Americans seeking immigration data jam Canadian website

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-11-10 01:13am

Wow, another childless punk who calls people "quitters" for putting something ahead of nationalism. Did it ever occur to you people that not everyone puts nationalism as their number one priority in life?

Gustav32Vasa · Post by **Gustav32Vasa** » 2004-11-10 01:36am

Butterbean569 wrote:Let them move to Canada. I'm just as pissed about Bush winning and the ammendments being passed as most of you, but I don't think it's worth leaving the country. If they'll give up so easily, then we're better without them. Yes, we're better without them. They're sore losers and quitters, and that's the last thing we need here in America.

Minor nitpick. If they move to Canada they will still be in America.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2004-11-10 01:37am

OMG, people from around the world left their country to go to America! The US is a country of quitters omg lol pish posh.

Butterbean569 · Post by **Butterbean569** » 2004-11-10 10:05am

Darth Wong wrote:Wow, another childless punk who calls people "quitters" for putting something ahead of nationalism. Did it ever occur to you people that not everyone puts nationalism as their number one priority in life?

The point of my post was this: When people go from the US to Canada, they will realize that Canada isn't the promised land. There will still be bigots, there will still be governmental corruption, and there will still be poverty. One can argue that Canada has advantages over the US, and I won't deny that. However, these advantages are slight *at best*, and people that come straight out and say they want to move to Canada from the US because of the recent election are quitting on their country.

As I said, it's their choice and I'm not going to tell them what to do. I'm just telling you my opinion and giving you reasons behind it.

Butterbean569 · Post by **Butterbean569** » 2004-11-10 10:13am

As an add-on, I just wanted to say this:

I'm more pissed at the people that *say* they want to leave but have no intention of doing so. While I still think that people who move to Canada from America are doing the wrong thing, I don't really have that big of a problem with it because they actually had the balls and motive to do so.

Spyder · Post by **Spyder** » 2004-11-10 05:08pm

Butterbean569 wrote:One can argue that Canada has advantages over the US, and I won't deny that. However, these advantages are slight *at best*, and people that come straight out and say they want to move to Canada from the US because of the recent election are quitting on their country.

You have failed to prove that "quitting" on the US as you like to call it is a bad thing. The idea that you have some sort of obligation to not leave a country when you don't like where it's going is patently rediculous.

Butterbean569 · Post by **Butterbean569** » 2004-11-10 05:30pm

You're right, no one has an obligation to stay in their country if they don't like it. As an American citizen (or a citizen of any country), however, I think one should leave drastic measures to drastic circumstances. That's why I don't mind gay couples moving to Canada (or somewhere else for that matter) to get married. I would even support someone moving under those circumstances. They are being directly discriminated against, and there's not much they can do about it.

Obviously, I'm not in a position to determine what is a bad enough situation to warrant moving to another country. It's a case by case basis, and is an individual's choice. I just want to point out that 95% of those that do end up emmigrating will find out that the grass may not be greener on the other side. And if it isn't greener on the other side, you might as well stay put and try to fix what's wrong where you live.

There's a thing called loyalty to one's country. If your country has totally screwed you over (bad economy, gay marriage ban, religious persecution, etc), then bailing out may be an option. However, I don't consider "bad things on the horizon" counting as being totally screwed over by your country.

Perhaps I'm just young and idealistic, I dunno. All I know is that there are many times in my nearly 20 years of life where I wanted to leave/quit/give up, but stuck in there....and things turned out very well after persistence and patience.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2004-11-10 06:34pm

Don't ask what you can do for your country. Ask what your country can do for you.

Spyder · Post by **Spyder** » 2004-11-10 09:29pm

Butterbean569 wrote:
There's a thing called loyalty to one's country. If your country has totally screwed you over (bad economy, gay marriage ban, religious persecution, etc), then bailing out may be an option. However, I don't consider "bad things on the horizon" counting as being totally screwed over by your country.

No there fucking well isn't. If someone doesn't like where they live For any reason then it is their right to seek change. National loyalty is quite frankly a bullshit concept, that exists only to encourage people to act as drones. Tell me something, why do you think national loyalty is an important concept? What is the logical reason why someone should remain loyal to a particular nation? And what's your opinion on those that breached their national loyalty by leaving Soviet Russia?

Butterbean569 · Post by **Butterbean569** » 2004-11-10 10:41pm

Comparing national loyalty by using the Soviet Union in place of the US is pathetic. No matter how bad you think America is now, you can't possibly compare the two. I've already said that I support people who want to leave because they are being directly oppressed/persecuted. So you already have my answer with that USSR bullshit you came up with.

Trust me, I don't fall for the whole "support Bush or you're unpatriotic" type thing either, if that's what you were trying to get at.

What is the logical reason to remain loyal to *anything*? What is the logical reason to remain loyal to your husband/wife? If anything, it's logical to *not* be loyal to your mate...especially if you're a male. But we remain loyal (well....some of us lol). Why? There's a thing called honor and integrity. Honor and integrity don't mean following the crowd blindly, and doing whatever you are told, but it does mean that sometimes you just need to suck it up, have patience, and keep trying.

Did I ever question their right to seek change *FOR ANY REASON*? No. I've said it many times...if they want to do it then they're free to do so and I'm not going to stop them. I won't always approve, however....

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2004-11-10 10:59pm

Butterbean569 wrote:Comparing national loyalty by using the Soviet Union in place of the US is pathetic. No matter how bad you think America is now, you can't possibly compare the two. I've already said that I support people who want to leave because they are being directly oppressed/persecuted. So you already have my answer with that USSR bullshit you came up with.

Trust me, I don't fall for the whole "support Bush or you're unpatriotic" type thing either, if that's what you were trying to get at.

What is the logical reason to remain loyal to *anything*? What is the logical reason to remain loyal to your husband/wife? If anything, it's logical to *not* be loyal to your mate...especially if you're a male. But we remain loyal (well....some of us lol). Why? There's a thing called honor and integrity. Honor and integrity don't mean following the crowd blindly, and doing whatever you are told, but it does mean that sometimes you just need to suck it up, have patience, and keep trying.

Did I ever question their right to seek change *FOR ANY REASON*? No. I've said it many times...if they want to do it then they're free to do so and I'm not going to stop them. I won't always approve, however....

There's actually a damn good reason for loyalty. Human beings are social animals, individually rather poorly equipped to survive in nature. What made us the dominant species on this planet is our intelligence, plus our teamwork. Loyalty to a group ensures that the members will remain part of the group, and all work to continue to advance the group. Loyalty to your country is not "bullshit". No country ever prospered in which the majority of its people held that attitude. And when the country doesn't prosper, the people living in it are worse off.

Spyder · Post by **Spyder** » 2004-11-10 11:10pm

Butterbean569 wrote:Comparing national loyalty by using the Soviet Union in place of the US is pathetic. No matter how bad you think America is now, you can't possibly compare the two. I've already said that I support people who want to leave because they are being directly oppressed/persecuted. So you already have my answer with that USSR bullshit you came up with.

By who's defnition of persecution are we referring to. Yours or theirs? If we're dealing with your definition of persecution then you must justify why your version is supreme. People left the soviet union because they felt they were being persecuted by the political and economic systems in place, these are perfectly valid reasons for leaving America, people that would prefer a socialized welfare system, people that would benefit from stem cell research, athiests, people that have lost their jobs, lost subsidized health care, had their quality of life greatly reduced over the past four years all have a right to feel persecuted against. They have a right to feel as though they are being treated as second class citizens.

Trust me, I don't fall for the whole "support Bush or you're unpatriotic" type thing either, if that's what you were trying to get at.

No, what you're doing is removing Bush and replacing him with a giant hunk of dirt with some stars and stripes dotted over it.

What is the logical reason to remain loyal to *anything*? What is the logical reason to remain loyal to your husband/wife? If anything, it's logical to *not* be loyal to your mate...especially if you're a male. But we remain loyal (well....some of us lol). Why? There's a thing called honor and integrity. Honor and integrity don't mean following the crowd blindly, and doing whatever you are told, but it does mean that sometimes you just need to suck it up, have patience, and keep trying.

So, you married America? Is that legal? There's a subtle difference between a geographic location that you happened to be born into and a spouse.

Did I ever question their right to seek change *FOR ANY REASON*? No. I've said it many times...if they want to do it then they're free to do so and I'm not going to stop them. I won't always approve, however....

Bullshit:

However, these advantages are slight *at best*, and people that come straight out and say they want to move to Canada from the US because of the recent election are quitting on their country.

The election results are a reason, this is you questioning it and accusing them of quitting their country.

Post by **Edi** » 2004-11-11 02:56am

Perinquus wrote:There's actually a damn good reason for loyalty. Human beings are social animals, individually rather poorly equipped to survive in nature. What made us the dominant species on this planet is our intelligence, plus our teamwork. Loyalty to a group ensures that the members will remain part of the group, and all work to continue to advance the group. Loyalty to your country is not "bullshit". No country ever prospered in which the majority of its people held that attitude. And when the country doesn't prosper, the people living in it are worse off.

The addendum to this is that one may not choose the country one is born to, but one can choose which country to live in and give loyalty to, and to fault somebody for choosing or wanting to choose some other country over yours on the basis quoted above is hypocritical.

Edi

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2004-11-11 07:12am

Edi wrote:
Perinquus wrote:There's actually a damn good reason for loyalty. Human beings are social animals, individually rather poorly equipped to survive in nature. What made us the dominant species on this planet is our intelligence, plus our teamwork. Loyalty to a group ensures that the members will remain part of the group, and all work to continue to advance the group. Loyalty to your country is not "bullshit". No country ever prospered in which the majority of its people held that attitude. And when the country doesn't prosper, the people living in it are worse off.
The addendum to this is that one may not choose the country one is born to, but one can choose which country to live in and give loyalty to, and to fault somebody for choosing or wanting to choose some other country over yours on the basis quoted above is hypocritical.

Edi

And you could use the exact same logic to justify the stance that you owe no loyalty whatever to your family either. But how may people would consider that an admirable position to take, unless your family are shitbags who have behaved so badly that they have forfeited your loyalty?

Post by **Lagmonster** » 2004-11-11 08:42am

Butterbean569 wrote:Think about it. How much does the government REALLY affect your day to day life? How much would moving from America to Canada really change things? There are differences, to be sure...but to say that either is better than the other by anything more than a slight margin is blatant Nationalism IMO

If you're gay, it makes a difference, for starters.

And all of that you said about Canada being a lot like the US should be seen as a GOOD thing. If you wanted to leave America, wouldn't you prefer to go somewhere that you have all the benefits you're used to - technology, language, recognizable jobs - but less of the things you hated about where you came from?

Captain Kruger · Post by **Captain Kruger** » 2004-11-11 08:57am

Lagmonster wrote:If you're gay, it makes a difference, for starters.

And all of that you said about Canada being a lot like the US should be seen as a GOOD thing. If you wanted to leave America, wouldn't you prefer to go somewhere that you have all the benefits you're used to - technology, language, recognizable jobs - but less of the things you hated about where you came from?

Hell, if you remove national governments, you can't tell much difference between the two except for the road signs. Seattle and Vancouver have fewer differences overall than Seattle and Los Angeles.

Post by **Edi** » 2004-11-11 03:51pm

Perinquus wrote:And you could use the exact same logic to justify the stance that you owe no loyalty whatever to your family either. But how may people would consider that an admirable position to take, unless your family are shitbags who have behaved so badly that they have forfeited your loyalty?

Yes, indeed one could. And believe it or not, I have some friends who have families that shitty, that they have cut off all contact with everyone but their siblings. Usually it takes a lot for family to forfeit loyalty, but it does happen on occasion. However, typically family usually isn't that bad even though every (extended) family has its bad/screwball apples. In any case, there is nothing wrong with the logic of my argument.

Edi

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-11-11 03:55pm

Perinquus wrote:There's actually a damn good reason for loyalty. Human beings are social animals, individually rather poorly equipped to survive in nature. What made us the dominant species on this planet is our intelligence, plus our teamwork. Loyalty to a group ensures that the members will remain part of the group, and all work to continue to advance the group. Loyalty to your country is not "bullshit". No country ever prospered in which the majority of its people held that attitude. And when the country doesn't prosper, the people living in it are worse off.

Some would say that loyalty to ideals and principles is more important than loyalty to the Fatherland.

Loyalty is good; just ask yourself what you should be loyal to.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2004-11-11 04:55pm

Edi wrote:
Perinquus wrote:And you could use the exact same logic to justify the stance that you owe no loyalty whatever to your family either. But how may people would consider that an admirable position to take, unless your family are shitbags who have behaved so badly that they have forfeited your loyalty?
Yes, indeed one could. And believe it or not, I have some friends who have families that shitty, that they have cut off all contact with everyone but their siblings. Usually it takes a lot for family to forfeit loyalty, but it does happen on occasion. However, typically family usually isn't that bad even though every (extended) family has its bad/screwball apples. In any case, there is nothing wrong with the logic of my argument.

Edi

Actually there is one thing, and this applies to both loyalty to family, and loyalty to country. While it is true that you did not choose either your country or your parents, you simply cannot say that this absolves you of all loyalty. The reason is that you owe both your family and your country. Obviously I'm not talking about cases of bad families, or oppressive countries, who by thei actions toward you abrogate any loyalty you might owe them. But if you had a good family, you owe them a lot. You owe them for raising you, feeding you, educating you, providing you with all your needs, and many of your wants, and for helping you in innumerable other ways your whole life. That's a big debt. So you damn sure owe them some loyalty for that. This is why we regard people who treat their parents badly so poorly. So there's nothing the least "hypocritical" about the argument I advanced.

By the same token, you do also owe your country. It may be that the debt you owe your country is less obvious than the one you owe your family, but it is no less real. When you grow up in a stable, prosperous country, you benefit from the opportunities its prosperity affords you, you enjoy the protection of its laws and the security provided by its armed forces, you enjoy a certain amount of protection and status as citizen of your country when you travel abroad, and can call upon embassies and consulates to assist you with myriad difficulties you may be faced with when you travel, you may benefit from any number of government programs from welfare to student loans to medicare, and other things. You owe your country a lot. There is nothing the least bit wrong or hypocritical about loyalty to your country - provided that country is worthy of loyalty, and I think the United States certainly is. What is hypocritical is to enjoy the benefits and the protection of your society and your country, and then to show it no loyalty.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-11-11 04:59pm

Perinquus wrote:There is nothing the least bit wrong or hypocritical about loyalty to your country - provided that country is worthy of loyalty, and I think the United States certainly is. What is hypocritical is to enjoy the benefits and the protection of your society and your country, and then to show it no loyalty.

Loyalty to country is like loyalty to anyone or anything else; it tends to evapourate once you feel you have been betrayed by the other party.

Of course, that betrayal can be more explicit in some cases than in others; for example, gay people who are increasingly seeing legal discrimination written into state constitutions against them have been betrayed in a very fundamental manner; they are being increasingly legislated into a "subclass" by the society which they once thought to guarantee fundamental rights to all people. For others, their sense of betrayal may be weaker. But I'd hazard a guess that anyone who really does leave instead of just bitching about it is doing so because his sense of nationalistic loyalty was overwhelmed by his sense that the nation betrayed the values he thought it stood for.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2004-11-11 05:16pm

If you want unconditional loyalty, get a dog.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2004-11-11 10:00pm

Elfdart wrote:If you want unconditional loyalty, get a dog.

Please point out where I ever used the word unconditional, or even implied it.

Post by **Edi** » 2004-11-12 02:33am

Perinquus wrote:Actually there is one thing, and this applies to both loyalty to family, and loyalty to country. While it is true that you did not choose either your country or your parents, you simply cannot say that this absolves you of all loyalty.

No, in and of itself it does not, provided that there have been actions on their part that can be considered to deserve at least some loyalty. This tends to be the default state of affairs, which is why it actually takes an active effort to dispel those ties of loyalty.

Perinquus wrote:The reason is that you owe both your family and your country.

By default, yes (not necessarily to both, though, it's possible to be born into a good family in a shitty country or shitty family in a good country, in which case only one of the two deserves loyalty), because in order to reach an age where you can actually debate about this issue you need some support from somewhere, and usually that comes from the family and/or the state.

Perinquus wrote:But if you had a good family, you owe them a lot. You owe them for raising you, feeding you, educating you, providing you with all your needs, and many of your wants, and for helping you in innumerable other ways your whole life. That's a big debt.

No kidding! Look, I'm just about the last person in the world you need to tell this. I've gone on record on this board to state just how much I owe my parents and the rest of my family, because they have done everything you listed above and then some for me. In my case, it's a debt that I cannot ever repay. Can't even begin to, but it won't stop me from trying.

Perinquus wrote:So you damn sure owe them some loyalty for that. This is why we regard people who treat their parents badly so poorly. So there's nothing the least "hypocritical" about the argument I advanced.

Loyalty to family and loyalty to country are two different branches of the same tree, not the same branch. There is nothing hypocritical about your argument when applied to the family. However, your home country does not necessarily merit as much loyalty, because ultimately it is the family which has the primary burden of raising you.

Perinquus wrote:By the same token, you do also owe your country. It may be that the debt you owe your country is less obvious than the one you owe your family, but it is no less real. When you grow up in a stable, prosperous country, you benefit from the opportunities its prosperity affords you, you enjoy the protection of its laws and the security provided by its armed forces, you enjoy a certain amount of protection and status as citizen of your country when you travel abroad, and can call upon embassies and consulates to assist you with myriad difficulties you may be faced with when you travel, you may benefit from any number of government programs from welfare to student loans to medicare, and other things. You owe your country a lot.

This is true enough, and at least personally it is a debt I acknowledge. However, such a debt and even feelings of loyalty do not preclude transference of primary loyalty somewhere else if that place is better. Often a subjective issue, if the options are more or less similar (e.g. Finland and the US, for some the first is better, for others the second, and we would be two good examples of just that).

Perinquus wrote:There is nothing the least bit wrong or hypocritical about loyalty to your country - provided that country is worthy of loyalty, and I think the United States certainly is.

This is generally true, but there are too many subjective elements to state it unequivocally. For gay people, objectively Canada would be much more worthy of loyalty because it can provide them with the same benefits as the US and also gives them equality while in the US there is an active societal movement to discriminate against them and to sign that discrimination into law. For most people, there is an option of moving elsewhere in-country if they don't like their neighbors and so forth, but if they have better opportunities elsewhere, then they would be fools not to go.

Perinquus wrote:What is hypocritical is to enjoy the benefits and the protection of your society and your country, and then to show it no loyalty.

Yes, but beware of setting up a catch-22 where you say that sure there are circumstances that can negate loyalty while simultaneously stating that the debt can't be paid back. Most people happily obey laws and pay their taxes, which is mostly about as much loyalty as the state requires, and if they uproot themselves and start doing that someplace else, nothing wrong with it. If they find their new home deserves more loyalty, then there is nothing wrong with that. There are Finns who have moved to the US and transferred their loyalty there (along with their citizenship), for example.

I agree that there are a lot of people who are all full of hot air about moving elsewhere due to the election results, but dismissing everyone who wants to go elsewhere as whiney almost-traitors is not right either.

Edi