How good are mines?

Dark Primus · Post by **Dark Primus** » 2004-11-14 01:43pm

Example what if an large Imperial fleet would try to retake Coruscant from New Republic and the planet's orbit is covered by mines similar way as in "Star by Star".
How effective would the mines be?

Can you simply blast through them with thousands of turbolaser shots creating a opening for the fleet to use?
Are mines hard to detect?
Can you let the fighters, bombers, missile boats fire proton torpedoes and concussion missiles into the minefield and detonate them in the middle of it, would it make a difference?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-11-14 01:49pm

Mines suck in terms of spacial combat.

They have to massed in near billions are the contested zone unless one can create specfic choke point to force the enemy to enter the said mine field.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2004-11-14 02:01pm

The thing that makes mines so dangerous is that they're hard to find. They either blow you up without warning, or they bog you down trying to clear them while other weapons such as artillery are brought to bare. In space mines don't have anywhere to hide barring somekind of cloak. In the Star Wars universe cloaks are double blind, so a starship would have to physically touch a mine to set it off. That setup would require so many mines that simplying building a fleet of Star Destroyers would be more cost effective. If they are not cloaked, then they could be easily seen and shot.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-11-14 02:09pm

Well in X-Wing game series some mines are in fact 360 degree weapon platforms that fire on enemy/neutral(hostile) ships. in XWA there's traditional mines that basically good for nothing (except target practice)

FOG3 · Post by **FOG3** » 2004-11-14 03:13pm

It should probably also be pointed out that Jango's Firespray carries a "Naval Minelayer" to the rear which we saw were rather nasty buggers in the GT range weren't they?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-11-14 03:23pm

FOG3 wrote:It should probably also be pointed out that Jango's Firespray carries a "Naval Minelayer" to the rear which we saw were rather nasty buggers in the GT range weren't they?

The Seismic mines?

190 MT.

And also for best against pursuers or ground combat.

Techno_Union · Post by **Techno_Union** » 2004-11-14 04:01pm

Ghost Rider wrote:
The Seismic mines?

190 MT.

And also for best against pursuers or ground combat.

IIRC, the mines were 12GT and the Concussion missiles were 190MT.

Mad · Post by **Mad** » 2004-11-14 04:05pm

Ghost Rider wrote:
FOG3 wrote:It should probably also be pointed out that Jango's Firespray carries a "Naval Minelayer" to the rear which we saw were rather nasty buggers in the GT range weren't they?
The Seismic mines?

190 MT.

And also for best against pursuers or ground combat.

The seismic mines were like 10 GT. The missiles were 190 MT.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-11-14 04:15pm

Mad wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:
FOG3 wrote:It should probably also be pointed out that Jango's Firespray carries a "Naval Minelayer" to the rear which we saw were rather nasty buggers in the GT range weren't they?
The Seismic mines?

190 MT.

And also for best against pursuers or ground combat.
The seismic mines were like 10 GT. The missiles were 190 MT.

D'oh!

Thanks

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2004-11-14 05:39pm

Mines are relatively small and can rely entirely on passive systems, which makes them harder to detect. The primary idea of a minefield is not to destroy an enemy or cause large amounts of casualties, however. It is to slow down the enemy. That idea works just as well in SW.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2004-11-14 05:47pm

nightmare wrote:Mines are relatively small and can rely entirely on passive systems, which makes them harder to detect. The primary idea of a minefield is not to destroy an enemy or cause large amounts of casualties, however. It is to slow down the enemy. That idea works just as well in SW.

But not in the vastness of space since even a simple blackdrop check would revel mines or simply *pinging* for them much like we do with mines in the ground... except the mines in space have nothing to hide in besides emtpyness

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2004-11-14 05:50pm

how well would the galaxy quest mine feild work?

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2004-11-14 06:40pm

In the X-Wing game series, I remember 3 types of mines:

Class A mine: Equipped with a laser cannon, can fire in every direction.

Class B mine: Equipped with a ion cannon, can fire into every direction.

Class C mine: Equipped with a laser cannon that can fire into every direction, and a homing missile that will target the attacker a split-scond before the mine is destroyed.

President Sharky · Post by **President Sharky** » 2004-11-14 10:24pm

To protect a planet from an invading force, mines should be an effective deterrent if massed densely enough, as they were in Star by Star. In the Battle of Coruscant, the Vong were seriously delayed and suffered heavy casualties because of the minefield surrounding the planet. Anti-warship mines would probably be of considerable size and firepower, in addition, they're all smart mines, capable of reading IFF readings and attacking specified ships.

In Destiny's Way mines were used very effectively in attacking a Yuuzhan Vong fleet with the use of a special Interdictor mine. Thus, the YV fleet was pulled out of hyperspace (at the choke point of a hyperlane just outside the system they were trying to escape), and not given time to raise its defences. Caught off guard, hundreds of Vong ships were wiped out by tens of thousands of mines. Mind you, these mines were supposed to fill up entire freighters, so they must have been quite large and capable of housing many gigatons, perhaps even teratons of firepower.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-11-14 10:36pm

Mines capable of constricting galactic commerce and travel are simply ridiculous, and are yet another example of how much of the NJO can be ignored at will.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-11-14 11:00pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Mines capable of constricting galactic commerce and travel are simply ridiculous, and are yet another example of how much of the NJO can be ignored at will.

It wasn't ridiculous- it was just a LOT OF MINES. Enough to have several layers covering the planet. You'd expect that from people who can build Death Stars.

Furthermore, the mines did have engines. Remember the peace brigade freighter that tried to run through the minefield? A good dozen mines fired up their engines and homed in on the freighter, blowing out the bridge. These were 'smart' mines. Plus they were controlled from an orbital station.

In Destiny's Way, it only worked because they were in the Deep Core- there was only one hyperspace route in or out.

They put an Interdictor and a minefield in that hyperspace route. The result? The Vong fleet was pulled out of hyperspace on top of the minefield. Ow. Makes sense.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2004-11-14 11:28pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Mines capable of constricting galactic commerce and travel are simply ridiculous, and are yet another example of how much of the NJO can be ignored at will.

I seem to recall from one of the books an EM mine of some sort that exploded when ships came out of hyperspace. This would be useful to some extend mining areas where traffic is known to exit hyperspace, but I think it's usesfulness against fleet formations would be pretty minimal. Fleets would not revert to realspace in predictable places, and freighter skippers would learn quite quickly to simply randomize their exit points for security and simply absorb the cost of extra travel at sublight.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2004-11-15 12:03am

A better idea for a mine would be simply dumping a missile with enough intelligence to go after an enemy after it's been detected.

Think about it: Jump into a system, and you instantly have a hundred warheads targeted at you and approaching...

It'd still require relative proximity, though.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-11-15 12:16am

Praxis wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Mines capable of constricting galactic commerce and travel are simply ridiculous, and are yet another example of how much of the NJO can be ignored at will.
It wasn't ridiculous- it was just a LOT OF MINES. Enough to have several layers covering the planet. You'd expect that from people who can build Death Stars.

Furthermore, the mines did have engines. Remember the peace brigade freighter that tried to run through the minefield? A good dozen mines fired up their engines and homed in on the freighter, blowing out the bridge. These were 'smart' mines. Plus they were controlled from an orbital station.

In Destiny's Way, it only worked because they were in the Deep Core- there was only one hyperspace route in or out.

They put an Interdictor and a minefield in that hyperspace route. The result? The Vong fleet was pulled out of hyperspace on top of the minefield. Ow. Makes sense.

Maybe you should pay attention. I'm talking about such hits as "they've mined the Whatever Way hyperlane - there's no way to get through to that sector!" This kind of shit happened throughout the NJO and its simply absurd.

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2004-11-15 12:30am

So what you're saying is it's stupid because they could just plot a longer route to take?

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-11-15 01:36am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Praxis wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Mines capable of constricting galactic commerce and travel are simply ridiculous, and are yet another example of how much of the NJO can be ignored at will.
It wasn't ridiculous- it was just a LOT OF MINES. Enough to have several layers covering the planet. You'd expect that from people who can build Death Stars.

Furthermore, the mines did have engines. Remember the peace brigade freighter that tried to run through the minefield? A good dozen mines fired up their engines and homed in on the freighter, blowing out the bridge. These were 'smart' mines. Plus they were controlled from an orbital station.

In Destiny's Way, it only worked because they were in the Deep Core- there was only one hyperspace route in or out.

They put an Interdictor and a minefield in that hyperspace route. The result? The Vong fleet was pulled out of hyperspace on top of the minefield. Ow. Makes sense.
Maybe you should pay attention. I'm talking about such hits as "they've mined the Whatever Way hyperlane - there's no way to get through to that sector!" This kind of shit happened throughout the NJO and its simply absurd.

It wasn't "There's no way to get to that sector", it's "We have to plot several other hyperjumps to get there, making the trip five times longer".

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2004-11-15 11:36am

SPOOFE wrote:A better idea for a mine would be simply dumping a missile with enough intelligence to go after an enemy after it's been detected.

Think about it: Jump into a system, and you instantly have a hundred warheads targeted at you and approaching...

It'd still require relative proximity, though.

Such mines are in the X-Wing games.

Mr Bean wrote:
nightmare wrote:Mines are relatively small and can rely entirely on passive systems, which makes them harder to detect. The primary idea of a minefield is not to destroy an enemy or cause large amounts of casualties, however. It is to slow down the enemy. That idea works just as well in SW.
But not in the vastness of space since even a simple blackdrop check would revel mines or simply *pinging* for them much like we do with mines in the ground... except the mines in space have nothing to hide in besides emtpyness

Naturally. But their consequential destruction will also serve as a warning system of an incoming attack. Using mines in open space is, of course, unworkable. But in-system.. natural chokepoints.. bases in asteroid fields etc, is another story.

Besides, they have mines and minelayers. So obviously there is a use for them, as limited as it may be in galactic warfare.

Praxis wrote:It wasn't "There's no way to get to that sector", it's "We have to plot several other hyperjumps to get there, making the trip five times longer".

Which serves the primary use of minefields, slowing down the enemy. I would guess that IP means it is silly to mine a hyperlane since it would take untold amounts of mines to make even a small portion of space unfareable.

And that's true, though we might speculate that there is an "optimal" route along a lane which gives a relatively focused area of space you could fill with mines, forcing the enemy to divert their route around it and consequntially slow down - or stop to clear the minefield. The key factor being the size of the area that needs to be filled.

I haven't read much NJO even though I have some of the books available. If the claims in the series are that mines completely stop a route in deep space.. well, that's either ignorant writers (or there is an unknown factor at play which we can't take into calculation because of the WYSIWYG approach to SoD, and hence flies out the window, back to silly writers).

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2004-11-15 12:08pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Maybe you should pay attention. I'm talking about such hits as "they've mined the Whatever Way hyperlane - there's no way to get through to that sector!" This kind of shit happened throughout the NJO and its simply absurd.

Maybe you should pay attention to the book.
They were dovin basal mines IE) Inderdictors.

Duken · Post by **Duken** » 2004-11-15 12:25pm

Wicked Pilot wrote:I seem to recall from one of the books an EM mine of some sort that exploded when ships came out of hyperspace. This would be useful to some extend mining areas where traffic is known to exit hyperspace, but I think it's usesfulness against fleet formations would be pretty minimal. Fleets would not revert to realspace in predictable places, and freighter skippers would learn quite quickly to simply randomize their exit points for security and simply absorb the cost of extra travel at sublight.

One of the X-Wing books (Wrath Squadron?), if we are thinking of the same mine. Grav generator, emp bomb, and a hypercomm.

gamesguy · Post by **gamesguy** » 2004-11-15 01:58pm

Duken wrote:
Wicked Pilot wrote:I seem to recall from one of the books an EM mine of some sort that exploded when ships came out of hyperspace. This would be useful to some extend mining areas where traffic is known to exit hyperspace, but I think it's usesfulness against fleet formations would be pretty minimal. Fleets would not revert to realspace in predictable places, and freighter skippers would learn quite quickly to simply randomize their exit points for security and simply absorb the cost of extra travel at sublight.
One of the X-Wing books (Wrath Squadron?), if we are thinking of the same mine. Grav generator, emp bomb, and a hypercomm.

its called an empion mine, very expensive, completely useless if you are expecting it, you can simply send an asteroid with a hyperdrive, or a drone fight through first and set off the mine.

and no you cannot have a minefield of them, because they disable everything around them when they detonate.