The New SW Canon

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2004-09-20 04:59pm

BTW, the DVD's are the topmost canon now, and with the Alderaan shield clearly visable, Dorkstar will get even more ridiculous.....

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2004-11-10 03:09am

Where will the last five (or parts of the last five) CW shorts end up, on the canon-scale? Since they will cover things mentioned in the opening crawl...

Will the events be G, while the exact way those events unfold be C? Will the planets people, vehicles, ships etc. be C?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-11-10 07:27am

TV = C!!

Pcm979 · Post by **Pcm979** » 2004-11-10 10:26am

To elaborate on Spanky's rather concise statement, if an event is not in the films or expanded upon by Lucas himself then it's C level canon; However, bits of the C level canon become G level unless later contradicted by the movies or Lucas.

To take the example posed in the OP, the fruit in Ep. 2, although you don't get told it's name in the movie or any details about it, the name assigned to it in the novellisation 'trickles up' and becomes G level; Unless Lucas renames it in Ep. 3 for some reason.

Another example, more pertinant to the CW miniseries would be if Obi or Ani says something like, "Remember that battle on Munnilist?" but doesn't elaborate any further then the events on Munnilist will 'trickle up' into G level, although you have to take it a bit tongue-in-cheek because of the medium.

Otherwise I think everything's status quo, and I certainly hope I haven't made a fool of myself with the above.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2004-11-10 01:34pm

Pcm979 wrote:Another example, more pertinant to the CW miniseries would be if Obi or Ani says something like, "Remember that battle on Munnilist?" but doesn't elaborate any further then the events on Munnilist will 'trickle up' into G level, although you have to take it a bit tongue-in-cheek because of the medium.

So, judging by your example, if the opening scroll mentions Count Dooku kidnapping Palpatine, and the final CW episode shows how this happens, that makes the episode G-canon?

*waits*

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2004-11-10 05:38pm

VT-16 wrote:
Pcm979 wrote:Another example, more pertinant to the CW miniseries would be if Obi or Ani says something like, "Remember that battle on Munnilist?" but doesn't elaborate any further then the events on Munnilist will 'trickle up' into G level, although you have to take it a bit tongue-in-cheek because of the medium.
So, judging by your example, if the opening scroll mentions Count Dooku kidnapping Palpatine, and the final CW episode shows how this happens, that makes the episode G-canon?

*waits*

Nope, you're going backward. If Munnilist is mentioned in ROTS, then the planet itself is canon. Characters mentioning events in G-level canon in an EU medium means nothing. That's that's what the EU is supposed to do.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-11-13 05:35pm

Sorry if this has already been addressed, but do "behind the scenes" stuff (like GL's commentary on the DVD's for example) count as G-Level canon? C-Level? Or "nothing" since they're not "stories" (not in-universe stories of the history of the Star Wars universe anyway)?

Pcm979 · Post by **Pcm979** » 2004-11-13 05:46pm

Anything in the films and from George Lucas (including unpublished internal notes that we might receive from him or from the film production department) is considered "G" canon.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-11-13 05:51pm

ANYTHING? Ok then. Thanks. ; )

The only trouble is Lucas's conflicting statements, but I guess we just take his latest statements over past ones if they contradict...?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-11-13 05:53pm

Kurgan wrote:ANYTHING? Ok then. Thanks. ; )

The only trouble is Lucas's conflicting statements, but I guess we just take his latest statements over past ones if they contradict...?

Ultimately yes, but they still don't override the movies.

So he can call Yoda yellow all he wants...no one is going to believe him other then he's on crack.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-11-14 12:09am

Well, therein it gets tricky. How reasonable is he being?

If he said that Yoda was yellow and in fact wearing green makeup (as part of his cultural heritage of course)... well? ; )

It's silly, but I'm saying, either we can freely ignore his comments, take them with a certain grain of salt, or assume they are true, unless "contradicted by the films."

I mean, his dialouge is just dialouge right?

Here are a few examples I'm thinking of specifically:

Stormtroopers are clones. <--- contradicted by the films right?
We've had the arguments made that they are different heights and have different voices. But it could be explained that not all the clones are of Jango, or the stock was modified genetically sometime in the decades since, or that non-clones are shuffled into the ranks.

The Dark Side is stronger. <---- Yoda could be spouting BS, not giving Luke the whole story on account of wanting to give him confidence, or Yoda could honestly simply not have all the facts. After all Yoda believed that one couldn't come back from the Dark Side (thus implying that Anakin couldn't be turned back).

I don't have an easy solution to this idea, I'm just trying to understand a way that it could be understood and workable (if such a thing is possible).

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2004-11-14 06:31am

Nope, you're going backward. If Munnilist is mentioned in ROTS, then the planet itself is canon. Characters mentioning events in G-level canon in an EU medium means nothing. That's that's what the EU is supposed to do.

I´m not talking about characters in EU mentioning movie trivia, I´m talking about events mentioned in a movie being shown in EU.

Edit: Oh, ok then.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-11-14 07:15am

Kurgan wrote:Well, therein it gets tricky. How reasonable is he being?

If he said that Yoda was yellow and in fact wearing green makeup (as part of his cultural heritage of course)... well? ; )

It's silly, but I'm saying, either we can freely ignore his comments, take them with a certain grain of salt, or assume they are true, unless "contradicted by the films."

I mean, his dialouge is just dialouge right?

Here are a few examples I'm thinking of specifically:

Stormtroopers are clones. <--- contradicted by the films right?
We've had the arguments made that they are different heights and have different voices. But it could be explained that not all the clones are of Jango, or the stock was modified genetically sometime in the decades since, or that non-clones are shuffled into the ranks.

The Dark Side is stronger. <---- Yoda could be spouting BS, not giving Luke the whole story on account of wanting to give him confidence, or Yoda could honestly simply not have all the facts. After all Yoda believed that one couldn't come back from the Dark Side (thus implying that Anakin couldn't be turned back).

I don't have an easy solution to this idea, I'm just trying to understand a way that it could be understood and workable (if such a thing is possible).

Okay...his stuff has to be proven.

If you want to hurt yourself by re-examining everything consider this.

One coiuld literally say that George Lucas does not exist in the same capacity that Gene Roddenberry does not exist and that their words are supplimentry to their worlds.

The reason the movies remain number one and have to be directly contradicted by the movies and not by them, is just that fact alone. Their words, notes and commentarys are like the novels...supplimentry to the movie, not primary.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-11-14 08:15am

Kurgan wrote:If he said that Yoda was yellow and in fact wearing green makeup (as part of his cultural heritage of course)... well? ; )

Then effectively he's sodding green!

Stormtroopers are clones. <--- contradicted by the films right?
We've had the arguments made that they are different heights and have different voices. But it could be explained that not all the clones are of Jango, or the stock was modified genetically sometime in the decades since, or that non-clones are shuffled into the ranks.

It gets harder and harder to explain. Certainly, a certain percentage could be holdovers from the Clone era, but the percentage should get smaller and smaller.

The Dark Side is stronger. <---- Yoda could be spouting BS, not giving Luke the whole story on account of wanting to give him confidence, or Yoda could honestly simply not have all the facts. After all Yoda believed that one couldn't come back from the Dark Side (thus implying that Anakin couldn't be turned back).

Or maybe he just has a totally different conception of "stronger." We, being scientifically minded and not worry too much about delicate philosophies, tend to relate Strength to Observable Feats. Such as the legends of Sith being powerful enough to rip cores out of suns. Or who can beat who in a Lightsaber Duel. But he might be meaning a different kind of strength ... more a inner, mental one that's hard to evaluate, and I suppose that's an area where the Light Side user would have the advantage. It does take a certain kind of discipline to have power and insist on yourself being not a Despot, not a Ruler, not even an Equal in some senses, but a Servant.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-11-14 02:54pm

Ghost Rider wrote:
Kurgan wrote:Well, therein it gets tricky. How reasonable is he being?

If he said that Yoda was yellow and in fact wearing green makeup (as part of his cultural heritage of course)... well? ; )

It's silly, but I'm saying, either we can freely ignore his comments, take them with a certain grain of salt, or assume they are true, unless "contradicted by the films."

I mean, his dialouge is just dialouge right?

Here are a few examples I'm thinking of specifically:

Stormtroopers are clones. <--- contradicted by the films right?
We've had the arguments made that they are different heights and have different voices. But it could be explained that not all the clones are of Jango, or the stock was modified genetically sometime in the decades since, or that non-clones are shuffled into the ranks.

The Dark Side is stronger. <---- Yoda could be spouting BS, not giving Luke the whole story on account of wanting to give him confidence, or Yoda could honestly simply not have all the facts. After all Yoda believed that one couldn't come back from the Dark Side (thus implying that Anakin couldn't be turned back).

I don't have an easy solution to this idea, I'm just trying to understand a way that it could be understood and workable (if such a thing is possible).
Okay...his stuff has to be proven.

If you want to hurt yourself by re-examining everything consider this.

One coiuld literally say that George Lucas does not exist in the same capacity that Gene Roddenberry does not exist and that their words are supplimentry to their worlds.

The reason the movies remain number one and have to be directly contradicted by the movies and not by them, is just that fact alone. Their words, notes and commentarys are like the novels...supplimentry to the movie, not primary.

I'm not planning to pull a DarkStar and claim or imply that Lucas's words are the only "real" Star Wars (even if that were true, it would be based on interpretations of his intent which are... open to interpretation since we can't read his thoughts!), rather I just wondered if, his words actually are considered part of G-Level canon officially. That at least sets the bar on how much stock we should put (if any) into what he says about his works.

The other trouble is, are we supposed to take direct quotes from interviews made 20 years ago on the same level as DVD-commentary, etc? It's one huge headache.

I see what you're saying though. His words are not the movies themselves. They are interepretations of the movies, which may change (knowing Lucas) which may have more credibility than say MY interpretations or Saxton's interpretations or Poe's or Darkstar's or anyone's, because Lucas himself created the stories and knows his own intent. Then again, we only know what he says, not what he's thinking, so there's a huge possibility to misinterpret, yes, yes, yes, I know.

The whole "he doesn't exist in his own universe" sounds like a philosophical question. Doesn't exist as a character, or as a god, or whatever? I don't want to get into that either, but I suppose at least in the case of Roddenberry, we could theorize that he was a real person living on Earth (the same Earth of the Trekverse). But then again I guess we need not assume that either, because otherwise wouldnt' someone at somepoint in a Trek show go "Hey, I just realized something, this guy in the late 20th century made TV show and some movies that were about people just like us doing stuff like we're doing now!" Heh, fun to think about, but doesn't get you anywhere!

Anyway, not wanting to debate it, only wishing to know how this Tastee man's Holocron addresses it, which was answered. ; )

Gorefiend · Post by **Gorefiend** » 2004-11-27 03:35am

Hmm….. personally I have always takes marvel comics not to been canon unless they were reinforced by later evidences. They just messed to much up. Otherwise I take things by publishing date, the newer it is the more likely it is the right thing.

Just like Zahn placing the Clonewars much earlier. Zahn properly just didn’t get told the right years or they did not know themselves by the time. With the new evidence we just have to assume it all took time a bit more recent.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2004-12-08 02:49am

Pcm979 wrote:Another example, more pertinant to the CW miniseries would be if Obi or Ani says something like, "Remember that battle on Munnilist?" but doesn't elaborate any further then the events on Munnilist will 'trickle up' into G level, although you have to take it a bit tongue-in-cheek because of the medium.

Why? Mentioning it in the movie makes automatically G level the fact that there was a battle on Muunlist. However, in my opinion, the description of the battle (from other sources than GL) remains C level, just like 95% of the ICS books are C.
He used that "trickle up" only for the names of seen but unnamed items in the movies. (If an author (on his own) says its taste is just like that of an apple, it will not be G, despite the item was seen.) Or are there quotes I have overlooked?

A question: What to do, if a C description of a thing contradicts with the G (other than the movie) level (and none of them contradicts the movie)?

Pcm979 · Post by **Pcm979** » 2004-12-08 02:58am

Just doing my poor best to explain it.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2004-12-08 09:05am

G-canon applies to the movies and Lucas´ own words, I believe? If so, there´s no question about it.

C-canon is everything else that fits in continuity-wise.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2004-12-08 09:37am

As I understand, yes.
The (current) movies are the only sources that are "true" level (EDIT: G resources). In every other cases the level means only that the things in it start from that level. So, G level resources are the earlier versions of the movies, the screenplays, the interviews and notes from Lucas plus the official names of items seen.
Even the ANH novelisation belongs 'only' to level C. (I am quite sad about it.)
I asked whether older sources from Lucas can belong to S (Hobbie's speeder crashing to Veer's walker) or N (the early scripts) level, but I have not received an answer yet. Maybe I never will.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2004-12-08 09:59am

I believe with the films, it´s the newest versions that override the older.

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2004-12-08 07:14pm

VT-16 wrote:I believe with the films, it´s the newest versions that override the older.

That's right. Which is why Darkstar went on his rampage saying the in the SE the Alderaan Shield had "disappeared"

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-12-10 02:11pm

Right, and if he'd play with the brightness/contrast on his DVD captures, he'd see that the shield hasn't been "removed." Either it was always there and thus is STILL THERE or it never existed, from visual evidence alone.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-12-11 08:42am

The Original Nex wrote:
VT-16 wrote:I believe with the films, it´s the newest versions that override the older.
That's right. Which is why Darkstar went on his rampage saying the in the SE the Alderaan Shield had "disappeared"

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2004-12-13 09:46am

Hmmm, got the old noggin going just now. If a vehicle or planet or ship etc. got mentioned in a film, but never seen, would depictions of said object in EU be part of C- or G-canon? For instance, the "Rand Ecliptic" ship mentioned in an ANH cut-scene.