Prequel Dueling and OT Dueling

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-11-15 03:36pm

There is a distinct difference between the various styles of Jedi lightsaber dueling that we see in the prequel era and the OT era.

In the prequel era the lightsaber dueling is beautiful, graceful, acrobatic, the Jedi take every advantage of what the Force can do for them when fighting. For the best exampled look to TPM and not AOTC as the duels in AOTC are much shorter and brief. In TPM look at Obi Wan, Maul and Qui-Gon. Obi Wan especially is flashy and jumps around alot, whipping his blade around and moving like a dervish. Very impressive.

Qui-Gon is older and more experienced but his moves are no less fancy and full of their own flourished and beauty.

Maul is just brutal and direct. His strikes trap, turn, and stab at his enemies. His brutal direct style, including physical attacks (Which Qui-Gon himself also includes in his repetoire when he backhands Maul off the catwalk) which eventually overcomes a Jedi Master and kills him.

Now I have not read the novelization but from what I gathered from those that have read it Qui-Gon was considered a master swordsmen, one of the best duelists among the Jedi but was past his physical prime.

Obi Wan is also defeated (though he seems to give Maul more trouble near the end)

Let's assume that Maul's brutal intense style is indicative of the Sith who have been practicing killing Jedi for generations.

The novels and the website both say that a lightsaber duel in anger has not occurred for thousands of years until TPM. Jedi lightsaber training slowly evolved into a ritualistic style, flashy and acrobatic because none of their foes wielded lightsabers. The primary weapon of their foe was the blaster to which the Form III lightsaber style was designed specifically to defeat (Obi Wan's style in AOTC after abandoning Form IV the showier flashier form he was so good at in TPM)

The Sith on the other hand were crafting their lightsaber form to brutral perfection as we see in Maul and it looks from the trailer we will also see Palpatine wield as well.

The only Jedi that wields a form equivalent to the Sith style is Mace Windu (Form VII) So this shows that by the time of the purge the Jedi are not ready to take on the Sith. Their style is too flowery, too ritualistic, too beautiful. They will get powned in one on one.

Luke Skywalker comes along and his style in the OT is brutal, direct, not very pretty. In fact he looks like he is wielding a baseball bat instead of a saber at times. Yet it is the prefect style to counter Vader and eventually win.

So can this disparity in style be explained by the fact that the Jedi in the prequel era have never really had to lightsaber duel before and were like a ceremonial guard confronting commandoes brutally trained in their weapons? Is Luke a throwback to what the styles must have been like during the Hyperspace and Sith wars when Jedi lightsaber duels were more common? I assume Yoda taught Luke how to duel so was it the ultimate realization from Yoda that they could no longer go back to the fancier forms for now?

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-11-15 03:48pm

I always remember being told that Luke was half trained in comprasion to Jedi of the Prequels. However Luke has an advantage in the fact that this isn't theory to him, it's life or death. He might not have had the chance to study a style that had thousands of years to evole, but he had direct battlefield experience to draw on. Battlefield Experience will always trump something learned in a study hall. Luke's sytle doesn't appear to be learned, it seems to be something he developed straight from his experiences to me.

Honestly I was more impressed with Maul than with Obi Won or with Qui Gon. If I had been asked to chose someone to teach lightsaber dueling without knowledge of their moral leaning, I would have picked Maul.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-11-15 03:48pm

Well do know Styles I, II and VII are both aggressive and used by only few Jedi, so this seems to support your theorie. BTW would this the style that Yoda teached Luke was VII.

PS: Style I was developed from vibroblade combat, style II was Dooku's style and style VII was aggressive style developed by Mace Windu (for those do not know this).
PPS. To me it's seem that KOTOR Jedi are using either style I or style II

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-11-15 03:53pm

frigidmagi wrote:I always remember being told that Luke was half trained in comprasion to Jedi of the Prequels. However Luke has an advantage in the fact that this isn't theory to him, it's life or death. He might not have had the chance to study a style that had thousands of years to evole, but he had direct battlefield experience to draw on. Battlefield Experience will always trump something learned in a study hall. Luke's sytle doesn't appear to be learned, it seems to be something he developed straight from his experiences to me.

Honestly I was more impressed with Maul than with Obi Won or with Qui Gon. If I had been asked to chose someone to teach lightsaber dueling without knowledge of their moral leaning, I would have picked Maul.

Given that the actor who played Maul did teach Liam and Ewan their lightsaber routines, I'd say you made an excellent choice.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-11-15 03:57pm

This kind of reminds me of what happened to the samurai sytles. Once the warring states period ended and before the Meji Restortation the sytles got more flashly, more concerned with killing on the draw than with actual combat...

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-11-15 04:03pm

Oh, and Form VII? Just how many forms are there, anyway?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-11-15 04:04pm

Rogue 9 wrote:Oh, and Form VII? Just how many forms are there, anyway?

7

Bob Brown had a page up.

And TF.N still does.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-11-15 04:39pm

*Searches TF.net* Hmmmmmmmm... Not seeing. *Searches more.*

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-11-15 04:41pm

Rogue 9 wrote:*Searches TF.net* Hmmmmmmmm... Not seeing. *Searches more.*

They used to

Still here's a link

Combat forms

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-11-15 04:45pm

Bob Brown's Page gave me a whole new appreciation for the lightsaber dueling we see in the movies. It isn't just a bunch a guys whomping on each other with glowing sticks.

A quick and dirty run down of the styles off the top my head

Form I - sword play. Its just what you would expect from medieval swordsman ship, not suited for deflecting blasters and really not well suited for lightsaber combat. The first form developed when Jedi wielded swords.

Form II - Dooku's Style - Fencing. A perfect form for lightsaber dueling but rare outside of old masters because it is not suited for deflecting blaster bolts. It is devastating against those not schooled in this form because this form maximizes the moves and uses of the lightsaber against another lightsaber as Doooku showed with great skill in AOTC.

Form III - Obi Wan as of AOTC onward. This form is based around defense. Especially good at deflecting blaster bolts, masters of this form are said to be virtually untouchable by blasters. Obi Wan adopted this form when he concluded that he needed a more defensive oriented form to defeat the offensive Sith form of dueling

Form IV - Yoda, Qui Gon, Obi Wan in TPM. This form emphasizes acrobatic skills and manuevering, using the force to increase physical strength and agility to make you a whirling lightsaber of death. Yoda and Obi Wan really showed the acrobtaic side of this form while Qui Gon displayed a more measured older veteran's take on the form.

Form V - Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker. This form mixes the acrobatics and agility of IV with brute strength. A more 'choppy' style but devastatingly effective. Great for battering down defenses and overwhleming your opponent through brute power.

Form VI - The Diplomat's Style. Not sure what this means but it seems to involve ritualized moves and forms that are illsuited for intense long combat, seems to be designed to keep diplomatic and pacifistic Jedi alive long enough to get the hell out of dodge.

Form VII - Mace Windu (sole practioner) The closest to the Sith style. Maximizes physical brute strength and so aggressive that some thinks it skirts the edges of the dark side.

Hardy · Post by **Hardy** » 2004-11-15 05:40pm

Ghost Rider wrote: Bob Brown had a page up.

http://web.archive.org/web/200304122029 ... sabres.htm

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-11-15 07:45pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
frigidmagi wrote:I always remember being told that Luke was half trained in comprasion to Jedi of the Prequels. However Luke has an advantage in the fact that this isn't theory to him, it's life or death. He might not have had the chance to study a style that had thousands of years to evole, but he had direct battlefield experience to draw on. Battlefield Experience will always trump something learned in a study hall. Luke's sytle doesn't appear to be learned, it seems to be something he developed straight from his experiences to me.

Honestly I was more impressed with Maul than with Obi Won or with Qui Gon. If I had been asked to chose someone to teach lightsaber dueling without knowledge of their moral leaning, I would have picked Maul.
Given that the actor who played Maul did teach Liam and Ewan their lightsaber routines, I'd say you made an excellent choice.

Ray Park taught Liam and Ewan? I thought it was that light-haired fight choreographer guy? Granted, I have only seen a fraction of the behind the scenes vids from the Episode I DVD, but that was my impression. If Park did, then I stand corrected, but it was news to me...

Hardy wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote: Bob Brown had a page up.
http://web.archive.org/web/200304122029 ... sabres.htm

Wow, web pages saved with pics?! Take that Google! Though I see not everything is there (probably too much to ask). Good to see BB's page again though!

PS: Does anyone besides me think that there is a movement afoot by Windu-wankers to make him seem more badass?

First his saber is thought "close to the Dark Side" by some for being almost red. Now his style is "skirting the edges" on the Dark Side and "close to" the Sith Style? LoL. Now all they need to do is have him start wearing black and use Force Lightning!

At least in ROTS we can finally see if all of this Winu-wankery actually amounts to anything... if his reputation as a 'badass' is really deserved.
; )

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2004-11-15 08:50pm

well if memory serves Lucas himself said on the new DVD set that he envisioned that during the OT that the lightsabers were so powerful(not to say that they were stronger than prequel lightsabers) that you had to wield them with two hands. Besides all we really see is Obi-Wan delaying Vader and Luke (who is a novice compared to others) And then for the prequels he wanted to show what the Jedi were capable of in their hey-day. Implying the duels between Vader and Obi-Wan were not that impressive looking as the duels in TPM or AOTC because 1) they are both old and not in their full glory 2) when was the last time that either of them dueled another Jedi or Sith? 3) Vader's fighting skills could have been hampered by many things -his fear of Obi-Wan, after all the last time they met Obi-Wan kicked his ass, so he may have been holding back and testing Obi-Wans abilities with the saber - the fact that he was old - the fact that he was mostly machine might have limited some of his movement - his armor he wore.

not too discount your theories at all but this is just another thing to contemplate.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-11-15 08:53pm

frigidmagi wrote:If I had been asked to chose someone to teach lightsaber dueling without knowledge of their moral leaning, I would have picked Maul.

I wouldn't, his saber style was horrendous. Hell, so was most of the PT era Jedi. If I had to choose someone from SW to teach me saber fighting, it would be Luke. None of this "OMG this Form is, like, a THOUSAND years old!" bullshit. Luke is new to it, same as I would be; we'd both have an opportunity to learn a new style, teach ourselve through training, and this will aid creativity and so on.

I can tell you from my experiences in martial art training, that the whole "This art is so old it MUST be good" attitude is rampant. However, it's use-by date isn't as important as the quality of the teaching. If the teachers suck, then it doesn't matter how impressive the source material is, you're gonna suck yourself unless you train a little independently (something my dojo began to crack down against - they didn't want people doing new and creative applications for particular forms, as there was always a danger of someone getting injured. The end result is that I felt $10 a lesson was being wasted).

In all honestly I will go with Luke and the NJO. The Prequel Jedi haven't struck me as impressive or worthy (except for Qui-gon, but he's dead), so why waste time with the bullshit? Luke may be learning the ropes but then so will I, and he's not an arsehole (like some of the PT Jedi).

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2004-11-15 10:07pm

The appreciation of any of the tactics used in the fights in the PT requires full engagment of Suspension of Disbelief...from a practical standpoint, till you get to go "it must be good and useful because they're the best in the galaxy" the fighting styles frankly molest donkeys.

They look lovely and are about as much practical use as a chocolate fireguard.

White Haven · Post by **White Haven** » 2004-11-15 10:20pm

Sadly, it's a case of 'I don't have to be good, I've got the Force as my ally.' I want to see what someone who learned to be deadly with a blade BEFORE becoming a Jedi can do. (i.e. some EU jedi).

Trogdor · Post by **Trogdor** » 2004-11-15 11:01pm

So the Jedi had 7 styles and the Sith just have one?

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-11-15 11:32pm

Ray Park taught Liam and Ewan? I thought it was that light-haired fight choreographer guy?

Nick Gillard. Fun fact, he's the Nazi in the tank in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusde, the one who gets knocked out by his own periscope as he's laughing at Indy getting the shit kicked out of him.

GeneralTacticus · Post by **GeneralTacticus** » 2004-11-15 11:34pm

Given that there are only supposed to be two at a time, I don't know what the point would be of having formal 'styles' at all; each Sith would presumably develop one that worked for them, possibly emulating the style of a past Sith lord (Okay, for my style, I'll mostly use the one perfected by Darth Vicious, but his defense needs some more work, so I'll take a bit from Darth Bastard as well...)

EDIT: This was in response to Trogdor, btw.

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2004-11-15 11:37pm

The Jedi styles are part of a long and well known tradition. The order is large , famous, and one of the pillars of society. The Sith are secretive and often small. The Jedi Lightsaber forms are the ones that are known. How the Sith classify their styles (and considering that Dooku used form II and Vader V) is unknown. However, unlike Jedi, their primary concern when using lightsabers was beating Jedi, not blaster armed combatents. Their use of more agressive dueling styles is consistent with their aims and inclinations.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-11-15 11:55pm

White Haven wrote:Sadly, it's a case of 'I don't have to be good, I've got the Force as my ally.' I want to see what someone who learned to be deadly with a blade BEFORE becoming a Jedi can do. (i.e. some EU jedi).

It might not matter as much given the description is basically they apply those swings because of the TK behind them.

It's a weird and almost implausible explaination but it is the one the SW universe upholds of why the fighting looks like it's two guys with wiffle ball bats trying to slam each other's head in.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-11-16 12:10am

I think the main reason that Jedi are at a disadvantage in a duel with Sith is that the Sith have been practicing and developing their styles and skills to kill the Jedi for a thousand years. The Jedi have been dueling for fun for a thousand years. Additionally their lightsaber skills also evolved to deal with the primary weapon they faced - blasters. The Sith were focussed on lightsaber dueling and their dark side skills also favor aggressive attacks.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-11-16 06:25am

Stravo wrote:Form VII - Mace Windu (sole practioner) The closest to the Sith style. Maximizes physical brute strength and so aggressive that some thinks it skirts the edges of the dark side.

Depa Billaba Also used Form VII or Vaapad

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-11-16 01:23pm

I wouldn't, his saber style was horrendous. Hell, so was most of the PT era Jedi. If I had to choose someone from SW to teach me saber fighting, it would be Luke. None of this "OMG this Form is, like, a THOUSAND years old!" bullshit. Luke is new to it, same as I would be; we'd both have an opportunity to learn a new style, teach ourselve through training, and this will aid creativity and so on.

I meant out of those 3 Stofsk, I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough in that.

I thought I made my admiration for Luke clear when I said Battlefield Experience Trumps.

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2004-11-16 02:27pm

Imperial Overlord wrote:The Jedi styles are part of a long and well known tradition. The order is large , famous, and one of the pillars of society. The Sith are secretive and often small. The Jedi Lightsaber forms are the ones that are known. How the Sith classify their styles (and considering that Dooku used form II and Vader V) is unknown. However, unlike Jedi, their primary concern when using lightsabers was beating Jedi, not blaster armed combatents. Their use of more agressive dueling styles is consistent with their aims and inclinations.

Remember that both Dooku and Vader recieved their initial training as Jedi, and only later turned to the Dark Side, hence their use of Jedi-developed fighting styles.