ChiComs lock Fire Control Radars onto Taiwanese PM's plane

[Aaron]

Still? Such a deal was never approved by either the US or Taiwan's goverment; it simply never has existed and probably never will. Buying four Burkes would cost half of an entire years defence budget and another 200 million or so a year to operate them. And the ships simply don't make sense for Taiwan's defence needs, they would be much better off with more land based missiles and fighters.

I must be confused, I thought I read that they were buying AEGIS ships. But I also read that they may be buying surplus Spruance class destroyers. Can you shed any light on that?

[HemlockGrey]

I'm not really sure an invasion of Taiwan would warrant a total war against China. Flattening the country doesn't seem the best solution, especially since it would be almost childishly easy for the US to simply blockade the straits and sink any invasion force or attempted ChiCom reinforcements. Probably warrant extensive attacks on Chinese military and industrial infrastructure, though.

[Beowulf]

Hey. AF chicks are usually hot.

[Vympel]

I'm not really sure an invasion of Taiwan would warrant a total war against China. Flattening the country doesn't seem the best solution, especially since it would be almost childishly easy for the US to simply blockade the straits and sink any invasion force or attempted ChiCom reinforcements. Probably warrant extensive attacks on Chinese military and industrial infrastructure, though.

The Chinese have a sizeable (and growing- in both numbers and capability) arsenal of mobile anti-ship missiles with cross-Strait range, they could blockade the strait themselves with these (ie. "any merchant ships that come near Taiwan will be sunk"). The US would have to go hunting for them.

[The_Nice_Guy]

Replace 'that guy' with 'China' and you've got a more accurate statement. Given the current adminstration, it'd be hypocritical to comment too much on the lack of quality of China's government, but, eh, I'm doing it anyway.

*Gasp* Racist!

At least, that's what one friend of mine said when I brought up the same criticism.

LOL! The Chinese nationals are certainly bonkers. Even though I'm ethnically chinese, the cultural differences between the China nats and the expats are vast.

I would just call them nationalistic idiots.

TWG

[Chris OFarrell]

I'm not really sure an invasion of Taiwan would warrant a total war against China. Flattening the country doesn't seem the best solution, especially since it would be almost childishly easy for the US to simply blockade the straits and sink any invasion force or attempted ChiCom reinforcements. Probably warrant extensive attacks on Chinese military and industrial infrastructure, though.

The Chinese have a sizeable (and growing- in both numbers and capability) arsenal of mobile anti-ship missiles with cross-Strait range, they could blockade the strait themselves with these (ie. "any merchant ships that come near Taiwan will be sunk"). The US would have to go hunting for them.

Perhaps, but its one thing to scare off Merchies, its a whole different thing to intimidate the 7th Fleet.

Of course we might finaly get to SEE a Soviet Missile Swarm of DOOM (TM). If the damn Russians refused to give AEIGS a workout, perhaps the Chinese will. Unrealistic as it is, the multi regiment Backfire attack against the Nimitz BG in 'Red Storm Rising' with about a zillion AS-4 missiles was very cool. The fact that Fochet got blown out of the water gives me happy fealings.

Perhaps the French will be kind enough to send her down to the Straights where a Sunburn or two can give her a whole new Suntan...

[Captain Kruger]

The PRC definitely won't drop the hammer on Taiwan until after January 20, 2009, when we swear in a new president. GWB would happily shove the USN up China's ass. I think Beijing is well aware of that.

[HemlockGrey]

I'm pretty certain any US President who's not a complete muppet would go for broke against China if they hit Taiwan. Public opinion would almost demand it.

[Captain Kruger]

I'm pretty certain any US President who's not a complete muppet would go for broke against China if they hit Taiwan. Public opinion would almost demand it.

That depends on how the next four years unfold. Shrub might go completely ballistic on the world thanks to his "political capital". If he gets us involved in enough brushfire fighting around the world, American stomachs might not be up for a war with the closest thing to a rival superpower.

Personally, I think the Chinese government needs a punch in the jaw strong enough to knock all their fucking teeth out.

[White Haven]

Hmm, and California's the closest state that actually matters...think we could borrow the governor for a little while, for a little jaw-slugging duty?

[Stark]

So why is Taiwan so important? Noone cares about Tibet or whatever; why should millions of people die because the Taiwanese governement changes? I'm not a PRC fan, but honestly.

[Sea Skimmer]

I must be confused, I thought I read that they were buying AEGIS ships. But I also read that they may be buying surplus Spruance class destroyers. Can you shed any light on that?

The Taiwanese military asked for a potential sale to be approved by the US Congress back in 2000, but that was only the first step, and approval was not granted. If it had been they'd still have had to then go to Taiwan's own legislature and get the sale approved and funded there, which wasn't real likely. The US instead offered four Kidd class destroyers, which are Spruance's equipped with Mk26 missile launchers originally built for Iran. They where embargoed however and the USN had used them ever since. Taiwan however rejected that offer due to the age and outdated systems on the ships, which simply whren't worth the operating costs.

Greece was then going to buy them, but that deal also seems to have died because the USN went and decommissioned them (meaning that a lot of work would be needed to get them back into service) The original deal had called for a hot turnover with Greece taking control as soon as the USN was finished with them.

[Sea Skimmer]

The Taiwanese military asked for a potential sale to be approved by the US Congress back in 2000

Make that 2001

[Seggybop]

So why is Taiwan so important? Noone cares about Tibet or whatever; why should millions of people die because the Taiwanese governement changes? I'm not a PRC fan, but honestly.

We can't let the commies take away our motherboards!!

[aerius]

So why is Taiwan so important? Noone cares about Tibet or whatever; why should millions of people die because the Taiwanese governement changes? I'm not a PRC fan, but honestly.

Tibet isn't really known for anything other than a bunch of monks in the mountains, and I'm not sure what kind of government they have (do they even have one?). Taiwan as a country is just as important as South Korea, they make a huge array of electronics and other goods (I bet you can find at least 10 made in Taiwan items in your home) not to mention they're democratic & all that other stuff.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Tibet isn't really known for anything other than a bunch of monks in the mountains, and I'm not sure what kind of government they have (do they even have one?). Taiwan as a country is just as important as South Korea, they make a huge array of electronics and other goods (I bet you can find at least 10 made in Taiwan items in your home) not to mention they're democratic & all that other stuff.

I think the Dalai Lama has some power, but I doubt there's a true gov't body recognised by China at least.

And Taiwan is a very big general producer of things. For its size, it has quite the far reaching economy.

[Omega18]

I must be confused, I thought I read that they were buying AEGIS ships. But I also read that they may be buying surplus Spruance class destroyers. Can you shed any light on that?

The Taiwanese military asked for a potential sale to be approved by the US Congress back in 2000, but that was only the first step, and approval was not granted. If it had been they'd still have had to then go to Taiwan's own legislature and get the sale approved and funded there, which wasn't real likely. The US instead offered four Kidd class destroyers, which are Spruance's equipped with Mk26 missile launchers originally built for Iran. They where embargoed however and the USN had used them ever since. Taiwan however rejected that offer due to the age and outdated systems on the ships, which simply whren't worth the operating costs.

Greece was then going to buy them, but that deal also seems to have died because the USN went and decommissioned them (meaning that a lot of work would be needed to get them back into service) The original deal had called for a hot turnover with Greece taking control as soon as the USN was finished with them.

I've got to interject here, you information is pretty much outright wrong with regards to Taiwan. There were initial concerns about what you mentioned, but Taiwan ultimately decided to purchase the Kidd Class Destroyers. Recomissioning work and a limited amount of modernization is occuring right now. The first of these destroyers will be delivered by October of 2005. You can read up about the Kidd Class Destroyers at this link.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... n/kidd.htm

[arctic_series]

Tibet isn't really known for anything other than a bunch of monks in the mountains, and I'm not sure what kind of government they have (do they even have one?).

tibet was a big fan of serfdom, until they decided to declare independence when china was experiencing political turmoil at the time, big mistake.

so essentially all the pro-tibet monkies are pretty much advocating slavery to some extent.

Taiwan as a country is just as important as South Korea, they make a huge array of electronics and other goods (I bet you can find at least 10 made in Taiwan items in your home)

but not as important as china. and i bet you can find at least a zillion made in china items in your home.

not to mention they're democratic & all that other stuff.

so ? that does not justify bombing the shit out of the PRC like what most posters in this thread seems to be implying.

frankly taiwanese independence is fucking retarded. who wants people to die just so a few monkies at the top of the political ladder in taiwan can get more power ?

what is especially funny is that if the roles were reversed, i.e china as a democracy and taiwan as the evil commies, it wouldn't even be an issue. as it seems from the responses in this thread that democracy gives any given sovereignty the right to bomb the shit out of a government/country that isn't democratic.

democratic imperialism, i like the sound of that

[arctic_series]

So why is Taiwan so important? Noone cares about Tibet or whatever; why should millions of people die because the Taiwanese governement changes? I'm not a PRC fan, but honestly.

because china without taiwan is like a boxer with one of it's hands tied behind their back. and the US likes to keep it that way.

plus selling weapons to taiwan makes some good money too.

win win situation for the US.

[AniThyng]

given all the money Taiwan has invested in china, even china's leaders won't kill the goose with the golden eggs.

chinese thought has always ultimately been very practical - and for the forseeable future, practical means de facto taiwan independence and taiwan money pouring into mainland cities - actually declaring independence isn't going to benefit many people at all, on both sides of the straits.

[aerius]

Taiwan as a country is just as important as South Korea, they make a huge array of electronics and other goods (I bet you can find at least 10 made in Taiwan items in your home)

but not as important as china. and i bet you can find at least a zillion made in china items in your home.

The shit that's made in China, and I emphasize the word "shit", can be made in any number of 3rd world countries. Lose China and production will shift to the other shithole countries and prices will go up a couple bucks. The stuff that's made in Taiwan isn't so easily replaced. They have a hightech infrastructure there that few countries can match. Lose that and watch the computers, consumer electronics, bicycle manufacturing, and several other key markets get completely fucked over from supply shortages.

so ? that does not justify bombing the shit out of the PRC like what most posters in this thread seems to be implying.

frankly taiwanese independence is fucking retarded. who wants people to die just so a few monkies at the top of the political ladder in taiwan can get more power ?

Yes, and letting China subjugate Taiwan and setting them back 100 years as well as murdering a few million citizens is good how?

what is especially funny is that if the roles were reversed, i.e china as a democracy and taiwan as the evil commies, it wouldn't even be an issue. as it seems from the responses in this thread that democracy gives any given sovereignty the right to bomb the shit out of a government/country that isn't democratic.

If Taiwan was a commie country where thousands of people were disappeared & shot and tens of thousands more were sent into gulags and slave labour camps, and they engaged in military posturing and all the other shit which China is doing, I'd be all for nuking them as well.

The Chicoms are barely a step above North Korea in terms of being an evil repressive regime. Eliminating them is perfectly justified.

[arctic_series]

The shit that's made in China, and I emphasize the word "shit", can be made in any number of 3rd world countries. Lose China and production will shift to the other shithole countries and prices will go up a couple bucks.

except that's not going to happen. so it's a moot point.

The stuff that's made in Taiwan isn't so easily replaced. They have a hightech infrastructure there that few countries can match.

it's not about replacing china or taiwan, because frankly neither can be replaced.

Lose that and watch the computers, consumer electronics, bicycle manufacturing, and several other key markets get completely fucked over from supply shortages.

and china will gladly take over, seeing as more than half of taiwan's computer hardware production now takes place in china anyway.

but of course it's a much better option to not blow up bits of taiwan and keep things the way it is now.

Yes, and letting China subjugate Taiwan and setting them back 100 years as well as murdering a few million citizens is good how?

how is that the case ? china isn't going to murder a few million citizens for fun, just like china wouldn't realistically blow up taiwan's infrastructure when the shit really hits the fan.

why is it that people constantly exaggerate all the evil things that china is going to do to taiwan ?

you're also forgetting that the world is actually against taiwan's independence, no one with a tad bit of common sense will support it. only bleeding heart liberals who don't know better would. it does no one any good except for those in power i.e the taiwanese administration at the time.

i've said this time and time again, taiwan's independence is a great way to get some votes and get into power, otherwise it's as useful as a plastic glow in the dark peanut.

If Taiwan was a commie country where thousands of people were disappeared & shot

just like how in the US thousands of school shootings occur every hour right ?

any more stereotypes ?

and tens of thousands more were sent into gulags and slave labour camps,

oh wait there's more it seems.. again, stereotypes backed up with ignorance and applying standards to china that shouldn't be applied in the first place.

and they engaged in military posturing and all the other shit which China is doing, I'd be all for nuking them as well.

time to nuke the US, UK and Russia then.

stupid argument, not to mention hypocritical. when the military posturing suits you it's fine, when it doesnt.. let's nuke em' ?

on one hand you're preaching moral justice, yet at the flick of the wrist you're willing to nuke civilians of the given "evil" regime for the interests of a few ?

[AniThyng]

but realistically China isn't going to bloody reannex taiwan FFS!

eliminating them also seems to involve eliminating a whole chunk of ordinary chinese as well, i'm sure we can see the problem here? if you accept they have no say over the actions of thier oppresive regime, but yet you will kill them for its actions?

i mean if you talk a surgical strike to capture the central commitee, that's one thing, but fucking nuking beijing in toto?

[Rogue 9]

just like how in the US thousands of school shootings occur every hour right ?

any more stereotypes ?

Tiananmen Square. The Hundred Flowers campaign. The Cultural Revolution. The Great Leap Forward. I could go on. And, as many on this board will tell you, I am not a bleeding-heart liberal.

[frigidmagi]

you're also forgetting that the world is actually against taiwan's independence, no one with a tad bit of common sense will support it. only bleeding heart liberals who don't know better would. it does no one any good except for those in power i.e the taiwanese administration at the time.

Yeah that Regan, he always had his heart on his sleeve let me tell you Funny how the Taiwanese Adminstration is elected and Bejing's isn't huh? So gee I guess that means that the Taiwanese government is maybe just a bit more responsive to the will of it's citizens. Or least doesn't roll tanks over them. No one back's Taiwan because China has more buying power, this is all about the almighty profit line to them, not what's best for the citizens of Taiwan or China.

stereotypes backed up with ignorance and applying standards to china that shouldn't be applied in the first place.

Talk about ignorance, do you ever I don't know, read what the fucking reports have to say on China?

Chinese authorities do not distinguish between peaceful and violent dissent, or between separatism and international terrorism. The state’s crackdown on Muslim Uighurs has included summary trials and mass sentencing rallies. There have been credible reports of the extensive use of torture and the death penalty.

In 2002, after a trial marred by lack of due process, a court sentenced Tenzin Delek Rinpoche, a locally prominent lama, to death with a two-year suspended sentence. He had been charged with causing explosions and “inciting the separation of the state.” His alleged co-conspirator, Lobsang Dondrup, was executed. Several of Tenzin Delek’s associates remain in prison; close to a hundred others were detained, many for attempting to bring information about the crackdown to the attention of the foreign community. Credible sources report ill-treatment and torture in detention.

China maintains “re-education through labor,” a system of administrative punishment that incarcerates thousands of citizens each year without benefit of judicial review.

Human Rights Watch

In 2001, Amnesty International reported that prisoners suffer widespread torture. Beijing officials dismissed this report as "groundless."

And then there's forced abortions. Now I don't care if you're pro-choice or not, forcing a women to have an abortion is disgusting. It ranks right up there with rape in my eyes.

Index no: ASA 17/052/2004
Date: 08/10/2004

China: Protester against forced abortion sent to prison camp

Fifteen years ago, Mao Hengfeng was coerced into undergoing an abortion in the seventh month of her pregnancy. Since that date she has protested tirelessly about what happened to her. Information leaked out early this week from China that she has now been sent to a labour camp by the police having never had a lawyer or appeared in a court. Reports also indicate that she has been tortured and severely beaten.

According to information from the New York based NGO, Human Rights in China, Mao Hengfeng, was dismissed from her job at a soap factory in 1988 in Shanghai when she became pregnant for the second time. For an urban woman to have more than one child is against the country's family planning laws. Mao refused to have an abortion, and she was detained in a psychiatric hospital and injected with medication. Despite this, she managed to continue her pregnancy and gave birth to her second daughter.

Mao appealed under the China's labour law against her dismissal from her job. During this time she became pregnant a third time. When she was seven months pregnant she was told that she would get her job back if she had an abortion, and against her will the pregnancy was terminated. However the court ruled against her anyway, saying the factory had a right to dismiss her since she had violated the Chinese family planning policy.

Mao has protested against the ruling, the coerced abortion and the treatment she suffered at the hands of the police ever since. Both she and her daughters, who are under 18 years of age, have been detained several times. Mao has also been forcibly confined in psychiatric units and undergone shock therapy.

Amnesty International has just learnt that Mao Hengfeng, in April this year, was sent to a labour camp to undergo 18 months of "re-education through labour", without charge or trial. Amnesty International fears that the torture and ill-treatment may continue.

Due to tight government control of information in China, it is extremely difficult for human rights organizations to undertake independent research on the topic of forced or coerced abortions and sterilizations. However torture and ill-treatment have been reported as a result of China's family planning policies. Local birth quotas play a prominent part in the policy, upheld by stiff penalties and rewards. Women who become pregnant without permission may be punished with heavy fines and dismissed from their jobs. The pressure is often very high and if the woman doesn't obey, officials may resort to violence.

Another horrific case of forced abortion was reported in August this year. 29-year-old Ma Weihua faced drug charges and was forced to have an abortion in police custody so that the judge could sentence her to death "legally". A pregnant women cannot be sentenced to death in China. No more information has come out about Ma's fate since her trial on 23 August. Amnesty International and other NGO's are closely monitoring her case and are concerned for her life.

********

Amnesty International