ChiComs lock Fire Control Radars onto Taiwanese PM's plane

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-11-11 04:57pm

Linky

Jets target Taiwan PM's plane

Taipei - Fighter jets from China locked on to a plane carrying Taiwan President Chen Shui-bian during a trip over the Taiwan Strait, it was reported on Thursday.

Chen's Air Force One official plane had been heading for Penghu, an island group in the strait, when it was targeted by the warplanes from China, the United Daily News said, quoting unidentified Chinese defence sources.

Vice-president Annette Lu's plane was also targeted by Chinese fighter jets when she was flying to Penghu on October 2, the paper said.

The report came one day after Chen called for the establishment of a "buffer zone" in the strait where military aircraft and vessels from both sides must not enter without advance notice to avoid unexpected clashes.

The Air Force One with Chen onboard arrived in Penghu 15 minutes behind schedule on September 27 as 28 Chinese fighter jets were hovering over the strait, the paper said.

The gesture had been was meant to demonstrate Beijing's capability to defend its "sovereignty" over Taiwan, not to initiate any attacks, it quoted the mainland sources as saying.

A number of Taiwan's air force jets were scrambled after some of the rival warplanes had passed the hypothetical middle line of the strait, the 150km wide waterway separating the two rivals, it added.

Taiwan's defence authorities declined to comment on the report.

Tensions between the two sides have been rising since the re-election of the independence-leaning Chen, with Beijing renewing its long-standing vow to take the island by force should it declare formal independence.

China considers Taiwan part of its territory awaiting to be reunified despite their split in 1949 after a civil war.

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Hmm China's playing a dangerous game here...

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-11-11 05:05pm

Careful now. You don't know if the Taiwanese flight didn't have a nuke or something onboard. I cans see why they'd feel so threatened.

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2004-11-11 05:23pm

28 planes for an airliner?

Just how shitty are their pilots and their air-to-air missiles?

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-11-11 05:26pm

Tsyroc wrote:28 planes for an airliner?

Just how shitty are their pilots and their air-to-air missiles?

Well, they did ram that US spyplane in the not-too-distant-past...

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2004-11-11 05:50pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote: Well, they did ram that US spyplane in the not-too-distant-past...

True.

Wasn't that guy a bit of a show off or something?

White Haven · Post by **White Haven** » 2004-11-11 06:12pm

Replace 'that guy' with 'China' and you've got a more accurate statement. Given the current adminstration, it'd be hypocritical to comment too much on the lack of quality of China's government, but, eh, I'm doing it anyway.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-11-11 06:24pm

White Haven wrote:Replace 'that guy' with 'China' and you've got a more accurate statement. Given the current adminstration, it'd be hypocritical to comment too much on the lack of quality of China's government, but, eh, I'm doing it anyway.

*Gasp* Racist!

At least, that's what one friend of mine said when I brought up the same criticism.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2004-11-11 09:37pm

China is a country where hotel security guards are required to perform marching drills and military exercises. Saber-rattling militarism should not be unexpected.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2004-11-11 09:54pm

The gesture had been was meant to demonstrate Beijing's capability to defend its "sovereignty" over Taiwan, not to initiate any attacks, it quoted the mainland sources as saying.

Oooh they were demonstrating their sovereignty. Why don't they try that against something that can shoot back.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2004-11-11 10:05pm

Tsyroc wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote: Well, they did ram that US spyplane in the not-too-distant-past...
True.

Wasn't that guy a bit of a show off or something?

I think China did claim that he'd been disciplined in the past for being a bit of a loose cannon; whether it's true or not I never found out. It could have been showing off, it could have been incompetence.

Grand Moff Yenchin · Post by **Grand Moff Yenchin** » 2004-11-12 12:01am

...the United Daily News said, quoting unidentified Chinese defence sources.

Bah, the UDN, I was wondering why no one mentioned it on the local forums.

Not to say that they're wrong, but they have a bad record of bias and exaggerating everything against the Pan-Green politicians.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-11-12 12:35am

Cpl Kendall wrote:
The gesture had been was meant to demonstrate Beijing's capability to defend its "sovereignty" over Taiwan, not to initiate any attacks, it quoted the mainland sources as saying.
Oooh they were demonstrating their sovereignty. Why don't they try that against something that can shoot back.

Taiwan CAN shoot back, Kendall. Their defence force is pretty good, good enough that the PRC at present wouldn't risk a serious confrontation (and also... they don't really have the means to invade yet).

China is playing a dangerous game here, but I think the missile tests were a high in the tensions between the PRC and Taiwan, and this is just another minor standoff. I dread the day when one side or the other feel a need to end this status quo deadlock.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2004-11-12 06:46am

Stofsk wrote: Taiwan CAN shoot back, Kendall. Their defence force is pretty good, good enough that the PRC at present wouldn't risk a serious confrontation (and also... they don't really have the means to invade yet).

I am fully aware of the abilities of Taiwans military. What I'm trying to get at is how is lighting up an unarmed plane a demonstration of sovergeinty?

China is playing a dangerous game here, but I think the missile tests were a high in the tensions between the PRC and Taiwan, and this is just another minor standoff. I dread the day when one side or the other feel a need to end this status quo deadlock.

Well one day China will decide that they must take Taiwan back, simply so they stop looking like asses. That has the potential to become WWIII.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-11-12 06:59am

Cpl Kendall wrote:
Stofsk wrote:Taiwan CAN shoot back, Kendall. Their defence force is pretty good, good enough that the PRC at present wouldn't risk a serious confrontation (and also... they don't really have the means to invade yet).
I am fully aware of the abilities of Taiwans military. What I'm trying to get at is how is lighting up an unarmed plane a demonstration of sovergeinty?

Because it carries on it the President of Taiwan, and bullying a leader the PRC doesn't recognises demonstrates their sovereignty, rightly or wrongly.

Well one day China will decide that they must take Taiwan back, simply so they stop looking like asses. That has the potential to become WWIII.

China has shown every indication of shelving the issue indefinitely, so long as they don't lose face (how long has Taiwan been an issue? Decades). Taiwan insisting on independence would be seen as aggressive in the PRC's eyes, so as long as the former don't get any bright ideas about self-declaration I doubt the Chinese will start shit, this present incident notwithstanding. Also, Taiwan declaring independence would be the stupidest decision they could make at this point, as their biggest supporter - the USA - would probably be pissed off with them and are not likely to support them (they've pretty much said as much in this administration, the last one, the one before etc...). Aside from minor incidents of saber rattling like what we had with this incident, the status quo may very well be the best option for all concerned.

Furthermore, depending on the circumstances of such an occurance, the Americans are by no means guaranteed to enter a conflict on the side of the Taiwanese.

I personally don't think this can continue as it has. Holding this issue indefinitely won't work, as passions from both sides of the Taiwan strait are likely to rise as tensions increase. Either a peaceful solution is put onto the table, or one side does something stupid.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2004-11-12 08:08am

Stofsk wrote: Because it carries on it the President of Taiwan, and bullying a leader the PRC doesn't recognises demonstrates their sovereignty, rightly or wrongly.

Ok, I'll buy that.

*Snip*

Well if the Tawainese can drag it out until China's government self-destructs they should be find.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-11-12 08:12am

Can we count on China's government self destructing? They seem to being to make whatever econemic changes needed to avoid the USSR's fate. And are ruthless enough to smash any civilian uprising.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2004-11-12 08:17am

frigidmagi wrote:Can we count on China's government self destructing? They seem to being to make whatever econemic changes needed to avoid the USSR's fate. And are ruthless enough to smash any civilian uprising.

At this point I'm engaged in alot of finger crossing. I think it's just a matter of time until the government refuses to modernize any more and the Chinese people will dispose of them.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-11-12 08:18am

Stofsk wrote:I am fully aware of the abilities of Taiwans military. What I'm trying to get at is how is lighting up an unarmed plane a demonstration of sovergeinty?

Wouldn't it be more effective to launch simulated bombing raids on Taiwanese ships as they go out for exercise, harass their planes every time they go out of say the 12 mile limit, and so on?

That is, if they can.

Personally, even if the PRC government collapses or transitions into a democracy, I am not convinced they would just let Taiwan be. And if they don't collapse, Taiwan can't play this defense game indefinitely if the Mainlanders are serious. We are talking pitting the productivity of over a billion people to maybe 20 million. The water and the US help is helping the Taiwanese, but these games "dry up" sooner or later.

And when it gets to the point where the Taiwanese would fold very quickly on their own, the US would have some tough choices to make.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2004-11-12 08:22am

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote: Wouldn't it be more effective to launch simulated bombing raids on Taiwanese ships as they go out for exercise, harass their planes every time they go out of say the 12 mile limit, and so on?

That is, if they can.

Personally, even if the PRC government collapses or transitions into a democracy, I am not convinced they would just let Taiwan be. And if they don't collapse, Taiwan can't play this defense game indefinitely if the Mainlanders are serious. We are talking pitting the productivity of over a billion people to maybe 20 million. The water and the US help is helping the Taiwanese, but these games "dry up" sooner or later.

And when it gets to the point where the Taiwanese would fold very quickly on their own, the US would have some tough choices to make.

Even at the PRC's current rate of modernization I figure it'll be at least a decade before they are in any position to actually take the island. They would need to engage in a crash shipbuilding program to do it any sooner. They also need to outnumber the Tawainese forces five to one to invade and hold the island.

There's no way they could transport that number of troops across in the near or foreseeable future.

Of course they could just nuke them.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-11-12 08:29am

I never said they were going to be ready next year or anything like that, Corporal

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2004-11-12 08:37am

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:I never said they were going to be ready next year or anything like that, Corporal

No you didn't. But I doubt the Chinese government will survive in it's present form long enough to actually act against Tawain.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-11-12 08:40am

No you didn't. But I doubt the Chinese government will survive in it's present form long enough to actually act against Tawain.

Where I'm from we call that whisting in the dark Kendall. The United States should make it painfully clear to the PRC that we not allow them to stomp on a free, democracy. It should continue to make that painfully clear until the PRC gives up on the idea.

White Haven · Post by **White Haven** » 2004-11-12 08:50am

I wonder if anyone in the PRC government even realizes that most of the rest of the world just sees them as the schoolyard bully whenever they pull shit like this? They seem to looove tripping up little postage-stamp nations that don't dare do anything...what we need is the equivalent of a few pissed-off football players to step in the way and cough. Unamfuckingbiguously.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2004-11-12 08:53am

frigidmagi wrote:
Where I'm from we call that whisting in the dark Kendall. The United States should make it painfully clear to the PRC that we not allow them to stomp on a free, democracy. It should continue to make that painfully clear until the PRC gives up on the idea.

Not sure what you mean by that. But I'll freely admit that it is an unsubstantiated hope.

That is what the USA should do. Doesn't the USA have a treaty that obligates them to defend Tawain? Even if they don't, seeing as they have been claiming to be the defenders of democracy lately, they better help them out when the shit hits the fan. Besides what does the PRC have that makes them so special? Why shouldn't the US oppose their unsubstantiated aggression towards Tawain?

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-11-12 09:07am

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:Wouldn't it be more effective to launch simulated bombing raids on Taiwanese ships as they go out for exercise, harass their planes every time they go out of say the 12 mile limit, and so on?

That is, if they can.

Personally, even if the PRC government collapses or transitions into a democracy, I am not convinced they would just let Taiwan be.

They will not. China has had Taiwan in its sights since General Kaishek took the defeated Nationalists and formed the Republic of China, and was given a permanent seat on the UNSC. Taiwan, a nation of mere millions, was recognised as the 'legitimate' China, and the PRC was ignored. Until Nixon went to China, that is.

And if they don't collapse, Taiwan can't play this defense game indefinitely if the Mainlanders are serious. We are talking pitting the productivity of over a billion people to maybe 20 million. The water and the US help is helping the Taiwanese, but these games "dry up" sooner or later.

Agreed. THe only questions is 'how' and 'when'? I hope for a peaceful settlement, but I wonder how it can be possible.

And when it gets to the point where the Taiwanese would fold very quickly on their own, the US would have some tough choices to make.

I think when it comes down to it, stability in the region will prevail and the US will leave Taiwan. It's one thing to dump state-of-the-art military defences onto Taiwan, it's quite another to jump into a war with another rising superpower. Yeah, the USM will trounce the PLA, but it won't do it without tremendous cost, and probably little benefit (the PRC is only the second biggest economy in the world, and from some indications, is expected to surpass the USA by 2020. World Bank org.)

Cpl Kendall wrote:Even at the PRC's current rate of modernization I figure it'll be at least a decade before they are in any position to actually take the island. They would need to engage in a crash shipbuilding program to do it any sooner. They also need to outnumber the Tawainese forces five to one to invade and hold the island.

There's no way they could transport that number of troops across in the near or foreseeable future.

Of course they could just nuke them.

Uh, the PLA doesn't need to nuke or invade Taiwan to completely fuck it up. It can wage an economic war with the island; indeed, this may be the likliest mode of attack as it is 'peaceful' and not really aggressive the way launching missiles is.

frigidmagi wrote:Where I'm from we call that whisting in the dark Kendall. The United States should make it painfully clear to the PRC that we not allow them to stomp on a free, democracy. It should continue to make that painfully clear until the PRC gives up on the idea.

No, it shouldn't. Because that will likely exacerbate the situation to America's detriment. America has had the 'One China' policy for decades, and this is something which has shown bipartisan support. Also the Taiwan Relations Act gives America a great deal of 'strategic ambiguity' to give it flexible options, and to play psychological warfare with the PRC. They PRC don't know which way the American government would turn, so they do nothing and keep the matter shelved. The USA in its turn respects China and doesn't cause it to lose face. If this were changed how much shit do you think the world would be in?

The US made it quite clear in the Taiwan straits missile crisis that it will call China's bluff when appropriate (and China rattling the saber by launching missiles near Taiwan is a pretty fucking ballsy move for the PRC to make, deploying two CVN BGs was called for), yet it will not support Taiwan making moves towards independence, and Clinton stated as much (and other admins have implied as much, with support and endorsement of the One China policy).

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ChiComs lock Fire Control Radars onto Taiwanese PM's plane

ChiComs lock Fire Control Radars onto Taiwanese PM's plane

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