Is there anything in Star Trek that can threaten Star Wars?

[SirNitram]

Illuminatus and SirNitram,

Your argument will not stop till you argue the underlying issue. Illuminatus believes that chronology is the most important factor -- newer statements are better or more reliable. SirNitram believes that historical acceptance is the most important factor -- the "old standard" statements are better or more reliable.

You both hate Darkstar, who thought who said what (and not when it was said) was the most important factor. So, you both agree that it is a matter of time but you disagree on which way to go with that.

Not quite. I believe all should be taken into account equally, though the Sansweet quote, as it is a direct answer to how to deal with canonicity, and the most detailed, is obviously one that must be considered carefully. Simple comments like all material is canon have to be considered with other evidence.. Obviously, the statements the Executor are 8km long are wrong!

I don't buy into the 'Oops, new quote, throw everything out' mentality, especially when the Sansweet quote isn't very old. No scientist or historian(Roles we must assume, to analyze SW properly) would ever throw out all previous data in the light of something new. They must create something from all data.

That's the problem.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Yes, the Orions could seduce Moffs, manipulate their way through the empire in order to win.

Hey look how far Xizor got, and he was just one.

[His Divine Shadow]

During the difficult weeks immediately following the debacle at Endor, the problem was all too apparent to the Imperials themselves. In an absolutist state, power must be wielded absolutely. But by whom? It became increasingly apparent that succession to the throne was something the Emperor, so circumspect in everything else, had never seriously prepared for. When the Emperor was killed at the Battle of Endor, the speed with which the Empire disintergrated, amazed even some Alliance strategists. Obviously something was going very wrong in the Empire.

If the Emperor had not left a designated successor, and there was no constitutional procedure for one, then those with ambition felt they must make a new Emperor from amongst themselves.

To a degree unseen since Xim the Despot, Palpatine had created a state that simply couldn't function without him. It was no accident that the Empire was collapsing around his grave. No one could doubt that his fondest wish had been been that, if he should fall, then the universe would burn on his funeral pyre. And burn it would after Darth Vader, Lord of the Sith, its master to his doom.

(thanks to Matt Trias for providing it)

There you have it. Internal political design of the Empire doomed it to destruction without Palpatine, and that, as I see it, was the foremost reason for its collapse.

Frankly, I take that story as more objective then the words of an ambitious Grand Admiral who did not use the Force who'd been absent in the Unknown Regions when Palpatine died and the Empire collapsed anyway. He never returned except to assume command and set up his own Empire.

I say they are both correct.

[Ender]

Taking one or two canon quotes and demanding they be the only truth is as bad as Darkstar.

Other quotes tell us 'Closer to the movies, more true'. So, we must re-order Canon thusly.

Movies.
Novelizations.
Scripts.
Radio Dramas.

ICS/Visual Dictionary.
Novels/Comics.
Essential Guides.
WEG.

Basedon the Denning quote that the authors use the essential guides and the Ecyclopedia for reference in writing teir ovels, shouldn't those e above the novels/comics?

[Ender]

Yes, the Orions could seduce Moffs, manipulate their way through the empire in order to win.

Hey look how far Xizor got, and he was just one.

Xizor didn't seduce any moffs.

[Ender]

who's to say that there weren't a few more. hell, maybe it could be reverse engineered.

From what?

[The Yosemite Bear]

Nope but he did use his pheremones to peddle influence, and build up a lot of trade, starting from nothing. A cartel of Orions would have the same powers of seduction, have greater numbers and be of the right gender to effectivly influence Palpatine's govenors and generals.

[SirNitram]

Taking one or two canon quotes and demanding they be the only truth is as bad as Darkstar.

Other quotes tell us 'Closer to the movies, more true'. So, we must re-order Canon thusly.

Movies.
Novelizations.
Scripts.
Radio Dramas.

ICS/Visual Dictionary.
Novels/Comics.
Essential Guides.
WEG.

Basedon the Denning quote that the authors use the essential guides and the Ecyclopedia for reference in writing teir ovels, shouldn't those e above the novels/comics?

I've never seen this quote. Could you post it? I always thought the Guides were just written after the fact.

[Spartan]

SirNitram wrote:

Taking one or two canon quotes and demanding they be the only truth is as bad as Darkstar.

Other quotes tell us 'Closer to the movies, more true'. So, we must re-order Canon thusly.

Movies.
Novelizations.
Scripts.
Radio Dramas.

ICS/Visual Dictionary.
Novels/Comics.
Essential Guides.
WEG.

To the best of my knowledge there is no hiearchy to official materials. Newer sources can not overide olders sources, and older sources can not take precedence merely because thery are older either.

Now like observation one could say that sources that have actually observations eg. pictures, or illustrations of objects should rank higher than text; but we have no official Lucasfilm position other than the fact that all Lucasfilm endorsed products reflect some truth about the SW universe.

So actually you have missed some official sources: trading cards, CCG, toys pakaging, video games materials (such as box art, plotlines etc, box summaries, etc.)

I have a question though, deleted scences are not canon, but shouldn't they be official if not contradicted by the canon version of the film?

[Illuminatus Primus]

I take it with His Divine Shadow. Obviously the New Republic historian who wrote the account of the Galactic Civil War (the Essential Chronology) and the Chiss Grand Admiral Thrawn had differing opinions on Palpatine's power and the reasons for why his death caused the Empire to self-destuct. They could both be right. Who knows.

And the as for the mentioned quote from the Essential Chronology....

Though Harrsk was the Empire's first breakaway warlord, he wouldn't be the last. The Empire had long rewarded ambition over cooperation; only intimidating leaders like Palpatine and Vader had kept their subordinates in line. Suddenly, post-Endor, everyone wanted to rule the Empire, or at least create their own kingdoms. More than any other factor, warlordism was responsible for the decline of the Empire

It is not a matter of concrete weapons yield over weapons yield so I'm not really suprised this dragged out so far. Thrawn could be right, the other sources could be right, it is debateable, obviously.

[Illuminatus Primus]

He's right about the Denning quote. LFL sends their authors reems of existing technical data and sourcebooks to write their novels.

Hence the proliferation of the "5 mile fallacy."

[SirNitram]

SirNitram wrote:

Taking one or two canon quotes and demanding they be the only truth is as bad as Darkstar.

Other quotes tell us 'Closer to the movies, more true'. So, we must re-order Canon thusly.

Movies.
Novelizations.
Scripts.
Radio Dramas.

ICS/Visual Dictionary.
Novels/Comics.
Essential Guides.
WEG.

To the best of my knowledge there is no hiearchy to official materials. Newer sources can not overide olders sources, and older sources can not take precedence merely because thery are older either.

Now like observation one could say that sources that have actually observations eg. pictures, or illustrations of objects should rank higher than text; but we have no official Lucasfilm position other than the fact that all Lucasfilm endorsed products reflect some truth about the SW universe.

So actually you have missed some official sources: trading cards, CCG, toys pakaging, video games materials (such as box art, plotlines etc, box summaries, etc.)

I have a question though, deleted scences are not canon, but shouldn't they be official if not contradicted by the canon version of the film?

I did miss those sources, yes, because I didn't know where to put them. The heiriarchy comes from Sansweet's quote on Ask The Jedi Council. He explicitly states the farther from the movies you get, the less close to the true story you get. Hence the order I put up.. Material declines in accuracy the farther you get from movies. Things from the backs of toys probably are around WEG, and I'd put CCG and trading cards slightly higher than WEG.

[SirNitram]

He's right about the Denning quote. LFL sends their authors reems of existing technical data and sourcebooks to write their novels.

Hence the proliferation of the "5 mile fallacy."

Where is this quote? I can't exactly take it into account on heresay.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I'm asking a friend of mine for the interview. I should be able to get the quote.

And you're still basing your heirarchy on just Sansweet's quote. You claim it directly defines how to approach continuity, where as Rostoni's little canon statement isn't figured in at all?

However, let the canon debate end, this is getting off-topic and nearing spam.

Personally, I used the "Absolute Canon" and "Canon/Official" two-fold heirarchy as my intepretation (holistically) of all quotes because that appeared to be logical, the general concensus, Mike has used it as well, and its validity is easily understood. Condensing it further I fear approaches placing one quote over another.

[SirNitram]

I'm asking a friend of mine for the interview. I should be able to get the quote.

And you're still basing your heirarchy on just Sansweet's quote. You claim it directly defines how to approach continuity, where as Rostoni's little canon statement isn't figured in at all?

However, let the canon debate end, this is getting off-topic and nearing spam.

Personally, I used the "Absolute Canon" and "Canon/Official" two-fold heirarchy as my intepretation (holistically) of all quotes because that appeared to be logical, the general concensus, Mike has used it as well, and its validity is easily understood. Condensing it further I fear approaches placing one quote over another.

Will you please stop fucking lying and saying I am just using Sansweet's quote? My god, you are a self-righteous little bitchboy.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Fine. Show me how the other quotes are figured into your heirarchy.

You stated yourself that its extrapolated from Sansweet's quote because you think it directly states an approach to canon, or something.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I can't disagree with you/think you're full of shit without being a "bitchboy" or being a "self-righteous liar"? Fuck you.

[SirNitram]

I can't disagree with you/think you're full of shit without being a "bitchboy" or being a "self-righteous liar"? Fuck you.

When you refuse to show evidence I'm wrong, automatically claim you are in the right, and claim what are apparantly telepathic powers to know how I formulate my conclusions, no, you can't.

It's simple:

'Everything Is Canon' quote: All things Star Wars are part of the overall continuity. From the Movies to the descriptions on the back of toys.

Gamer 3 Quote: Everything without Infinities or Tales Of are canon.

These two obviously conflict, but we all recignize that the second is a more detailed look.

Gamer 6: Canon is the word for what is the facts of the story of Star Wars.

These are the ones I could find right here in the thread. Now I will put in the part of the Sansweet quote that, in context with everything else, causes the setup.

The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play.

Okay? You see that? Or do you need it in crayon?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Fuck off. You led this down the canon tangent because you insisted I was poisoning the well because I said you made up your heirarchy and there's no reason it shows why Thrawn's gab trumps everything said in the Essential Chronology and other sources. That's horseshit. Especially when LFL issues your lowly guides to the authors as source material. Obviously they're considered competant compilations on data from canon. Everything isn't invalid or bullshit merely because they have goofy pictures or incorrect numbers. Sure they pulled those out of their ass, but their license to write for LFL means what they decide to write in general background information and explanation (in the 3rd person omniscient perspective which is inherently less subjective then dialogue and requires no context) is not below your interpretations of character dialogue from Heir to the Empire.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Who is this guy? Are we seeing the return of Darkstar, or possibly John Clark?

[Crayz9000]

Who is this guy? Are we seeing the return of Darkstar, or possibly John Clark?

Nope, not DarkStar.

After the logical analysis I gave him on ASVS he said that he "was acting too much like the Warsies" and decided to take a break.

We await his return with baited breath...

[Illuminatus Primus]

I'm arguing the complete opposite of DarkStar's horseshit, if you bothered to read rather then generalizing and trying to use DorkStar's hated name to discredit the arguments.

Don't give me that bullshit.

SirNitram, praytell exactly how you've shown that the Dark Empire Sourcebook quote and Essential Chronology quotes are wrong.

You do realize that the movies have errors, right? The "Lost Twenty Jedi" thing, corrected by later LFL continuity fixing in the WoTC Power of the Jedi Sourcebook's background information. The "1,000 year" Republic Palpatine mentions in AoTC when Lucas pointed out a 25,000 year Republic in ANH. That's been taken care of, by EU sources.

What's more, you do realize that there are comic series and several technical guides more canon then ICS or any of the movie interpretations--Lucas personally worked on them.

When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves - and only the films.

Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas' vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences. The novelizations are written concurrently with the film's production, so variations in detail do creep in from time to time. Nonetheless, they should be regarded as very accurate depictions of the fictional Star Wars movies.

The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play. LucasBooks works diligently to keep the continuing Star Wars expanded universe cohesive and uniform, but stylistically, there is always room for variation.

It'd seem to me he's saying the movies are absolute, the novelizations are almost the movies, they're close to absolute, and the EU is not the movies, and requires appropriate speculation and intepretation. I don't see how there's a method for discerning "distance from the movies" from EU novel (Heir to the Empire) to comic to game (Dark Empire Sourcebook) to supplementary info (Chronology).

How does one determine if The Last Command is "closer to the movies" then Dark Empire (which Lucas loved and bought/read himself and destribuited among his employees for Christmas in the early 1990s)? How does one decide if the Marvel comics are closer then the Essential Guide to Alien Species (which is written from the first person and arguably the equivalent of a short story)?

In my opinion, here's how it goes.

When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves - and only the films.

Therefore, 1.) Films

Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas' vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences.

Therefore, 2.) Movie Novelizations/Screenplays/Radio Dramas

The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play. LucasBooks works diligently to keep the continuing Star Wars expanded universe... *snip list of EU examples*

Things that Lucas Licensing does not consider official parts of the continuous Star Wars history show an Infinities logo or are contained in Star Wars Tales. Everything else is considered canon.

Therefore, 3.) Non-Infinites Expanded Universe Official Publications

So too must card and roleplaying games ascribe certain characteristics to characters and events in order to make them playable.

How that applies to how storytelling about the Empire's fall is inferior to Thrawn's opinions, I don't know. Will you tell me, SirNitram?

I really don't care how canon is absolutely defined. I'll concede there is a heirarchy, but LFL's statements are not specific to the degree your heirarchy is defined nor do they justify throwing out the sources I cited.

The Chronology is written from an in-universe prespective anyway, making it a storyline as much as a novel, a short story, or a comic.

The WEG Sourcebooks are simply technical data and background info, I'll give you that.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I said it before, and I'll say it again. There's no canon statement that justifies the ignoring of either the Dark Side Sourcebook quote or the Essential Chronology quote in favor of raising a Grand Admiral who was gone during the Empire's collapse to inform us that the absolute truth is that the Empire collapsed because the fleets couldn't maintain coherence without Palpatine's Force guidance.

Oh...but wait...the Imperial forces under Thrawn in the Unknown Regions remained loyal and fullfilled their mission under him.

And Palpatine was alive and well building on Byss, preparing to strike after Thrawn would weaken the New Republic, which by then had too much a foothold for Palpatine to reveal himself yet.

A few remnants found at Nirauan 10 years after Thrawn's death were even more fanatical and focused then during Palpatine's reign.

I think Thrawn himself is living evidence that the quality of leadership left in a post-Vader/Palpatine Empire with the dog-eat-dog political mentality of the Imperials is what doomed the Empire.

It couldn't survive because Palpatine's New Order depended on his presence to hold the balance. He died, and his subordinates predictably destroyed each other. Evidently it wasn't Force mumbo-jumbo that was just opinion and hearsay of Thrawn anyway.

[SirNitram]

You really are stupid.

1) The movies can't be corrected by lower sources. You are an ignorant little bitchboy if you think otherwise. We have this from multiple sources.. Here you have proven you take the 'everything is canon' quote and hold it above all others, exactly what you accuse me of doing.

2) Palpatine's forces could maintain coherence without him, but were less efficient and less skilled. I have repeated this statement multiple times. That you are employing a strawman is not particularly impressive.

3) Yes, Palpatine's setup of constantly warring moffs and no clear successor is one of many factors that doomed the Empire. However, this does not dismiss the fact that Palpatine was enacting Battle Meditation over millions, if not billions, of beings constantly. To use the power name you used.

4) The only peice I wished to contradict was the claim from the Thrawn Sourcebook, where it supposedly said Joruus used Battle Meditation. You were the one who spiraled it to this length, by refusing to listen to reason and by constantly poisoning the well. Here's some more proof against your BM claims: Battle Meditation is not described as giving blindsight or direct control(Joruus had to have it to time the shots), nor being able to seize 50,000 people and hold them motionless as he did in DFR. This is mass-mind control.

5) You are an ignorant little bitchboy and a liar.

[His Divine Shadow]

I'd say there is no contradiction, Thrawn was right about Palpy, as I've said, as for Joruus he never really used the exact same power, he used more controllable ways, I guess Joruus just didn't know how to do it exactly like Palpy did so he did the straightforward bit, controll.