Moderator: Vympel
Best not to think too much on that idea. Gives me a headache.brianeyci wrote: I wonder what would happen if they did this too many times. Paradoxes? time travellers running into other time travellers?
For example, what would happen if time travel attempt A failed, which started time travel attempt B, which went to warn time travel attempt A about the trap, which meant that time travel attempt B should never have happened, which meant...
Oy.
Brian
i prefer to ignore that particular bit of trek history. it is stupid. let us not dwell on it.The Nomad wrote:Slightly off-topic: how would we treat the case of the Xeelee, which have been canonically shown to possess acausal time-travel and perpetually self-enhancing time-loops ?
Although I was replying to about someone asking what the federation could do if they were warned in kirk's time. I think they could significantly improve antimatter production if they realised they needed to. Millions is probably more than they need anyway. Maybe ~200 in close proximity to each ship, with some degree of overlap? So maybe 1000 extra torpedos produced per year would be a reasonable amount.Kamakazie Sith wrote:Didn't they just use the Defiant to mine the wormhole? But I agree, unless the entire starfleet participated then that wouldn't be something they could accomplish. An the likelyhood of the entire starfleet participating is very low due to defense concerns from neighbooring races.Darth_Zod wrote:
from everything we've seen on screen, starships only carry at most a few hundred torpedoes. i can't imagine it would be feasible to create millions of antimatter bombs. hell, mining the wormhole at ds9 took them forever to accomplish, and they were just barely able to pull it off.
Tech disparity is still too great. 64MT times 1000 is only three or so blasts from a HTL. So a hundred years production is only a hundred shots from a HTL. While enough to overwhelm a ship of even a couple, once their done blowing their wad, their done.Prozac the Robert wrote:
Although I was replying to about someone asking what the federation could do if they were warned in kirk's time. I think they could significantly improve antimatter production if they realised they needed to. Millions is probably more than they need anyway. Maybe ~200 in close proximity to each ship, with some degree of overlap? So maybe 1000 extra torpedos produced per year would be a reasonable amount.
Since a SD came out of hyperspace and smashed into the SSD, and nothing happened of serious magnitude to the SSD, you'd have to have some pretty big rocks to throw at them. I don't know of much ST tech that'll put fucking huge rocks to warp, or high fractions of C.Heck, they could just accelerate a bunch of asteroids to .99c so that they collided with the incoming wars ships or something. The point is that with that much time and information, they could hardly fail.
Somehow deploy massive time control generators all over the Federation, thus meaning they can't go back?Stark wrote:The Empire has time-control technology; its an integral part of hyperdrives. I'm sure SW-crazies can wank that out to some convoluted stupid plan too.
They're stupid in one way or the other. Either they have no idea what words(Future's End, where timelines are created and destroyed by them, with them not having a clue), or they don't know what the fuck they're doing.Eframepilot wrote:Nitpick: The 29th century Feds are all about controlling changes in the timeline, which would be utterly pointless if time travel just creates new timelines as believed here instead of writing over the old timeline. So the 29th century Feds do believe that time travel can be used as a weapon. Hence the entire concept of a Temporal Cold War, which by the dogma of this forum is totally pointless. So, in fact, it is the Star Wars side that must argue the 29th century Feds are so fucking stupid they don't know what they're talking about.SirNitram wrote:Hrm. This is more or less identical to shit that was defeated way back when I first came to ASVS. How pathetic.
Let's see...
Parallels and Future's End both prove that time travel creates timelines(Unless Alyeska would like to argue that the 29th Century Federation is so fucking stupid it doesn't know what it's talking about, of course.) in ST.
But, since I have debated this in the past with Darth Wong, who did take the position that YES, they ARE that fucking stupid, the point is entirely moot.
Uh... the Xeelee are not part of Trek ( you must confuse with the Xindi... ). I guess I should open a separate thread in OSF...Darth_Zod wrote:i prefer to ignore that particular bit of trek history. it is stupid. let us not dwell on it.The Nomad wrote:Slightly off-topic: how would we treat the case of the Xeelee, which have been canonically shown to possess acausal time-travel and perpetually self-enhancing time-loops ?
This one doesn't work either. After all, every time they intervened to stop a new reality being created they would actually just create another one.SirNitram wrote: There is, however, a third option. It simply assumes they want to minimize 'artificial' branching of the timelines from time travel, for whatever purpose becomes clear over nine hundred years of research into the nature of time.
The Feds clearly need a time travel flatrateSlartibartfast wrote:Maybe the timelines run out of disk space.SirNitram wrote:There is, however, a third option. It simply assumes they want to minimize 'artificial' branching of the timelines from time travel, for whatever purpose becomes clear over nine hundred years of research into the nature of time.
Come again? How does PREVENTING the creation of a new timeline provoke theProzac the Robert wrote:This one doesn't work either. After all, every time they intervened to stop a new reality being created they would actually just create another one.SirNitram wrote: There is, however, a third option. It simply assumes they want to minimize 'artificial' branching of the timelines from time travel, for whatever purpose becomes clear over nine hundred years of research into the nature of time.
Exactly what I was thinking. Let the surviving Fed forces do whatever the hell they want in their parallel universe, It's not gonna do shit to them.Enforcer Talen wrote:why would they bother? assuming time travel changes timelines, the empire remains in control of this one, and doesnt give a damn about parralels.
Because they actually go backwards in time to prevent time travel. If time travel creares new timelines then everytime they attempt to stop one they would just produce another one instead.Batman wrote: Come again? How does PREVENTING the creation of a new timeline provoke the
start of yet another one? Trying to UNDO a new timeline after the fact, certainly, but why would PREVENTING its creation in the first place do so?
Okay. That admittedly doesn't work. I withdraw my objection.Prozac the Robert wrote:Because they actually go backwards in time to prevent time travel. If time travel creares new timelines then everytime they attempt to stop one they would just produce another one instead.Batman wrote: Come again? How does PREVENTING the creation of a new timeline provoke the
start of yet another one? Trying to UNDO a new timeline after the fact, certainly, but why would PREVENTING its creation in the first place do so?
Hi, I don't often pop up on this area of the board, but Lach's point is related to something I had been considering. In Statistical Probabilities, Bashir and the genetically enhanced quartet conclude that the Federation cannot win the war. There only choice is to surrender. When the Federation refuses, they want to give tactical data to the Dominion to ensure a quick defeat with "only" billions dead. No one at any time even hints about using time travel as an escape clause.Lach wrote:" or the Dominion,"
Do you think the federation would use time travel BEFORE they lost to the empire? It would only be used as a last resort, if they failed. They didnt loose to the dominion. If they had lost, who knows?
Which neatly explains why there are hundreds of thousands of these timelines already in existence, as per "Parallels". I don't see why you have trouble grasping this. It took them centuries to determine that a FTL technology which leaves long-term trackable distortions in the fabric of spacetime (so-called "warp signatures") can potentially harm that fabric, and even then only because of one person's activism (which they also rejected until the person demonstrated it for them). I don't see why it's so hard to decide that the Federation is dogmatic about certain things; it seems to be written into the script.Prozac the Robert wrote:This one doesn't work either. After all, every time they intervened to stop a new reality being created they would actually just create another one.SirNitram wrote:There is, however, a third option. It simply assumes they want to minimize 'artificial' branching of the timelines from time travel, for whatever purpose becomes clear over nine hundred years of research into the nature of time.
OK retard, your'e showing the infamous trekkie "limitless" mentalyty that we've seen in this site so many times. If you have a ship in the middle of a battle and you are loosing and then you travel back in time to fix everything, the ship wont get to the previous time with all of it's resources, it will get there weakened by the battle, and also it'll get to a time where the imperial fleet won't be weakened by the battle yet! yo will be sending a damaged ship into a point of the battle where the enemy ships will be on their best shape!Lach wrote:They have the ability. The Empire could NEVER defeat the entire Federation fleet, too many scattered ships to take it entirely out. The remnants would get to a chrono twistin!
The applications to win with time travel are.... well infinite. You could effectively get an ininite amount of recconacinse. You can get all the technology information of the enemy and study it for ultimate critical weaknesses. You can get hyper advanced technology for yourself.... you have ALL the time you need to do anything. The only limit on time is the limit of the life times of those involved but that is not a limit-there are many solutions to that. Go back in time to RIGHT when you were about to start on your work.... pass off the latest version of the notes. Repeat till you have the means to rape the empire. Go to a point where the Empire fleet will be in orbit around a sun.... in the future. Bring a solar detonator. Go back in time.... detonate the sun. There are SO MANY applications for time travel I do not think I need to list them all.
Summation: In the face of the most overwhelming enemy the federation has ever met, they will posses both the desire and the ability to travel through time, thus defeating the enemy.
They never used it against the Dominion, did they? and they put the federation in some serious trouble.Lach wrote:#### except it turns out time travel won't save THAT reality because when you time travel it makes alternate realities.
Ooops...... my friend explained this to me. FORTUNATELY the federation still wins in ALL realitiesHow many times has the federation traveled to parralel universes? Numerously and even though the technology to do so is not well understood they have ALL the time they need to develop it to the point that they do, then go across realities to save that one too!
Final summation: The Empire could never conquer or defeat the Federation in all out war because after the all our war is lost by the federation the REAL war begins-a war where the federation gets infinite do-overs
Do you even understand what "Cannon" is??? it is a way to allow only official sources of information have relevance in the story. If there was not such a thing as cannon, I could write a fanfic where the federation has some sort of super weapon that can turn every enemy ship into stone and claim that it must be part of the story. Cannon is what we use in this forum to allow only official sources to be part of this kind of topics. If you don't like it and you wan't to dream that you are Seven of Nine and that you save the universe, then don't come here. No one asked you to be here.Lach wrote:arguments go.... only canonical sources are legitimate. This poses a problem as almost EVERYTHING star wars is cannon and little star trek is...
Obviously your brain is not included in that sentenceLach wrote:but I'll work with what I have.
Hmmm.... Rome in 2340 B.C......Lach wrote:I'll respond more thoroughly tommorow but.....
I know intimatley how a combustion engine works.
If you dropped me in the year 2340 B.C.-with the co-operation of others so I coul dget the materials I need.... I could build a car. I know how to make a forge to burn hot enough to make steel, I know know how to cast steel. I know how the gear ratios work-I know how to design the neccesary equipment involved.
Drop me in the year 2340 B.C. now, with the help of a Roman City I could build a fully functional car in 10 years.
LOL!! Good call. I didn't even notice the date. I maintain that this guy is simply a goddamn idiot.Thanas wrote:Hmmm.... Rome in 2340 B.C......
Allright, tell me. How do you manage to build a car with the help of a non-existent city?
