Is Luke a Master?

[Praxis]

He was scared of turning to the dark side so he avoided fighting him like a wuss. Stupid, I know. But whenever he was forced to fight (to save Jacen, or to save Mara, or when he finally got over his dark side fear in the last book) he kicked rear.

I don't think it's fair to say he was a wuss. It's what he was taught by Obi-Wan and Yoda, and as the "first of the new," he had an incredible burden on him. Luke had to lead all the Jedi by example; anger and aggression lead the Dark Side. Why would he put the galaxy at stake with a new wave of Jedi if there still might be a peaceful solution?

5 years of Vong marching through the galaxy, wiping out entire worlds at once, making false promises, declaring Holy War, murdering people by the billions...and he would put the galaxy at stake by STOPPING the Vong?

Fighting an agressor is not agression. Anakin figured this out. Why couldn't Luke?

It would be like a police officer with a powerful gun, which is so powerful that when he sees someone about to be murdered he doesn't stop the murderer because he's afraid he might hurt him.

[Knife]

5 years of Vong marching through the galaxy, wiping out entire worlds at once, making false promises, declaring Holy War, murdering people by the billions...and he would put the galaxy at stake by STOPPING the Vong?

Fighting an agressor is not agression. Anakin figured this out. Why couldn't Luke?

It would be like a police officer with a powerful gun, which is so powerful that when he sees someone about to be murdered he doesn't stop the murderer because he's afraid he might hurt him.

He was scared shitless of the Jedi all becoming Sith or Dark Jedi in fighting the Vong. With the early exploits of Kype and crew, along with Jaina, he had some validity to those fears.

[The Cleric]

Kyp has more raw power than Luke, but lacks the control and discipline (and this point is confirmed in several books).

Luke is the eldest Jedi, and therefore should be Master. In all likelihood, he doesn't stack up to the Master's in his father's day, but as the oldest/wisest Jedi left he certainly can claim the title of Master.

And the "fear of the Dark Side" is an explanation given in several books, and the most plausible given what we know Luke can do vs. what he does in most books.

[Stofsk]

5 years of Vong marching through the galaxy, wiping out entire worlds at once, making false promises, declaring Holy War, murdering people by the billions...and he would put the galaxy at stake by STOPPING the Vong?

I haven't read the NJO, but you know my position on the Force - particularly the Dark Side. The ROTS teaser seems to suggest the DS really can "dominate one's destiny, consume you it will."

Without having read the NJO, I can only speculate that Luke's justification was "The cure might be worse than the disease." Then again, I could be completely wrong. I might have to finally read the NJO to see these debates in the proper context...

Fighting an agressor is not agression. Anakin figured this out. Why couldn't Luke?

While true, the saying "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" comes to mind here. Luke seemed to have been pained with indecision, which doesn't fit his character all that well (what happened to the impulsive Jedi who rushed off to Bespin? Who surrendered to the Imperials to confront Vader and the Emperor? Who surrendered to the Emperor's force-storm that whipped him up from Coruscant to Byss? Then again, it's possible a certain amount of restraint and reflection developed as a result of the above, as he very nearly died in all three...)

It would be like a police officer with a powerful gun, which is so powerful that when he sees someone about to be murdered he doesn't stop the murderer because he's afraid he might hurt him.

Actually the analogy would be if the police officer had a powerful gun that might go through the offender and hit a bystander beyond, or penetrate thin urban or suburban walls and hit a child in a next door house, or if the gun itself held the possibility of exploding in the wielder's hands. The Force isn't a tool that can be used indescriminately. Luke understood the perils of the Dark Side and thus, he reasoned that using it recklessly can lead to greater suffering. I don't know how this relates to the NJO, but in DE we see him nearly fall to the Dark Side with nothing but the BEST of intentions (defeat the Emperor and his Empire from the inside).

[Praxis]

5 years of Vong marching through the galaxy, wiping out entire worlds at once, making false promises, declaring Holy War, murdering people by the billions...and he would put the galaxy at stake by STOPPING the Vong?

I haven't read the NJO, but you know my position on the Force - particularly the Dark Side. The ROTS teaser seems to suggest the DS really can "dominate one's destiny, consume you it will."

Without having read the NJO, I can only speculate that Luke's justification was "The cure might be worse than the disease." Then again, I could be completely wrong. I might have to finally read the NJO to see these debates in the proper context...

Absolutely right on Luke's position there. Perfect guess. Except that if the disease wasn't cured, it would result in the destruction of the entire galaxy. THAT is why Luke's position is wussy.

There was some subtance since Kyp seemed bordering on the dark side the whole time fighting the Vong, but Luke's refusal to fight the Vong resulted in many of the Jedi running out and fighting the Vong without support and getting killed, and also a number of Jedi being killed when the Vong found their hiding places.

Fighting an agressor is not agression. Anakin figured this out. Why couldn't Luke?

While true, the saying "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" comes to mind here. Luke seemed to have been pained with indecision, which doesn't fit his character all that well (what happened to the impulsive Jedi who rushed off to Bespin? Who surrendered to the Imperials to confront Vader and the Emperor? Who surrendered to the Emperor's force-storm that whipped him up from Coruscant to Byss? Then again, it's possible a certain amount of restraint and reflection developed as a result of the above, as he very nearly died in all three...)

Yeah, after 25 years he became a lot more reflective, especially after losing several students to the dark side and watching Brakiss die and Kyp kill millions.

It would be like a police officer with a powerful gun, which is so powerful that when he sees someone about to be murdered he doesn't stop the murderer because he's afraid he might hurt him.

Actually the analogy would be if the police officer had a powerful gun that might go through the offender and hit a bystander beyond, or penetrate thin urban or suburban walls and hit a child in a next door house, or if the gun itself held the possibility of exploding in the wielder's hands. The Force isn't a tool that can be used indescriminately. Luke understood the perils of the Dark Side and thus, he reasoned that using it recklessly can lead to greater suffering. I don't know how this relates to the NJO, but in DE we see him nearly fall to the Dark Side with nothing but the BEST of intentions (defeat the Emperor and his Empire from the inside).

What if shooting the offender could save millions of lives? Would you take the risk of hurting some others to save millions?

[The Cleric]

It would be like a police officer with a powerful gun, which is so powerful that when he sees someone about to be murdered he doesn't stop the murderer because he's afraid he might hurt him.

Actually the analogy would be if the police officer had a powerful gun that might go through the offender and hit a bystander beyond, or penetrate thin urban or suburban walls and hit a child in a next door house, or if the gun itself held the possibility of exploding in the wielder's hands. The Force isn't a tool that can be used indescriminately. Luke understood the perils of the Dark Side and thus, he reasoned that using it recklessly can lead to greater suffering. I don't know how this relates to the NJO, but in DE we see him nearly fall to the Dark Side with nothing but the BEST of intentions (defeat the Emperor and his Empire from the inside).

What if shooting the offender could save millions of lives? Would you take the risk of hurting some others to save millions?[/quote]

Luke's fear is that he will be successful, but consumed by the Dark Side. With his level of power and mastery in the current galaxy, he'd be the New Emperor with no one to challange him. And that would be worse than the destruction of the galaxy (in his mind).

[JME2]

It would be like a police officer with a powerful gun, which is so powerful that when he sees someone about to be murdered he doesn't stop the murderer because he's afraid he might hurt him.

Actually the analogy would be if the police officer had a powerful gun that might go through the offender and hit a bystander beyond, or penetrate thin urban or suburban walls and hit a child in a next door house, or if the gun itself held the possibility of exploding in the wielder's hands. The Force isn't a tool that can be used indescriminately. Luke understood the perils of the Dark Side and thus, he reasoned that using it recklessly can lead to greater suffering. I don't know how this relates to the NJO, but in DE we see him nearly fall to the Dark Side with nothing but the BEST of intentions (defeat the Emperor and his Empire from the inside).

What if shooting the offender could save millions of lives? Would you take the risk of hurting some others to save millions?

Luke's fear is that he will be successful, but consumed by the Dark Side. With his level of power and mastery in the current galaxy, he'd be the New Emperor with no one to challange him. And that would be worse than the destruction of the galaxy (in his mind).[/quote]

This is also part of the bond Luke shared with Anakin Solo. Both of them were descendents of Vader, but it was Luke that had seen Vader's crimes, not Anakin. They both feared the continuation of the Skywalker family's brush with the Dark Side, but Luke more than Anakin since it was present in the former's mind.

[Chris OFarrell]

Personaly I find the idea that Kyp has more raw Force power then Luke very hard to swollow. There are numerous times that Kyp THINKS he has more raw power, by frankly I've seen Luke at his peak pull raw feats of strength that WAY surprass anything Kyp has shown.

One example brought up several times was 'The Unifying Force'. There Luke finaly let down his guards over using so much raw force energy, REALLY giving 120%. He comments to himself that he had never come that close in years simply because he was terified that in such raw useage of the energy, if he acted in anger he could head right for hte Darkside. But when he did, neither Jacen or Jania (who are powerful Jedi in their own rights) could even FOLLOW him, he was THAT fast and powerful, but perfectly centered in the Force.

Then for an encore, he took on a half dozen 'Slayers' AND Shimrra while they were all under the control of a War Co-Ordinator in a room with crazy dorval basils shifting gravity everywhere, and WON, though not without injury. Kyp on the other hand in a duel 1V1 with a Slayer in the same book (a Slayer who was infected with Alpha Red BTW) got his ass handed to him. Luke was forging raw Force power and using it against the Slayers (like Super Force Lightning) while Kyp got defeated, disarmed and restrained in about five seconds.

Kyp has power thats clear. But its more accruate to say that he generaly throws around more power then Luke does while Luke (at least since SOTP/VOTF) generaly uses less and less of his Force power on a day to day basis. Which is what made that bit in TUF such a standout (for him and the Jedi), that he for the first time in ages REALLY let loose.

I even think in Destinys way when Jacen is thinking about how people 'look' through the Jedi Battle Meld, he pictures Luke as 'Burning Power' or something.

Anyway, thats my 2 cents.

[Gustav32Vasa]

Then for an encore, he took on a half dozen 'Slayers' AND Shimrra while they were all under the control of a War Co-Ordinator in a room with crazy dorval basils shifting gravity everywhere, and WON, though not without injury. Kyp on the other hand in a duel 1V1 with a Slayer in the same book (a Slayer who was infected with Alpha Red BTW) got his ass handed to him. Luke was forging raw Force power and using it against the Slayers (like Super Force Lightning) while Kyp got defeated, disarmed and restrained in about five seconds.

Thats a little unfair. Luke knew what they were when meeting them. Kyp was unaware of their powers.

While its obvious that Luke has more knowledge of the Force then Kyp it was shown in Rebel Dream that Kyp has more raw power then Luke.

[Crazedwraith]

Personaly I find the idea that Kyp has more raw Force power then Luke very hard to swollow. There are numerous times that Kyp THINKS he has more raw power, by frankly I've seen Luke at his peak pull raw feats of strength that WAY surprass anything Kyp has shown.

Bingo. On Aaron Allston's website. Thats more or less the repsonse he has on is FAQ Page for the "You said kYP WAS sTRONGER THA lUKE?!?!?!11one" nit.

Of course in the same section it does add a section to Rebel STand where it reveals that 'Face' Loran sucessfullyl lied to Luke through out the book. (the bit where he says he's met Luke before)

[Chris OFarrell]

Then for an encore, he took on a half dozen 'Slayers' AND Shimrra while they were all under the control of a War Co-Ordinator in a room with crazy dorval basils shifting gravity everywhere, and WON, though not without injury. Kyp on the other hand in a duel 1V1 with a Slayer in the same book (a Slayer who was infected with Alpha Red BTW) got his ass handed to him. Luke was forging raw Force power and using it against the Slayers (like Super Force Lightning) while Kyp got defeated, disarmed and restrained in about five seconds.

Thats a little unfair. Luke knew what they were when meeting them. Kyp was unaware of their powers.

Luke had also never come up against them before. Plus these soliders were far worse then the one Kyp came up against given their war co-ordination. And add onto that Shimera and the fact that he had just chewed his way through God knows how many Vong and wasn't even breathing hard...

While its obvious that Luke has more knowledge of the Force then Kyp it was shown in Rebel Dream that Kyp has more raw power then Luke.

No, its shown again that Kyp THINKS he has more power. Allston (who wrote Rebel Dream) did say in response to his question that Kyp thinks it to be true, not that it IS true.

Oh and Face did lie to Luke all through the book, but it wasn't as if Luke was using the Force to gauge his seriousness...

[Praxis]

Uhm, to put an end to all the "Kyp isn't stronger than Luke!!!!111" arguements, Luke found a midi-chlorian scanner in one of the Jedi Academy books and Kyp had more RAW FORCE POWER than anyone, Luke included.

It's not just Kyp that thinks he has more power- he's know that since that book.

HOWEVER, Kyp doesn't have near the control of Luke, so Luke is still capable of performing better feats.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Uhm, to put an end to all the "Kyp isn't stronger than Luke!!!!111" arguements, Luke found a midi-chlorian scanner in one of the Jedi Academy books and Kyp had more RAW FORCE POWER than anyone, Luke included.

Wow, so it is not a continuity flub to invent a character who has more Raw Power than the Son of the Chosen One? I'd have to see this quote for myself! Think a direct quote is possible? Thanks!

[Gandalf]

Uhm, to put an end to all the "Kyp isn't stronger than Luke!!!!111" arguements, Luke found a midi-chlorian scanner in one of the Jedi Academy books and Kyp had more RAW FORCE POWER than anyone, Luke included.

Wow, so it is not a continuity flub to invent a character who has more Raw Power than the Son of the Chosen One? I'd have to see this quote for myself! Think a direct quote is possible? Thanks!

It's not seen how much of the Force-sensitivity is inherited is it? Luke and Leia may have just gotten the standard Jedi dose of midichlorians.

It's possible that Kyp was like another Yoda, just born at the wrong time.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Uhm, to put an end to all the "Kyp isn't stronger than Luke!!!!111" arguements, Luke found a midi-chlorian scanner in one of the Jedi Academy books and Kyp had more RAW FORCE POWER than anyone, Luke included.

It's not just Kyp that thinks he has more power- he's know that since that book.

HOWEVER, Kyp doesn't have near the control of Luke, so Luke is still capable of performing better feats.

Actually, midichlorians are said to usually correlate with the Force potential of an individual; it is not a causal relationship, and it is simply an indicator, which can be flawed or misleading. In other words, it is possible for an individual with a higher midichlorian count to be weaker than someone with a lower one. Therefore this is hardly an explicit contradiction since the nature of midichlorians allows this possibility from the outset.

Moreover, in Shadows of the Empire, Vader says Luke is much more powerful than even him. Explicit. Specific. Canon.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Actually, midichlorians are said to usually correlate with the Force potential of an individual; it is not a causal relationship, and it is simply an indicator, which can be flawed or misleading. In other words, it is possible for an individual with a higher midichlorian count to be weaker than someone with a lower one.

Well, even if that's so, it really sounds like KJA spitting on continuity. But then, this property of his can sometimes come in handy

I'm still interested in the exact quote. Not that I doubt it, I'm just interested.

[Chris OFarrell]

Uhm, to put an end to all the "Kyp isn't stronger than Luke!!!!111" arguements, Luke found a midi-chlorian scanner in one of the Jedi Academy books and Kyp had more RAW FORCE POWER than anyone, Luke included.

No, Luke found a Scanner of SOME type that detects force useers, that may or may not have shown raw Force power. Luke himself comments that he doesn't KNOW what Kyps reading shows or what it means. The fact is that everyone else he scanned had the same picture excepting Kyp. Leia and Luke for example matched equlay, when she is nowhere near his power level. For all we know, Kyp's image getting lined with Red could well mean he is tainted with the Dark Side of the Force. I wouldn't be surprised if Palpy had a device to determine how easy a convert a subject might be to the Dark side. Its pure speculation what the machine says.

It's not just Kyp that thinks he has more power- he's know that since that book.

Once again he THINKS he does. He has never matched Lukes high end acheivments in the Force in raw power and frankly until he does, I simply think he BELIVES it, not that it is true.

HOWEVER, Kyp doesn't have near the control of Luke, so Luke is still capable of performing better feats.

If Luke didn't have the same level of power then he would not have the same level of Stamina or be able to maintain the same use of the Force. Control simply means you can fine tune your accuracy with certian skills. Luke clearly has more control then just about anyone but he is able to back it up with raw energy.

[Chris OFarrell]

Oh and the exact quote is:

Kyp's reproduction hung in the air, bathed with the pale-blue corona Luke had found on the others with genuine Jedi potential. But the aura waxed and waned, knotting itself, turning darker, growing brighter, streaked with red, then becoming tangled.

"What does that mean?" Kyp said.
"He's okay isn't he?" Han seemed eager to have his proteg'e accepted.

Luke wondered at the anomalous mapping, disturbed because he didn't know how to interpret it. The shimmer could be a result of faulty scanning equipment, since the instrument had been roughly treated and could no longer be calibrated - or it could be that because of the strain and pressure on Kyp for so many years, he hadn't quite sprung back to his full potential yet.

In short, we know nothing about what it means.

[JME2]

Oh and the exact quote is:

Kyp's reproduction hung in the air, bathed with the pale-blue corona Luke had found on the others with genuine Jedi potential. But the aura waxed and waned, knotting itself, turning darker, growing brighter, streaked with red, then becoming tangled.

"What does that mean?" Kyp said.
"He's okay isn't he?" Han seemed eager to have his proteg'e accepted.

Luke wondered at the anomalous mapping, disturbed because he didn't know how to interpret it. The shimmer could be a result of faulty scanning equipment, since the instrument had been roughly treated and could no longer be calibrated - or it could be that because of the strain and pressure on Kyp for so many years, he hadn't quite sprung back to his full potential yet.

In short, we know nothing about what it means.

I know. That was a loose end from the Batntam era that I hoped that the NJO would either address or explain, but it never came down to that. Perhaps the post-NJO books might, but I highly doubt it, especially considering the position Kyp's in at the end of TUF.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Actually, midichlorians are said to usually correlate with the Force potential of an individual; it is not a causal relationship, and it is simply an indicator, which can be flawed or misleading. In other words, it is possible for an individual with a higher midichlorian count to be weaker than someone with a lower one.

Well, even if that's so, it really sounds like KJA spitting on continuity. But then, this property of his can sometimes come in handy

I'm still interested in the exact quote. Not that I doubt it, I'm just interested.

Look up midichlorians - I think there's something in the Databank.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Oh and the exact quote is:

Kyp's reproduction hung in the air, bathed with the pale-blue corona Luke had found on the others with genuine Jedi potential. But the aura waxed and waned, knotting itself, turning darker, growing brighter, streaked with red, then becoming tangled.

"What does that mean?" Kyp said.
"He's okay isn't he?" Han seemed eager to have his proteg'e accepted.

Luke wondered at the anomalous mapping, disturbed because he didn't know how to interpret it. The shimmer could be a result of faulty scanning equipment, since the instrument had been roughly treated and could no longer be calibrated - or it could be that because of the strain and pressure on Kyp for so many years, he hadn't quite sprung back to his full potential yet.

In short, we know nothing about what it means.

I know. That was a loose end from the Batntam era that I hoped that the NJO would either address or explain, but it never came down to that. Perhaps the post-NJO books might, but I highly doubt it, especially considering the position Kyp's in at the end of TUF.

I think it was foreshadowing his corruption to the Dark Side of the Force.

[JME2]

Oh and the exact quote is:
In short, we know nothing about what it means.

I know. That was a loose end from the Batntam era that I hoped that the NJO would either address or explain, but it never came down to that. Perhaps the post-NJO books might, but I highly doubt it, especially considering the position Kyp's in at the end of TUF.

I think it was foreshadowing his corruption to the Dark Side of the Force.

That's what I thought as well, but the revelations of the nature of the Force as revealed by the Prequels and the NJO have forced me to re-consider.

[Tychu]

im reading SW: Vision of the Future right now and came across this quote from Mara to Luke pg 221

Such as Unilaterally declaring yourself as a Jedi Master after only 10 years on the job

Mara stated this along with other things on why Lukes acadamey was a failure and that all the problems were his fault. Apparently Mara knows something about how Jedi become masters and Luke didnt do it the right way

[Pcm979]

Yeah, well, she was one *hell* of a help, wasn't she?

[Tychu]

everyone has to have a few of those testing pupils or co workers you know