in this type of argument.
Brian
It is of course stupid to use the future to say something about the past. Because this is what happens.
A. Something happens in the past
B. Therefore the future is changed
However, what is the future did not change, for example the thing in the future had temporal shielding? Then it would still exist. Therefore it is okay to talk about the future as long as it remains unchanged by the past, possible through temporal shielding.
I do not see the flaw in this type of argument.
Brian
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Get it through your thick fucking skull. This debate is about the 24th century Federation and the Empire. NO ONE ELSE GETS A FUCKING INVITE YOU DIPSHIT.brianeyci wrote:Further explaination why I think the Relativity is pertinent to the debate :
It is of course stupid to use the future to say something about the past. Because this is what happens.
A. Something happens in the past
B. Therefore the future is changed
However, what is the future did not change, for example the thing in the future had temporal shielding? Then it would still exist. Therefore it is okay to talk about the future as long as it remains unchanged by the past, possible through temporal shielding.
I do not see the flaw in this type of argument.
Brian
"If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If neither is on your side, pound on the table."
"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
I don't understand. Kirk goes back in time to get the whales. If he didn't go back in time to get the whales, the probe would have annihilated Earth. Therefore, this is an example of a change in the timeline, is it not?Alyeska wrote:Predestined as in cause and effect. It was going to happen and was going to happen again.
I don't understand what you mean by predestined. What is an example of non-predestined time travel then?
Sigh. And what is wrong with calling in every Fed ship using temporal shielding? Agreed we are talking about the 24th Century Feds, but look at my above post about the reasons why I disagree with you.Which is the biggest fucking red herring in existance. This is the fucking 24th century being debated here. Your fucking logic can call in EVERY Fed ship using this shielding which doesn't fucking happen.
Brian
So the Relativity is a Red Herring. Point conceded.I am SURE many people will skip a lot of what I write so I am putting my single most important point first(copy and pasted from bellow):
Not using all of an enemies assets in a conflict is the ultimate copout. The Federation has turned to time travel to save their asses repeatedly in many cannon sources-hell, half the movies alone. If the Empire fights an enemy who turns to time travel as an ultimate last resort(as the Federation does…. REPETADLY) how can you NOT include their most effective weapon? You just do not want to accept that the federation has one OVERWHELMING advantage out of some bizarre logic I can not fathom. The Federation has time travel, it is an INTEGRAL part of the defence of the federation over its history-unless we are unaware of it the Federation seems to use time travel more then any other race in the Alpha quadrant(or much of the galaxy). HELL the future federation is not the federation, it is some weird time traveling variant thereof….. it is obvious that the federations emphasis on time travel only grows. Time travel is an INTEGRAL part of the federation. Accept it and move on.
“And how do you address the other problem that they have been shown to be stuck to a couple of hundered years when travelling in time?
Add to this the fact they arent winning they're moving to a parallell universe (running away) and they've still lost no matter what it is they do.hey've still lost no matter what it is they do.”
The Federation has traveled to parallel universes REPETADLY, the tech is out there. They save their own reality then go save the other.
“The problem is Lach that even if they did go back in time they still cannot stop the coming invasion.
They have no idea where the SW galaxy is, and if they did it could be so far away that their ships would have no hope of reaching it.”
Who says they need to stop it? That is one solution, they have time to get the tech to go and stop it, but I would think they’d rather stay in their own galaxy and simply use the time for preparation to fight em.
“The actual problem is that time travel never solves the actual problem for anyone but the person who travels through time. Because every incident of time travel creates a new divergent timeline, any defeat that the Federation reverses through time travel only creates a victorious timeline at best. You can never really go back to the original timeline in which you got defeated because of the "Parallels" effect.”
See above, they have traveled to parallel realities before.
”Furthermore, there's no guarantee that you can actually succeed in your effort by going back in time. The Empire might smack down your time travellers. That means that your probably just creating a winning and losing parallel timelines”
The first step is not fighting, the hundredth leap is not fighting. The first trip is to set up redundancy so you can go back if you fail. Then you set up more redundancy. Then you set up MORE redundancy. Then you set up MORE etc-you set up A LOT of redundancy. You do not fight for a LONG time. The Federation needs A LOT of time to prepare first, they spend the time they need to find critical weaknesses in every imperial technology or make better tech themselves. The fate of your species, if your entire GALAXY is on the line-if you are using time travel it is your last resort-you are desperate, you will take the time to do it right.
“Come to think of it, it's entirely possible that the Empire does know how to travel through time (if we assume that cross-universe laws of physics are the same, so time travel is possible in Star Wars using the same methods), but they've already recognized the futility of such activities, so they don't bother.”
We can ONLY use cannon sources, this is a huge disadvantage for the federation BUT we can not turn it off for the empire when it becomes inconvenient. We have NO evidence the empire has such technology. MORE SO they are attacking a FAR inferior enemy, they have no reason to use time travel. They have no reason to set up redundancy because any sane civilization will only use it as a last resort. They would not even know the Federation is using time travel, how could they? Possibly a dozen, hundreds of human generations of work would be done in preparation via time traveling to fight the time travel but for the empire… they would never know.
“A nice little theory I had a while back. The Federation has the ability to travel within one time line. They send people and assets back in time as far as they can and their mission is to conduct research. These people are ordered to make contact at the point of the next time travel point and go back to research with their new technology and knowledge. Repeat a couple thousand times and now you've got a very advanced technology base.”
If I was unclear this was one of the solutions I presented. I think this is the most likely course of action the federation would take.
“Of course something to think about. Mentioning time travel is an effective concession to the traditional aspect of the debate. Thats partly why WMDs (time travel counts) are left out of the debate. WMD capabilities do not necessarily represent the proper debate of strategic and tactical capabilities.”
It is no question the empire wins a normal war. HOWERVER the empire does not have the WMDs, only the federation does. When we bombed Hiroshima we did not have to worry they would nuke us back-there is no downside for the federation, it is NOT mutually insured destruction. WMD’s are a weapon like any other, they are as strategic and tactical as anything else and you better bet your rump the federation WOULD use time travel. “If they don’t” is as effective as saying “If they don’t fight” because it is almost a guarantee they would use it. Any debate not involving the Federations time traveling ability is incredibly incomplete.
“If the Federation begins dimension hopping, it'll end up in dimensions where the Empire isn't invading. Thus negating its usefulness.”
They have repeatedly, mostly by accident gone to other parallel universes in EVERY star trek series. After they set up a “colony” which is continually traveling to itself to pass back the work, I would think one of the FIRST technologies they would start working on would be to find out how to travel between universes on command. This colony has ALL the best resources/minds in the federation, they can snatch WHATEVER they need from previous times and more importantly WHOEVER they need. They can get all of the federations best scientists there. HELL if they really want to do some fancy time traveling(and give everyone a headache) they can get MULTIPLE of the same great scientists working. Given infinite time and infinite resources…. How can they fail? Now some may complain that is unfair because they are “given” them…. They are NOT given anything. Everything they take and use, they do through their OWN abilities.
On a side note I’d be willing to bet with Picard and Janeway both as admirals they ALREADY have a “chrono colony” tucked away somewhere, just in case. Why wouldn’t they?
“*CoughGRIDFIREcough*
Their are universes out there that could make the Empire shit itself at the mear mention of their names, as far as power ratio goes, you don't think twenty five thousand year old plus civilisation that spans an entire Galaxy have such weaponry?
And if you want to make memeber jokes what about Gene's other work a little Universe called Andromida? Multi-Galatic, world destroying with a faster FTL system than the Empire has(With no were near the precision however) and decently matched ships”
Yes there are universes out there more extreme then star wars. There are also a lot which are a lot smaller. All the star wars books seem to have a thing for being “big”. ANYWAY this has nothing to do with the logic of my facts(I want to say arguments but it isn’t an argument, everything I have said is indisputably true).
“As pointed out elsewhere, Barrier is not a shell, simply go up and "viola" your going around it, not to mention for the sake of the debate you don't throw in something such as a planet pops into existance and the entire SW fleet runs into it, if your going to have a VS you have to put the fighters in the ring”
We assume they get around it, so it is not an issue… a bunch of non cannon sources(from different authors, some of the more prestigious star trek ones) all explain it IS infact a shell… the Q series comes to mind. It does not matter, somehow they get around without any problems.
“A few thousand ships more does not help much when one is STILL facing ships that can take the concerated attack of the entire Federation anywhere from several minutes to several months(Depending on which shield calcuation you go with)
And whos guns as mentioned can take down a Federation ship with each shot(Or at the very least heavly damage it)”
When you have all the time and all the resources you need to win, the ships hardly matter. All you have to do is have enough ships survive to set up the redundancy system.
“Wrong, Time Travel because of the Parelles problem is a cop out rather than a valid tatic, the Lastest SWOTW(Super Weapon of the Week) mearly demstorates the lack of creative thinking on writers parts rather than the complete lack of thinking involved in time traval”
The Federation has repetadly gone to parallel universes, mostly by accident but sometimes on purpose(they did in DS9). They have the time to figure it out.
“Because of the Parrell universe problem by which your not "fixing" the problem via time traval just creating another Parrell were in one you went off to fix the problem”
See above, they will be able to go between universes on demand.
“Problem, the Federation communication system is just as limited as its subspace speed even if one assumes that the entire federation fleet scatters to the four winds, you still have the problem of the Empire ability to respond and reinforce weeks before the Federation ships get there, time traval or no”
You just need ONE captain who survives to have the motivation to set up a chrono colony….. who says the current federation fleet defeats the enemy? It could be they go back to right before the empire comes or earlier and heavily bolster the fleet, there are also MANY other solutions(I do not need to list them, I’m sure you can figure it out). NO matter HOW MANY times they fail, they can always try again-that is the good part of time travel.
“How? Go to the SW Universe?
Assuming Wormhole rather than big long trip you still face the problem of trying to randomly guess exactly what period to jump to not face ships that can destroy you on sight”
I meant on the enemy fleet. You can send ALL your forces to subdue one small enemy ship to get the information you need. If you loose in the process, it does not matter-you get to try again. Repeat trying till you have all the info you need. Consider the fact that time travel gives the federation the ability to get !ANY! technology they want/need. They just need time to get it…. Time they have.
“Explain how time traval helps you steal technology(Agian unless you mean gooing thousands of years back in time and waiting for the Empire to grow up... riight)”
One possibility, why not? As the chrono colony concept… I should have been more specific in my original post. I thought it obvious. ONE captain goes back in time and establishes a colony. His first priority is to set up other systems to go back and set up MORE if that colony should fail. The people on that colony send their work to their past selves to continue it… they get better phasers, they send THAT work back to themselves and get better phasers or WHATEVER technology they want. It would be more effective to steal the technology, and they could, but they would likely develop it themselves, I think(no real proof which rout they take).
“But not the resources and not the personnel”
Travel back, get the resources, get the personnel, bring em where you want.
“Wrong you time traval, new reality, you time traval back, woops... new reality, the orgional one is just as screwed as when you left it
Traval to a diffrent reality? The more you traval the more Parrells you create and the less problems you solve”
You can TRAVEL to another universe in the SAME TIME without making a new one. Almost every series has done this. There is no evidence going between universes makes new ones, you simply go between them. TIME TRAVEL makes new realities. Traveling between realities does not.
“IN summination using time traval is the same as using Q, its a cop-out, its never worked before(Name one time Q saved the Federation from utter destruction, Name one time time Traval saved the Federation from utter destruction)”
According to the Q series which unfortunately IS NOT cannon “that” Q is bound to protect Earth….. forever. ANYWAY who mentioned Q? How is it a cop out? It seems to me that the federation would use it. That is like saying the empire would magically NOT use their super star destroyers because it is “unfair”. OF COURSE they would use them, any argument without all motivations is incomplete.
OH and time travel has saved the federation repeatedly….. my two favorite examples is Janeway ##### slapping the Borg and a certain little whale problem with Kirk.
“Side note, every time you time traval, you pollute the time stream, its been said multiple times in ST and each time they say it along with the note that more time traval= more fucking things up=baad”
When the alternative is the enslavement or destruction of your entire galaxy…… they would certainly take the risk, As shown before they have done it for MUCH less.
“First of all, I agree that time travel is the ultimate cop-out, and that it really isn't applicable in the debate of whether the Empire would win or lose.”
Read above. Not using all of an enemies assets in a conflict is the ultimate copout. The federation has turned to time tavel to save their asses repeatedly in many cannon sources. If the Empire fights an enemy who turns to time travel as an ultimate last resort(as the Federation does) how can you NOT include their most effective weapon? You just do not want to accept that the federation has one OVERWHELMING advantage. The Federation has time travel, it is an INTEGRAL part of the defence of the federation over its history. HELL the future federation is not the federation, it is some weird time traveling variant thereof….. it is obvious that the federations emphasis on time travel only grows. Time travel is an INTEGRAL part of the federation. Accept it and move on.
“However, that doesn't mean we can't talk about time travel at all in the sense of what would happen after the Empire won. Time travel would only make sense if the time traveller's future was in danger.”
Once again I had an ambiguity and I am sorry. The Empire would UNDENIABLY trounce the federation. The time traveling would only happen after a loss, but before complete annihilation(which would take many, many years to track them all down). Time travelers in the federation have done time traveling when their future is NOT in danger, it would be the “logical” thing to do but Federation personnel have shown an AMAZING level of self sacrifice. Federation time travelers have worked their whole lives, only to undo their existence by preventing some catastrophy. This has happened repeatedly in TNG and Voyager…. And more sparsely elsewhere. I do not think we can doubt the devotion of Federation time travelers to save the Federation even as the cost of their own existences… they’ve done it before, a lot. This willingness can not reasonably be called into question.
“the justification for the USS Relativity not travelling back in time to kill the Borg is that why would they need to? The Borg were defeated. They let hundreds of millions of people die because, frankly, those lives didn't effect the future of the Federation. The only possible thing that could would be a temporal incursion from the future, such as a Temporal Cold War, or time travel such as Scotty giving the formula for transparent aluminum in the past. So the USS Relativity would go back and fix time travel glitches, and protect against other time travelling goons. Not intefere with the timeline.”
The FUTURE federation would not help. The CURRENT federation would set up a series of self sustaining time traveling colonies/systems(as I’ve started calling them, chrono colonies) one all hell has broken loose. I do not think the USS relativity would stop the CURRENT Federation from using time travel to save itself because if it did NOT do so, the future federation would not exist…..
“However an invasion by the Empire would destroy the Federation. It would destroy the entire galaxy. The "Temporal Prime Directive" could be more than just a normal Prime Directive. It could be an agreement by the various time-travelling races not to interfere with the timeline, for example the Krenim walking on Fed history. Suffice it to say that once the Empire took over the galaxy, this treaty would go out the window. An invasion by the Empire would threaten the Federation unlike any other threat because -- they would lose. They didn't lose the other conflicts. If they lost, then the USS Relativity could never be created, and all their families and loved ones would cease to exist or exist under the Imperial heel. This would be the equivalent of the Borg assimilating the Earth in ST:FC. The Dominion, the Borg and all else are nothing compared to Empire. The Empire would destroy the Federation. Every time the Federation (or Earth) is defeated, time travel is used. Not in danger of being defeated. Defeated.
Brian”
Thank you for saving me the time to write that heh, I completely agree… I need to read whole posts and not respond to them lime by line(which USUALLY works but did not in this case). EXCEPT the last point…. I disagree with. The first time traveling is NOT to fight, MUCH time (relative to the series of time travelers) goes by before that happens, the first step is to set up chrono colonies…. It is obvious you are going to have A LOT of trial and error to defeat such an overwhelming foe. If you are desperate enough to use time travel, you’d do it right and set up overlapping redundancies.
“How does the Federation know that Imperial invasion and occupation is not part of the natural timeline? How do they know that it is not SUPPOSED to happen therefore changing time is violating the Prim Directive no? Is there some rule that states just because the Federation does not like the over all outcome they can ignore the Directive.”
They would stop caring about the time line in face of such an overwhelming threat… as stated above, repetedly, they have ignored the time line to save their own asses on MANY occasions.
“Time travel is a pure and simple cop out that would have absolutely no bearing on the outcome anyway since as soon as they go back in time they just crafted an alternate reality.”
See above, one of the techs you work on is going between universes dependably.
“All of this means 24th century Feds can't do jack. If they are loosing the war and attempt to use time travel they will fail because they were destined to loose the war.”
What? The “paradox” of any time traveler stops himself from changing things because it was changed is solved by the fact that all time travel makes another universe….. and they can travel between universes, just not on demand, at the moment.
“The biggest problem is that the Empire, once they captured an intact warp drive, would figure out that warp drives allow time travel. Then we would have Empire agents going back in time, etc. and so on.”
The first incident of federation time travel was an accident and that took hundreds of years(Kirks jumping around a “black star”) before it happened. The Federation did not discover time travel on purpose, but they figured out how to do it dependably. Furthermore they may get the technology but it would take some time to fully understand it. Warping space is a fundamentally different technology which is NOTHING like anything the empire has ever encountered. The Empire would have no reason to use time travel and likely an aversion to is like any sane civilization…. The federation would beat them BEFORE the fighting started to A. Save lots of lives and B. Prevent this from happening.
“Best to leave time travel alone I think.”
We cannot because the federation will not. They use it as a last resort repeatedly, and often use it even when it is not a last resort(see Voyager for most of those).
“Both are incidents of time travel being predestined.”
No they are not. The fundamental paradox of time traveling and predestination is negated by the fact it is a different universe. You never travel back in time in your own universe(well the federation of the 24’th cant… the 29’th can but they are not involved).
“Furthermore the Relativity is a red herring. It is NOT part of the debate. You can not use the future of Trek as proof that they will always defeat anyone you pit against them. It is absurd to use that logic.”
The 24’th Federation kicks their asses, not the 29’th.
“I don't understand. Kirk goes back in time to get the whales. If he didn't go back in time to get the whales, the probe would have annihilated Earth. Therefore, this is an example of a change in the timeline, is it not?”
When you time travel you make another reality(with the method the 24’th Federation uses). Kirk made a new reality and saved that one. His original one got boned. Our Federation VS Empire people don’t have to worry about this though, The Fed’s will obviously develop parallel universe traveling abilities.
Please do not bring up the 29’th century……
Not using all of an enemies assets in a conflict is the ultimate copout. The Federation has turned to time travel to save their asses repeatedly in many cannon sources-hell, half the movies alone. If the Empire fights an enemy who turns to time travel as an ultimate last resort(as the Federation does…. REPETADLY) how can you NOT include their most effective weapon? You just do not want to accept that the federation has one OVERWHELMING advantage out of some bizarre logic I can not fathom. The Federation has time travel, it is an INTEGRAL part of the defence of the federation over its history-unless we are unaware of it the Federation seems to use time travel more then any other race in the Alpha quadrant(or much of the galaxy). HELL the future federation is not the federation, it is some weird time traveling variant thereof….. it is obvious that the federations emphasis on time travel only grows. Time travel is an INTEGRAL part of the federation. Accept it and move on.
“And how do you address the other problem that they have been shown to be stuck to a couple of hundered years when travelling in time?
Add to this the fact they arent winning they're moving to a parallell universe (running away) and they've still lost no matter what it is they do.hey've still lost no matter what it is they do.”
The Federation has traveled to parallel universes REPETADLY, the tech is out there. They save their own reality then go save the other.
“The problem is Lach that even if they did go back in time they still cannot stop the coming invasion.
They have no idea where the SW galaxy is, and if they did it could be so far away that their ships would have no hope of reaching it.”
Who says they need to stop it? That is one solution, they have time to get the tech to go and stop it, but I would think they’d rather stay in their own galaxy and simply use the time for preparation to fight em.
“The actual problem is that time travel never solves the actual problem for anyone but the person who travels through time. Because every incident of time travel creates a new divergent timeline, any defeat that the Federation reverses through time travel only creates a victorious timeline at best. You can never really go back to the original timeline in which you got defeated because of the "Parallels" effect.”
See above, they have traveled to parallel realities before.
”Furthermore, there's no guarantee that you can actually succeed in your effort by going back in time. The Empire might smack down your time travellers. That means that your probably just creating a winning and losing parallel timelines”
The first step is not fighting, the hundredth leap is not fighting. The first trip is to set up redundancy so you can go back if you fail. Then you set up more redundancy. Then you set up MORE redundancy. Then you set up MORE etc-you set up A LOT of redundancy. You do not fight for a LONG time. The Federation needs A LOT of time to prepare first, they spend the time they need to find critical weaknesses in every imperial technology or make better tech themselves. The fate of your species, if your entire GALAXY is on the line-if you are using time travel it is your last resort-you are desperate, you will take the time to do it right.
“Come to think of it, it's entirely possible that the Empire does know how to travel through time (if we assume that cross-universe laws of physics are the same, so time travel is possible in Star Wars using the same methods), but they've already recognized the futility of such activities, so they don't bother.”
We can ONLY use cannon sources, this is a huge disadvantage for the federation BUT we can not turn it off for the empire when it becomes inconvenient. We have NO evidence the empire has such technology. MORE SO they are attacking a FAR inferior enemy, they have no reason to use time travel. They have no reason to set up redundancy because any sane civilization will only use it as a last resort. They would not even know the Federation is using time travel, how could they? Possibly a dozen, hundreds of human generations of work would be done in preparation via time traveling to fight the time travel but for the empire… they would never know.
“A nice little theory I had a while back. The Federation has the ability to travel within one time line. They send people and assets back in time as far as they can and their mission is to conduct research. These people are ordered to make contact at the point of the next time travel point and go back to research with their new technology and knowledge. Repeat a couple thousand times and now you've got a very advanced technology base.”
If I was unclear this was one of the solutions I presented. I think this is the most likely course of action the federation would take.
“Of course something to think about. Mentioning time travel is an effective concession to the traditional aspect of the debate. Thats partly why WMDs (time travel counts) are left out of the debate. WMD capabilities do not necessarily represent the proper debate of strategic and tactical capabilities.”
It is no question the empire wins a normal war. HOWERVER the empire does not have the WMDs, only the federation does. When we bombed Hiroshima we did not have to worry they would nuke us back-there is no downside for the federation, it is NOT mutually insured destruction. WMD’s are a weapon like any other, they are as strategic and tactical as anything else and you better bet your rump the federation WOULD use time travel. “If they don’t” is as effective as saying “If they don’t fight” because it is almost a guarantee they would use it. Any debate not involving the Federations time traveling ability is incredibly incomplete.
“If the Federation begins dimension hopping, it'll end up in dimensions where the Empire isn't invading. Thus negating its usefulness.”
They have repeatedly, mostly by accident gone to other parallel universes in EVERY star trek series. After they set up a “colony” which is continually traveling to itself to pass back the work, I would think one of the FIRST technologies they would start working on would be to find out how to travel between universes on command. This colony has ALL the best resources/minds in the federation, they can snatch WHATEVER they need from previous times and more importantly WHOEVER they need. They can get all of the federations best scientists there. HELL if they really want to do some fancy time traveling(and give everyone a headache) they can get MULTIPLE of the same great scientists working. Given infinite time and infinite resources…. How can they fail? Now some may complain that is unfair because they are “given” them…. They are NOT given anything. Everything they take and use, they do through their OWN abilities.
On a side note I’d be willing to bet with Picard and Janeway both as admirals they ALREADY have a “chrono colony” tucked away somewhere, just in case. Why wouldn’t they?
“*CoughGRIDFIREcough*
Their are universes out there that could make the Empire shit itself at the mear mention of their names, as far as power ratio goes, you don't think twenty five thousand year old plus civilisation that spans an entire Galaxy have such weaponry?
And if you want to make memeber jokes what about Gene's other work a little Universe called Andromida? Multi-Galatic, world destroying with a faster FTL system than the Empire has(With no were near the precision however) and decently matched ships”
Yes there are universes out there more extreme then star wars. There are also a lot which are a lot smaller. All the star wars books seem to have a thing for being “big”. ANYWAY this has nothing to do with the logic of my facts(I want to say arguments but it isn’t an argument, everything I have said is indisputably true).
“As pointed out elsewhere, Barrier is not a shell, simply go up and "viola" your going around it, not to mention for the sake of the debate you don't throw in something such as a planet pops into existance and the entire SW fleet runs into it, if your going to have a VS you have to put the fighters in the ring”
We assume they get around it, so it is not an issue… a bunch of non cannon sources(from different authors, some of the more prestigious star trek ones) all explain it IS infact a shell… the Q series comes to mind. It does not matter, somehow they get around without any problems.
“A few thousand ships more does not help much when one is STILL facing ships that can take the concerated attack of the entire Federation anywhere from several minutes to several months(Depending on which shield calcuation you go with)
And whos guns as mentioned can take down a Federation ship with each shot(Or at the very least heavly damage it)”
When you have all the time and all the resources you need to win, the ships hardly matter. All you have to do is have enough ships survive to set up the redundancy system.
“Wrong, Time Travel because of the Parelles problem is a cop out rather than a valid tatic, the Lastest SWOTW(Super Weapon of the Week) mearly demstorates the lack of creative thinking on writers parts rather than the complete lack of thinking involved in time traval”
The Federation has repetadly gone to parallel universes, mostly by accident but sometimes on purpose(they did in DS9). They have the time to figure it out.
“Because of the Parrell universe problem by which your not "fixing" the problem via time traval just creating another Parrell were in one you went off to fix the problem”
See above, they will be able to go between universes on demand.
“Problem, the Federation communication system is just as limited as its subspace speed even if one assumes that the entire federation fleet scatters to the four winds, you still have the problem of the Empire ability to respond and reinforce weeks before the Federation ships get there, time traval or no”
You just need ONE captain who survives to have the motivation to set up a chrono colony….. who says the current federation fleet defeats the enemy? It could be they go back to right before the empire comes or earlier and heavily bolster the fleet, there are also MANY other solutions(I do not need to list them, I’m sure you can figure it out). NO matter HOW MANY times they fail, they can always try again-that is the good part of time travel.
“How? Go to the SW Universe?
Assuming Wormhole rather than big long trip you still face the problem of trying to randomly guess exactly what period to jump to not face ships that can destroy you on sight”
I meant on the enemy fleet. You can send ALL your forces to subdue one small enemy ship to get the information you need. If you loose in the process, it does not matter-you get to try again. Repeat trying till you have all the info you need. Consider the fact that time travel gives the federation the ability to get !ANY! technology they want/need. They just need time to get it…. Time they have.
“Explain how time traval helps you steal technology(Agian unless you mean gooing thousands of years back in time and waiting for the Empire to grow up... riight)”
One possibility, why not? As the chrono colony concept… I should have been more specific in my original post. I thought it obvious. ONE captain goes back in time and establishes a colony. His first priority is to set up other systems to go back and set up MORE if that colony should fail. The people on that colony send their work to their past selves to continue it… they get better phasers, they send THAT work back to themselves and get better phasers or WHATEVER technology they want. It would be more effective to steal the technology, and they could, but they would likely develop it themselves, I think(no real proof which rout they take).
“But not the resources and not the personnel”
Travel back, get the resources, get the personnel, bring em where you want.
“Wrong you time traval, new reality, you time traval back, woops... new reality, the orgional one is just as screwed as when you left it
Traval to a diffrent reality? The more you traval the more Parrells you create and the less problems you solve”
You can TRAVEL to another universe in the SAME TIME without making a new one. Almost every series has done this. There is no evidence going between universes makes new ones, you simply go between them. TIME TRAVEL makes new realities. Traveling between realities does not.
“IN summination using time traval is the same as using Q, its a cop-out, its never worked before(Name one time Q saved the Federation from utter destruction, Name one time time Traval saved the Federation from utter destruction)”
According to the Q series which unfortunately IS NOT cannon “that” Q is bound to protect Earth….. forever. ANYWAY who mentioned Q? How is it a cop out? It seems to me that the federation would use it. That is like saying the empire would magically NOT use their super star destroyers because it is “unfair”. OF COURSE they would use them, any argument without all motivations is incomplete.
OH and time travel has saved the federation repeatedly….. my two favorite examples is Janeway ##### slapping the Borg and a certain little whale problem with Kirk.
“Side note, every time you time traval, you pollute the time stream, its been said multiple times in ST and each time they say it along with the note that more time traval= more fucking things up=baad”
When the alternative is the enslavement or destruction of your entire galaxy…… they would certainly take the risk, As shown before they have done it for MUCH less.
“First of all, I agree that time travel is the ultimate cop-out, and that it really isn't applicable in the debate of whether the Empire would win or lose.”
Read above. Not using all of an enemies assets in a conflict is the ultimate copout. The federation has turned to time tavel to save their asses repeatedly in many cannon sources. If the Empire fights an enemy who turns to time travel as an ultimate last resort(as the Federation does) how can you NOT include their most effective weapon? You just do not want to accept that the federation has one OVERWHELMING advantage. The Federation has time travel, it is an INTEGRAL part of the defence of the federation over its history. HELL the future federation is not the federation, it is some weird time traveling variant thereof….. it is obvious that the federations emphasis on time travel only grows. Time travel is an INTEGRAL part of the federation. Accept it and move on.
“However, that doesn't mean we can't talk about time travel at all in the sense of what would happen after the Empire won. Time travel would only make sense if the time traveller's future was in danger.”
Once again I had an ambiguity and I am sorry. The Empire would UNDENIABLY trounce the federation. The time traveling would only happen after a loss, but before complete annihilation(which would take many, many years to track them all down). Time travelers in the federation have done time traveling when their future is NOT in danger, it would be the “logical” thing to do but Federation personnel have shown an AMAZING level of self sacrifice. Federation time travelers have worked their whole lives, only to undo their existence by preventing some catastrophy. This has happened repeatedly in TNG and Voyager…. And more sparsely elsewhere. I do not think we can doubt the devotion of Federation time travelers to save the Federation even as the cost of their own existences… they’ve done it before, a lot. This willingness can not reasonably be called into question.
“the justification for the USS Relativity not travelling back in time to kill the Borg is that why would they need to? The Borg were defeated. They let hundreds of millions of people die because, frankly, those lives didn't effect the future of the Federation. The only possible thing that could would be a temporal incursion from the future, such as a Temporal Cold War, or time travel such as Scotty giving the formula for transparent aluminum in the past. So the USS Relativity would go back and fix time travel glitches, and protect against other time travelling goons. Not intefere with the timeline.”
The FUTURE federation would not help. The CURRENT federation would set up a series of self sustaining time traveling colonies/systems(as I’ve started calling them, chrono colonies) one all hell has broken loose. I do not think the USS relativity would stop the CURRENT Federation from using time travel to save itself because if it did NOT do so, the future federation would not exist…..
“However an invasion by the Empire would destroy the Federation. It would destroy the entire galaxy. The "Temporal Prime Directive" could be more than just a normal Prime Directive. It could be an agreement by the various time-travelling races not to interfere with the timeline, for example the Krenim walking on Fed history. Suffice it to say that once the Empire took over the galaxy, this treaty would go out the window. An invasion by the Empire would threaten the Federation unlike any other threat because -- they would lose. They didn't lose the other conflicts. If they lost, then the USS Relativity could never be created, and all their families and loved ones would cease to exist or exist under the Imperial heel. This would be the equivalent of the Borg assimilating the Earth in ST:FC. The Dominion, the Borg and all else are nothing compared to Empire. The Empire would destroy the Federation. Every time the Federation (or Earth) is defeated, time travel is used. Not in danger of being defeated. Defeated.
Brian”
Thank you for saving me the time to write that heh, I completely agree… I need to read whole posts and not respond to them lime by line(which USUALLY works but did not in this case). EXCEPT the last point…. I disagree with. The first time traveling is NOT to fight, MUCH time (relative to the series of time travelers) goes by before that happens, the first step is to set up chrono colonies…. It is obvious you are going to have A LOT of trial and error to defeat such an overwhelming foe. If you are desperate enough to use time travel, you’d do it right and set up overlapping redundancies.
“How does the Federation know that Imperial invasion and occupation is not part of the natural timeline? How do they know that it is not SUPPOSED to happen therefore changing time is violating the Prim Directive no? Is there some rule that states just because the Federation does not like the over all outcome they can ignore the Directive.”
They would stop caring about the time line in face of such an overwhelming threat… as stated above, repetedly, they have ignored the time line to save their own asses on MANY occasions.
“Time travel is a pure and simple cop out that would have absolutely no bearing on the outcome anyway since as soon as they go back in time they just crafted an alternate reality.”
See above, one of the techs you work on is going between universes dependably.
“All of this means 24th century Feds can't do jack. If they are loosing the war and attempt to use time travel they will fail because they were destined to loose the war.”
What? The “paradox” of any time traveler stops himself from changing things because it was changed is solved by the fact that all time travel makes another universe….. and they can travel between universes, just not on demand, at the moment.
“The biggest problem is that the Empire, once they captured an intact warp drive, would figure out that warp drives allow time travel. Then we would have Empire agents going back in time, etc. and so on.”
The first incident of federation time travel was an accident and that took hundreds of years(Kirks jumping around a “black star”) before it happened. The Federation did not discover time travel on purpose, but they figured out how to do it dependably. Furthermore they may get the technology but it would take some time to fully understand it. Warping space is a fundamentally different technology which is NOTHING like anything the empire has ever encountered. The Empire would have no reason to use time travel and likely an aversion to is like any sane civilization…. The federation would beat them BEFORE the fighting started to A. Save lots of lives and B. Prevent this from happening.
“Best to leave time travel alone I think.”
We cannot because the federation will not. They use it as a last resort repeatedly, and often use it even when it is not a last resort(see Voyager for most of those).
“Both are incidents of time travel being predestined.”
No they are not. The fundamental paradox of time traveling and predestination is negated by the fact it is a different universe. You never travel back in time in your own universe(well the federation of the 24’th cant… the 29’th can but they are not involved).
“Furthermore the Relativity is a red herring. It is NOT part of the debate. You can not use the future of Trek as proof that they will always defeat anyone you pit against them. It is absurd to use that logic.”
The 24’th Federation kicks their asses, not the 29’th.
“I don't understand. Kirk goes back in time to get the whales. If he didn't go back in time to get the whales, the probe would have annihilated Earth. Therefore, this is an example of a change in the timeline, is it not?”
When you time travel you make another reality(with the method the 24’th Federation uses). Kirk made a new reality and saved that one. His original one got boned. Our Federation VS Empire people don’t have to worry about this though, The Fed’s will obviously develop parallel universe traveling abilities.
Please do not bring up the 29’th century……
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Lord Pounder
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Re: The Federation will be able to defeat any Empire invasio
The Imperials are not in Earth orbit! They are slaughtering themselves by the thousands at the Martian Defense Perimeter!Lach wrote:The Federation will be able to defeat any Empire invasion.
Don't blame us, blame ParamountThis poses a problem as almost EVERYTHING star wars is cannon and little star trek is... but I'll work with what I have.
A wormhole is commonly used to bring both sides together and that'd bypass the galactic barrierThe "barrier" to the galaxy(made by the Q's but that is not in a cannon source.... it's existence and effects are cannon though) is supposed to isolate the galaxy, we assume the empire SOMEHOW manages to get their fleet through it without going insane.
Well you can't rely on it can you. If the Feds could use it why didn't they use it to prevent the Dominion War or their loss at Wolf 359?On the few posts I have read so far, I see many star wars fans derisively snearing at time travel.
Because they don't support a swift victory for Trek but instead a swift defeat?I derisively snear at the rediculous output of empires weapons.
Trek ships would still be limited by warp driveThe applications to win with time travel are.... well infinite. You could effectively get an ininite amount of recconacinse.
Okay let's say I'm a Fed captian, my ship is in say the Rigel system and I just learned that Earth has fallen to the Empire and that Imperial ships have just appeared at the edge of the system.You can get all the technology information of the enemy and study it for ultimate critical weaknesses.
I decide to time travel say 100 years into the past
I'm still in the Rigel sytem and I have no means to go to the SW galaxy, all I can do is warn Earth and hope that the Federation fairs only slightly better 100 years later
24th century Captain Bob goes to the 29th century and meets Captian TomYou can get hyper advanced technology for yourself....
Captian Bob: Give me those turbophaser blueprints so we can use them to defeat the Empire
Captian Tom: Why should I help you it'll violate the Temporal Prime Directive
Captian Bob: Because the Federation must win. the Federation must never die!
Captian Tom: You're under arrest for conspiring to destroy the Galactic Empire
#### except it turns out time travel won't save THAT reality because when you time travel it makes alternate realities.
Ooops...... my friend explained this to me. FORTUNATELY the federation still wins in ALL realities
How many times has the federation traveled to parralel universes? Numerously and even though the technology to do so is not well understood they have ALL the time they need to develop it to the point that they do, then go across realities to save that one too!Final summation: The Empire could never conquer or defeat the Federation in all out war because after the all our war is lost by the federation the REAL war begins-a war where the federation gets infinite do-overs
[/quote]-
Soontir C'boath
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Re: The Federation will be able to defeat any Empire invasio
Where the hell did that come from?FedRebel wrote:A wormhole is commonly used to bring both sides together and that'd bypass the galactic barrier.
I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season."
Re: The Federation will be able to defeat any Empire invasio
Crap! with all the spaces I forgot about the bottom part
Coud a mod fix my above post?
Coud a mod fix my above post?
Re: The Federation will be able to defeat any Empire invasio
Just my baseless opinionSoontir C'boath wrote: Where the hell did that come from?
And everything I've seen that brings both sides together it's via wormhole
You have yet to prove that the Federation uses Time Travel as a means of waging war. The only time the Federation used time travel was through the actions of individual Captains like Kirk, or perhaps through a Borg-created temporal vortex.Lach wrote:Not using all of an enemies assets in a conflict is the ultimate copout.
Firstly, the "temporal equations" were created by Spock. So far as we know, unless Spock is on your ship, you can't go back in time. Normal Federation Captains and normal Federation officers don't know how to travel back in time.
The Federation's "time travel" is not an integral defense of 24th Century Federation. That is what we are talking about. I made the same mistake as you in brining in the Relativity. The Federation does not have "time travel ships" standing by in case of an emergency in the 24th Century.The Federation has time travel, it is an INTEGRAL part of the defence of the federation over its history.
Assumes they know what the hell they are doing. How many times did the 29th Century Feds send back Seven? ten times? A hundred? (been a long time since I watched that episode). Any Federation Captain who worked out a half-baked plan to time travel might not realize how profound the Empire's advantage was, and might squander their resources. The 29th Century Feds did not do reconnasiance, they kept sending Seven back over and over again to die.I would think they’d rather stay in their own galaxy and simply use the time for preparation to fight em.
Again assumes the Feds know what they are doing. Given that the Temporal Department of the Federation doesn't exist until the 29th Century, nobody knows what to do and it would be difficult for a Federation Captain to think of a plan so elaborate or fathom the power of the Empire.You do not fight for a LONG time. The Federation needs A LOT of time to prepare first, they spend the time they need to find critical weaknesses in every imperial technology or make better tech themselves. The fate of your species, if your entire GALAXY is on the line-if you are using time travel it is your last resort-you are desperate, you will take the time to do it right.
Part of the rules of the debate is that the protagonists act "in character". The only group that would prepare so far in advance, with hundreds of generations of research and so on, would be a well-organized group with a mandate to protect the Federation, such as the Temporal Department of Defense in the 29th Century. The 24th century Fed Captain travelling back in time would not think so far ahead.We can ONLY use cannon sources, this is a huge disadvantage for the federation BUT we can not turn it off for the empire when it becomes inconvenient. We have NO evidence the empire has such technology. MORE SO they are attacking a FAR inferior enemy, they have no reason to use time travel. They have no reason to set up redundancy because any sane civilization will only use it as a last resort. They would not even know the Federation is using time travel, how could they? Possibly a dozen, hundreds of human generations of work would be done in preparation via time traveling to fight the time travel but for the empire… they would never know.
Again, another out-of-character statement. The Federation has never done this before, and it would take a well-organized well-thought out coherent plan to do this. The Department of Temporal Defense doesn't exist in the 24th Century."A nice little theory I had a while back. The Federation has the ability to travel within one time line. They send people and assets back in time as far as they can and their mission is to conduct research. These people are ordered to make contact at the point of the next time travel point and go back to research with their new technology and knowledge. Repeat a couple thousand times and now you've got a very advanced technology base.”
If I was unclear this was one of the solutions I presented. I think this is the most likely course of action the federation would take.
Because it is out of character for them. They do not go around violating the Temporal Prime Directive.On a side note I’d be willing to bet with Picard and Janeway both as admirals they ALREADY have a “chrono colony” tucked away somewhere, just in case. Why wouldn’t they?
Incorrect. The more times you time travel, the more "chronoton" particles build up in your system. Seven nearly died from too many times time travelling.You just need ONE captain who survives to have the motivation to set up a chrono colony….. who says the current federation fleet defeats the enemy? It could be they go back to right before the empire comes or earlier and heavily bolster the fleet, there are also MANY other solutions(I do not need to list them, I’m sure you can figure it out). NO matter HOW MANY times they fail, they can always try again-that is the good part of time travel.
Again setting up a Chrono Colony would be a violation of the Temporal Prime Directive and be out of character for Federation Captains. Federation Captains have repeatedly shown that they would be willing to die for their ideals rather than violate the Federation's principles. For example, Janeway could have built a winning alliance by trading transporter tech and replicator tech and gotten home faster. She did not, even though stranded in the Delta Quadrant.One possibility, why not? As the chrono colony concept...
Federation Captains would rather die than violate the Temporal Prime Directive.
The Federation does not have a system set up to create self-sustaining time-colonies. Not to mention the Temporal Prime Directive.The FUTURE federation would not help. The CURRENT federation would set up a series of self sustaining time traveling colonies/systems(as I’ve started calling them, chrono colonies) one all hell has broken loose. I do not think the USS relativity would stop the CURRENT Federation from using time travel to save itself because if it did NOT do so, the future federation would not exist…
Sure, you may get an individual Captain willing to violate the Temporal Prime Directive. But what are you suggesting, a creation of a "chrono-colony" goes beyond all the things we have seen characters do in Star Trek. For example, why wasn't a "chrono-colony" created by an individual Captain who realized that they were about to lose the Dominion war?
Every time we see someone time travel, it is to do something direct for example remove a bomb, get Whales, etc. What makes you think that setting up a chrono colony is in-character for a Starfleet Captain? Oh and that Temporal Prime Directive thing.Thank you for saving me the time to write that heh, I completely agree… I need to read whole posts and not respond to them lime by line(which USUALLY works but did not in this case). EXCEPT the last point…. I disagree with. The first time traveling is NOT to fight, MUCH time (relative to the series of time travelers) goes by before that happens, the first step is to set up chrono colonies…. It is obvious you are going to have A LOT of trial and error to defeat such an overwhelming foe. If you are desperate enough to use time travel, you’d do it right and set up overlapping redundancies.
Voyager's time travel involved the 29th Century. 29th Century is out of bounds for this debate.We cannot because the federation will not. They use it as a last resort repeatedly, and often use it even when it is not a last resort(see Voyager for most of those).
Brian
Another point.
Most of the Time Travel we have seen has been reactive. For example, someone goes back in time to change the past, and the Feds chase backwards after them. The only instance that I can think of a person going back in time to change the past would be Kirk and the Whales. And that wasn't really changing the past, only changing the future (two Whales probably doesn't make any difference in the timeline). Not to mention that the Temporal Prime Directive doesn't exist in TOS.
So, Federation Captains of the 24th Century would be bound by the Temporal Prime Directive. You would need someone as reckless as Kirk, a genius as smart as Spock to figure out the time travel equations.
A rare combination.
Brian
Most of the Time Travel we have seen has been reactive. For example, someone goes back in time to change the past, and the Feds chase backwards after them. The only instance that I can think of a person going back in time to change the past would be Kirk and the Whales. And that wasn't really changing the past, only changing the future (two Whales probably doesn't make any difference in the timeline). Not to mention that the Temporal Prime Directive doesn't exist in TOS.
So, Federation Captains of the 24th Century would be bound by the Temporal Prime Directive. You would need someone as reckless as Kirk, a genius as smart as Spock to figure out the time travel equations.
A rare combination.
Brian
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Soontir C'boath
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Re: The Federation will be able to defeat any Empire invasio
Right, so why'd you give it for?FedRebel wrote:Just my baseless opinion
I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season."
I'm still not seeing HOW time travel will enable the Feds to win. The only thing put forth so far is that it will give em time to create more powerful tech.
But we're not talking a couple years here to catch up, we're talking 1000's of years. Plus, we're not talking just theororetical work, you'll need a shit load of assets back in time to go forward. Time, money, equipment, space to test and build.
I really don't think its the magic bullet your looking for.
But we're not talking a couple years here to catch up, we're talking 1000's of years. Plus, we're not talking just theororetical work, you'll need a shit load of assets back in time to go forward. Time, money, equipment, space to test and build.
I really don't think its the magic bullet your looking for.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
The Whale Probebrianeyci wrote:The two instances during which the Earth would have been defeated -- the Whale Probe and the Borg assimilation -- the Feds did not hesitate to change the future. The Whale Probe incident in particular.
Actually, we never knew whether the Earth would be defeated. For all we know, the probe may have eventually given up trying to contact the whales and departed. Kirk and crew went into the past to try to find some whales before the outcome of the probes activities was known. We have no idea what might have occurred in an alternate timeline in which the Bird of Prey never went back in time.
First Contact
Again, we don't know if the "starting" timeline was really affected by the Borg sphere's trip into the past. The Enterprise-E was immediately caught in the sphere's "temporal wake", so anything seen from their perspective is suspect. For all we know, in the original timeline, the sphere and the Enterprise-E both vanished into a temporal anomaly, never to be seen again.
And for Alyeska...
ENT "Regeneration"
All this episode establishes is that Enterprise occurs in a timeline that descends from the one in which the E-E travelled backwards through time chasing the Borg. It doesn't establish that the Federation can really travel backwards and forwards within one timeline.
"This is supposed to be a happy occasion... Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who."
-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail
"Nothing of consequence happened today. " -- Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776
"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"
-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail
"Nothing of consequence happened today. " -- Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776
"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"
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Darth Servo
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Someone (can't remember who) pointed this out: "What is time travel going to do? Will some Federation captain jump back ten days and tell everyone to run for the hills?"
"everytime a person is born the Earth weighs just a little more."--DMJ on StarTrek.com
"You see now you are using your thinking and that is not a good thing!" DMJay on StarTrek.com
"Watching Sarli argue with Vympel, Stas, Schatten and the others is as bizarre as the idea of the 40-year-old Virgin telling Hugh Hefner that Hef knows nothing about pussy, and that he is the expert."--Elfdart
"You see now you are using your thinking and that is not a good thing!" DMJay on StarTrek.com
"Watching Sarli argue with Vympel, Stas, Schatten and the others is as bizarre as the idea of the 40-year-old Virgin telling Hugh Hefner that Hef knows nothing about pussy, and that he is the expert."--Elfdart
"Well you can't rely on it can you. If the Feds could use it why didn't they use it to prevent the Dominion War or their loss at Wolf 359?"
It was not cataclysmic enough. They won wolf 359 with conventional weapons, just a huge loss of life. They defeated the dominion. They would not use time travel till after they loss. Victory even with massive casualties is preferable to time travel, but as hated as time travel is, it has been seen as a viable last resort repetedly.
"Because they don't support a swift victory for Trek but instead a swift defeat?"
I did not say because I snear at them they do not exist. That snear was infact in response to the claims that time travel is somehow "cheating" when it does infact look to be an integral part of the Federations "final" defense.
"Trek ships would still be limited by warp drive"
And all the time and as many do-overs as they need.
"Okay let's say I'm a Fed captian, my ship is in say the Rigel system and I just learned that Earth has fallen to the Empire and that Imperial ships have just appeared at the edge of the system.
I decide to time travel say 100 years into the past
I'm still in the Rigel sytem and I have no means to go to the SW galaxy, all I can do is warn Earth and hope that the Federation fairs only slightly better 100 years later"
No, what you do is find an isolated planet in the federation and start up a colony-someplace that would not have any interferance in the current timeline. Warning earth will not be enough to win. That colony becomes self sustaining and has its own time travelers ready to go, just in case. They work on getting technology and rescources, ANYTHING they need, to beat the empire. When they are ready, they stop the empire. Given infinite time and the inifnite rescources that time provides, and as many do-overs as they require, how can they possibly fail?
"24th century Captain Bob goes to the 29th century and meets Captian Tom
Captian Bob: Give me those turbophaser blueprints so we can use them to defeat the Empire
Captian Tom: Why should I help you it'll violate the Temporal Prime Directive
Captian Bob: Because the Federation must win. the Federation must never die!
Captian Tom: You're under arrest for conspiring to destroy the Galactic Empire"
They do not get help from the 29'th century. After the "chrono colony" gets going.... RIGHT before the empires invasion, they go back in time to right after the colonie's founding and pass off the work to THEM so they can continue with a head start. They continue to do this till they have what they need.
How they get across the barrier does not matter.... we have to assume they can somehow.... even though that owuld be beating the Q's by a very well known(but not cannon) source. We assume they find a way through the barrier.
"You have yet to prove that the Federation uses Time Travel as a means of waging war. The only time the Federation used time travel was through the actions of individual Captains like Kirk, or perhaps through a Borg-created temporal vortex."
And Janeway, and Cisco and the newest enterprise.... who said it needed to be an official Federation sanctioned endeavor to happen? With the scattered fleet after the very rapid fall of earth(and other major planets) INDIVIDUAL CAPTAINS would likley take the initiative to do it.
"Firstly, the "temporal equations" were created by Spock. So far as we know, unless Spock is on your ship, you can't go back in time"
We learn in Janeway that the information is in the Federation database, just that acess is highly restricted..... however it is unrestricted enough that Janeway, a high but not highest ranking captain has acess to it. The information is in enough peoples hands that acess to it is not a problem.
"The Federation's "time travel" is not an integral defense of 24th Century Federation. That is what we are talking about. I made the same mistake as you in brining in the Relativity. The Federation does not have "time travel ships" standing by in case of an emergency in the 24th Century."
With both Kirk AND Janewa in the admiralty, who have both used time travel personally.... I would bet you are wrong. We can not depend on the fact that they do. Even if they do not, individual captains can take the initiative to go back in time. Any ship that can reach warp 7, can time travel.
"Assumes they know what the hell they are doing. How many times did the 29th Century Feds send back Seven? ten times? A hundred? (been a long time since I watched that episode). Any Federation Captain who worked out a half-baked plan to time travel might not realize how profound the Empire's advantage was, and might squander their resources. The 29th Century Feds did not do reconnasiance, they kept sending Seven back over and over again to die."
We are not talking about the 29'th century generation. We are talking about a group of 24'th century federation who loop back on themselves to pass on their progress. As stated above since the Empire would rape them SO FAST it is fairly obvious they are far beyond anything in the milky way, even the borg. The FIRST thing any intelligent Federation captain who comes up with this plan would do is set up redundancies so that if he fails, he can try again. If I came up with it, surley they would.....
"Again assumes the Feds know what they are doing. Given that the Temporal Department of the Federation doesn't exist until the 29th Century, nobody knows what to do and it would be difficult for a Federation Captain to think of a plan so elaborate or fathom the power of the Empire. "
The ability to travel back in time to desired dates has been shown in both The Next Generation and Voyager... REPETADLY. That is beyond question. Why do they need to know the exact power of the empire? The fact that they are overwhelmingly stronger when the basically destroy the federation in a month is all they need to know.
"Part of the rules of the debate is that the protagonists act "in character". The only group that would prepare so far in advance, with hundreds of generations of research and so on, would be a well-organized group with a mandate to protect the Federation, such as the Temporal Department of Defense in the 29th Century. The 24th century Fed Captain travelling back in time would not think so far ahead."
It is ONE generation of people who pass their own work back to their pasts selves. It needs not be well organized, one ship could get the job done. If *I* think this far ahead, SURLEY some federation captain who has his ship hiding after the Federation got raped has thought of it. This is not a particularly complicated idea.... I came up with it and apparently another person in this very same thread did. Of COURSE he would think so far ahead, what else do you think they are thinking about? Why are you assuming the Federation captain who would consider time travel and his crew are idiots who can not come up with the fairly simple planI did? If your willing to use time travel, redundancies is the most OBVIOUS thing you could do as your first course of action!
"Again, another out-of-character statement. The Federation has never done this before, and it would take a well-organized well-thought out coherent plan to do this. The Department of Temporal Defense doesn't exist in the 24th Century"
WE ARE NO TALKING ABOUT THE 29'TH CENTURY-GET IT OUT OF YOUR HEAD. We are talking about the 24'th century. APPARENTLY by your logic people are unable to act in a certain way if they never have before... if they never had such stimuli(i.e. the empire invading!) how can you make such an utterly rediculous claim? The 24'th century Federation never tried to set up a self sustaining colony so OBVIOUSLY they could not come up with the idea in the face of Aramagedon.... even if people on this forum have and the will to do so has been demonstrated by the 50 or so times the crew of Voyager worked till old age to go back in time and save themselves.
"Because it is out of character for them. They do not go around violating the Temporal Prime Directive."
Re-read what you just wrote. You can not claim everything is out of character simply because you do not like it. NONE of what I have said is out of character, I have very clearly explained their motivations, you have just ignored them. Picard and Janeway ignore the normal and temporal prime directive five times before they drink their morning coffee.
"Incorrect. The more times you time travel, the more "chronoton" particles build up in your system. Seven nearly died from too many times time travelling."
They sent back the SAME seven repetadly(I believe, I missed that episode). The colony is founded. They work on the problem for eighty years.... the empire coms. They go back in time and give it to their PAST SELVES. You do not seem to understand my argument. They themselves do not keep going back and trying, other timelines of themselves do. Every time they try, they pass off the torch so to speak, and they keep trying what they want and passing back the work till they succeed. They have shown the motivation to work till the end of their lives to prevent an atrocity many times in Voyager and TNG.
"Again setting up a Chrono Colony would be a violation of the Temporal Prime Directive and be out of character for Federation Captains. Federation Captains have repeatedly shown that they would be willing to die for their ideals rather than violate the Federation's principles. For example, Janeway could have built a winning alliance by trading transporter tech and replicator tech and gotten home faster. She did not, even though stranded in the Delta Quadrant."
Like Picard who has ignored it a million times... JANEWAY HERSELF DID MY IDEA(with some variation) when her future self helped her past self defeat the Borg. This is OBVIOUSLY in character, Janeway did it! Janeway picks and chooses when to follow the prime directive, she certainly had no quams using it to defeat the borg and save herself...
"Federation Captains would rather die than violate the Temporal Prime Directive."
Except all the times they did.
"For example, why wasn't a "chrono-colony" created by an individual Captain who realized that they were about to lose the Dominion war?"
Because they did not. The "worst case scenario" did not yet happen. The Federation was not destroyed, Earth did not fall. They would only go back after all conventional options were tried. They had things left to try... and they worked.
"Voyager's time travel involved the 29th Century. 29th Century is out of bounds for this debate."
Janeway used time travel to help them defeat the borg. Individual crewmen(Janeway is dead in half of these) work on Voyager for their whole lives to go back in time and stop something. None of these involve the 29'th century.
"Most of the Time Travel we have seen has been reactive. For example, someone goes back in time to change the past, and the Feds chase backwards after them. The only instance that I can think of a person going back in time to change the past would be Kirk and the Whales. And that wasn't really changing the past, only changing the future (two Whales probably doesn't make any difference in the timeline). Not to mention that the Temporal Prime Directive doesn't exist in TOS.
So, Federation Captains of the 24th Century would be bound by the Temporal Prime Directive. You would need someone as reckless as Kirk, a genius as smart as Spock to figure out the time travel equations."
When Janeway explains she plans to use time travel in one of the episodes she explains how it is a closley guarded secret in the Federation database.... how closely guarded is it if she knows how to do it? The crew of Voyager did it themselves when Janeway was dead a couple of times... obviously it is not that guarded. People as reckless as Kirk are not in short supply lol.
"I'm still not seeing HOW time travel will enable the Feds to win. The only thing put forth so far is that it will give em time to create more powerful tech.
But we're not talking a couple years here to catch up, we're talking 1000's of years. Plus, we're not talking just theororetical work, you'll need a shit load of assets back in time to go forward. Time, money, equipment, space to test and build.
I really don't think its the magic bullet your looking for."
The Empire fleet or part of itis in orbit around a certain star at X date.... the time travelers know this. They develop a solar detonator, make the sun go nova. They send back a probe to detonate the sun. This is just one example of how tech and knowledge of the past will help you win with time travel. Use your imagination there are ALOT of solutions heh.
"It doesn't establish that the Federation can really travel backwards and forwards within one timeline."
As stated even if it is a different time line, it is possible to travel BETWEEN realities as shown dozens of times, usually not on purpose. They have the time to figure out how to do it.
"Someone (can't remember who) pointed this out: "What is time travel going to do? Will some Federation captain jump back ten days and tell everyone to run for the hills?"
Read above... they use the time to get technology to beat them.
It was not cataclysmic enough. They won wolf 359 with conventional weapons, just a huge loss of life. They defeated the dominion. They would not use time travel till after they loss. Victory even with massive casualties is preferable to time travel, but as hated as time travel is, it has been seen as a viable last resort repetedly.
"Because they don't support a swift victory for Trek but instead a swift defeat?"
I did not say because I snear at them they do not exist. That snear was infact in response to the claims that time travel is somehow "cheating" when it does infact look to be an integral part of the Federations "final" defense.
"Trek ships would still be limited by warp drive"
And all the time and as many do-overs as they need.
"Okay let's say I'm a Fed captian, my ship is in say the Rigel system and I just learned that Earth has fallen to the Empire and that Imperial ships have just appeared at the edge of the system.
I decide to time travel say 100 years into the past
I'm still in the Rigel sytem and I have no means to go to the SW galaxy, all I can do is warn Earth and hope that the Federation fairs only slightly better 100 years later"
No, what you do is find an isolated planet in the federation and start up a colony-someplace that would not have any interferance in the current timeline. Warning earth will not be enough to win. That colony becomes self sustaining and has its own time travelers ready to go, just in case. They work on getting technology and rescources, ANYTHING they need, to beat the empire. When they are ready, they stop the empire. Given infinite time and the inifnite rescources that time provides, and as many do-overs as they require, how can they possibly fail?
"24th century Captain Bob goes to the 29th century and meets Captian Tom
Captian Bob: Give me those turbophaser blueprints so we can use them to defeat the Empire
Captian Tom: Why should I help you it'll violate the Temporal Prime Directive
Captian Bob: Because the Federation must win. the Federation must never die!
Captian Tom: You're under arrest for conspiring to destroy the Galactic Empire"
They do not get help from the 29'th century. After the "chrono colony" gets going.... RIGHT before the empires invasion, they go back in time to right after the colonie's founding and pass off the work to THEM so they can continue with a head start. They continue to do this till they have what they need.
How they get across the barrier does not matter.... we have to assume they can somehow.... even though that owuld be beating the Q's by a very well known(but not cannon) source. We assume they find a way through the barrier.
"You have yet to prove that the Federation uses Time Travel as a means of waging war. The only time the Federation used time travel was through the actions of individual Captains like Kirk, or perhaps through a Borg-created temporal vortex."
And Janeway, and Cisco and the newest enterprise.... who said it needed to be an official Federation sanctioned endeavor to happen? With the scattered fleet after the very rapid fall of earth(and other major planets) INDIVIDUAL CAPTAINS would likley take the initiative to do it.
"Firstly, the "temporal equations" were created by Spock. So far as we know, unless Spock is on your ship, you can't go back in time"
We learn in Janeway that the information is in the Federation database, just that acess is highly restricted..... however it is unrestricted enough that Janeway, a high but not highest ranking captain has acess to it. The information is in enough peoples hands that acess to it is not a problem.
"The Federation's "time travel" is not an integral defense of 24th Century Federation. That is what we are talking about. I made the same mistake as you in brining in the Relativity. The Federation does not have "time travel ships" standing by in case of an emergency in the 24th Century."
With both Kirk AND Janewa in the admiralty, who have both used time travel personally.... I would bet you are wrong. We can not depend on the fact that they do. Even if they do not, individual captains can take the initiative to go back in time. Any ship that can reach warp 7, can time travel.
"Assumes they know what the hell they are doing. How many times did the 29th Century Feds send back Seven? ten times? A hundred? (been a long time since I watched that episode). Any Federation Captain who worked out a half-baked plan to time travel might not realize how profound the Empire's advantage was, and might squander their resources. The 29th Century Feds did not do reconnasiance, they kept sending Seven back over and over again to die."
We are not talking about the 29'th century generation. We are talking about a group of 24'th century federation who loop back on themselves to pass on their progress. As stated above since the Empire would rape them SO FAST it is fairly obvious they are far beyond anything in the milky way, even the borg. The FIRST thing any intelligent Federation captain who comes up with this plan would do is set up redundancies so that if he fails, he can try again. If I came up with it, surley they would.....
"Again assumes the Feds know what they are doing. Given that the Temporal Department of the Federation doesn't exist until the 29th Century, nobody knows what to do and it would be difficult for a Federation Captain to think of a plan so elaborate or fathom the power of the Empire. "
The ability to travel back in time to desired dates has been shown in both The Next Generation and Voyager... REPETADLY. That is beyond question. Why do they need to know the exact power of the empire? The fact that they are overwhelmingly stronger when the basically destroy the federation in a month is all they need to know.
"Part of the rules of the debate is that the protagonists act "in character". The only group that would prepare so far in advance, with hundreds of generations of research and so on, would be a well-organized group with a mandate to protect the Federation, such as the Temporal Department of Defense in the 29th Century. The 24th century Fed Captain travelling back in time would not think so far ahead."
It is ONE generation of people who pass their own work back to their pasts selves. It needs not be well organized, one ship could get the job done. If *I* think this far ahead, SURLEY some federation captain who has his ship hiding after the Federation got raped has thought of it. This is not a particularly complicated idea.... I came up with it and apparently another person in this very same thread did. Of COURSE he would think so far ahead, what else do you think they are thinking about? Why are you assuming the Federation captain who would consider time travel and his crew are idiots who can not come up with the fairly simple planI did? If your willing to use time travel, redundancies is the most OBVIOUS thing you could do as your first course of action!
"Again, another out-of-character statement. The Federation has never done this before, and it would take a well-organized well-thought out coherent plan to do this. The Department of Temporal Defense doesn't exist in the 24th Century"
WE ARE NO TALKING ABOUT THE 29'TH CENTURY-GET IT OUT OF YOUR HEAD. We are talking about the 24'th century. APPARENTLY by your logic people are unable to act in a certain way if they never have before... if they never had such stimuli(i.e. the empire invading!) how can you make such an utterly rediculous claim? The 24'th century Federation never tried to set up a self sustaining colony so OBVIOUSLY they could not come up with the idea in the face of Aramagedon.... even if people on this forum have and the will to do so has been demonstrated by the 50 or so times the crew of Voyager worked till old age to go back in time and save themselves.
"Because it is out of character for them. They do not go around violating the Temporal Prime Directive."
Re-read what you just wrote. You can not claim everything is out of character simply because you do not like it. NONE of what I have said is out of character, I have very clearly explained their motivations, you have just ignored them. Picard and Janeway ignore the normal and temporal prime directive five times before they drink their morning coffee.
"Incorrect. The more times you time travel, the more "chronoton" particles build up in your system. Seven nearly died from too many times time travelling."
They sent back the SAME seven repetadly(I believe, I missed that episode). The colony is founded. They work on the problem for eighty years.... the empire coms. They go back in time and give it to their PAST SELVES. You do not seem to understand my argument. They themselves do not keep going back and trying, other timelines of themselves do. Every time they try, they pass off the torch so to speak, and they keep trying what they want and passing back the work till they succeed. They have shown the motivation to work till the end of their lives to prevent an atrocity many times in Voyager and TNG.
"Again setting up a Chrono Colony would be a violation of the Temporal Prime Directive and be out of character for Federation Captains. Federation Captains have repeatedly shown that they would be willing to die for their ideals rather than violate the Federation's principles. For example, Janeway could have built a winning alliance by trading transporter tech and replicator tech and gotten home faster. She did not, even though stranded in the Delta Quadrant."
Like Picard who has ignored it a million times... JANEWAY HERSELF DID MY IDEA(with some variation) when her future self helped her past self defeat the Borg. This is OBVIOUSLY in character, Janeway did it! Janeway picks and chooses when to follow the prime directive, she certainly had no quams using it to defeat the borg and save herself...
"Federation Captains would rather die than violate the Temporal Prime Directive."
Except all the times they did.
"For example, why wasn't a "chrono-colony" created by an individual Captain who realized that they were about to lose the Dominion war?"
Because they did not. The "worst case scenario" did not yet happen. The Federation was not destroyed, Earth did not fall. They would only go back after all conventional options were tried. They had things left to try... and they worked.
"Voyager's time travel involved the 29th Century. 29th Century is out of bounds for this debate."
Janeway used time travel to help them defeat the borg. Individual crewmen(Janeway is dead in half of these) work on Voyager for their whole lives to go back in time and stop something. None of these involve the 29'th century.
"Most of the Time Travel we have seen has been reactive. For example, someone goes back in time to change the past, and the Feds chase backwards after them. The only instance that I can think of a person going back in time to change the past would be Kirk and the Whales. And that wasn't really changing the past, only changing the future (two Whales probably doesn't make any difference in the timeline). Not to mention that the Temporal Prime Directive doesn't exist in TOS.
So, Federation Captains of the 24th Century would be bound by the Temporal Prime Directive. You would need someone as reckless as Kirk, a genius as smart as Spock to figure out the time travel equations."
When Janeway explains she plans to use time travel in one of the episodes she explains how it is a closley guarded secret in the Federation database.... how closely guarded is it if she knows how to do it? The crew of Voyager did it themselves when Janeway was dead a couple of times... obviously it is not that guarded. People as reckless as Kirk are not in short supply lol.
"I'm still not seeing HOW time travel will enable the Feds to win. The only thing put forth so far is that it will give em time to create more powerful tech.
But we're not talking a couple years here to catch up, we're talking 1000's of years. Plus, we're not talking just theororetical work, you'll need a shit load of assets back in time to go forward. Time, money, equipment, space to test and build.
I really don't think its the magic bullet your looking for."
The Empire fleet or part of itis in orbit around a certain star at X date.... the time travelers know this. They develop a solar detonator, make the sun go nova. They send back a probe to detonate the sun. This is just one example of how tech and knowledge of the past will help you win with time travel. Use your imagination there are ALOT of solutions heh.
"It doesn't establish that the Federation can really travel backwards and forwards within one timeline."
As stated even if it is a different time line, it is possible to travel BETWEEN realities as shown dozens of times, usually not on purpose. They have the time to figure out how to do it.
"Someone (can't remember who) pointed this out: "What is time travel going to do? Will some Federation captain jump back ten days and tell everyone to run for the hills?"
Read above... they use the time to get technology to beat them.
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Rogue 9
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Wolf 359 was a cataclysmic defeat, dumbass. They didn't even scratch the Cube, much less win the engagement. In fact, Starfleet lost all hands AFAIK.It was not cataclysmic enough. They won wolf 359 with conventional weapons, just a huge loss of life.
It's Rogue, not Rouge!
HAB | KotL | VRWC/ELC/CDA | TRotR | The Anti-Confederate | Sluggite | Gamer | Blogger | Staff Reporter | Student | Musician
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Armored Goldbar
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Everyone has been much too civil so far. This SD.net not the damn Carebears forum. Therefore, since the original poster has repeated made arguments that are silly at best or already discussed on the main site or in this forum at worst I will say what we are all thinking and what Darth Wong would really want me to say:
You are a goddamn idiot.
I will wait for MW to come down here and prove it mathematically.
You are a goddamn idiot.
I will wait for MW to come down here and prove it mathematically.
Disclaimer: Unless otherwise stated, all statistics have been provided by the Federal Bureau of Pulling Statistics Out of My Ass.
You can't spell lost without Lt.
"The Force is a mystical energy field created by all living things that surrounds us all and binds the universe together...or a bunch of bugs that live in our blood, depending on which movie you watch."
You can't spell lost without Lt.
"The Force is a mystical energy field created by all living things that surrounds us all and binds the universe together...or a bunch of bugs that live in our blood, depending on which movie you watch."
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Isolder74
- Official SD.Net Ace of Cakes
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holy huge posts Batman!
Time travel is a cop out a way to say We lose but make ourselves win anyway my going back in time. Time travel would only allow the Federation to play the Empire invades thing over and over again. How can they make it into a win? Even stealing weapons doesn't work. It makes no sense as a argument either.
Frankly Time Travel is not any kind of magic bullet. It is not even an easy way out. Go back in time and stealing a Star Destroyer will do them no good either. Unles you are suggesting them going back in time and destroying the Humans of the Empire when they are cavemen...but that is the ulimate cope out!
Time travel is a cop out a way to say We lose but make ourselves win anyway my going back in time. Time travel would only allow the Federation to play the Empire invades thing over and over again. How can they make it into a win? Even stealing weapons doesn't work. It makes no sense as a argument either.
Frankly Time Travel is not any kind of magic bullet. It is not even an easy way out. Go back in time and stealing a Star Destroyer will do them no good either. Unles you are suggesting them going back in time and destroying the Humans of the Empire when they are cavemen...but that is the ulimate cope out!
Hapan Battle Dragons Rule!
When you want peace prepare for war! --Confusious
That was disapointing ..Should we show this Federation how to build a ship so we may have worthy foes? Typhonis 1
The Prince of The Writer's Guild|HAB Spacewolf Tank General| God Bless America!
When you want peace prepare for war! --Confusious
That was disapointing ..Should we show this Federation how to build a ship so we may have worthy foes? Typhonis 1
The Prince of The Writer's Guild|HAB Spacewolf Tank General| God Bless America!