Clonetrooper vs. Battledroid comparison

[Ghost Rider]

My point was, that you can't say that Clonetrooper is any better in 1on1 situation then B1.

Yes you can. Remember "clones can think creatively".

Who gives a fuck about creativity? The only thing a grunt needs to know is to take cover, shoot when you're supposed to shoot and charge.

Hell, all I have to do to make droids act like humans when under fire is to program 6 different reactions and make it into some random matrix.

1. Stand there acting shocked, be shot and killed.
2. Take cover.
3. Dodge left.
4. Dodge right.
5. Run.
6. Charge

And they barely do either.

Also just going take cover is broader then any of the other options. This would be like for programmming humans.

1. Breathe
2. Procreate
3. Eat
4. Sleep

1, 3, 4 are easily one note functions...number 2 isn't exactly as one note as it sounds.

[StarshipTitanic]

While the Battle of Geonosis is a sucky example of droid fighting, it does show that the SBDs have no regard for the well-being of their fellow droids. Clones, on the other hand, are trained to work together.

[Lord Revan]

The main problem with Nemodian battledroids is that they are like the Nemodians themselves when working inpendently: ruthless, selfish and greedy. In addition they're also fearless to point of being reckless and have no tactical intelegence what so ever. This lead situation like the B2 destroying that B1 that go in its way during arena battle in AOTC. Battledroids could probaly destroy a disabled trooper (droid or organic) by steping on it, while a clone would at least avoid destroying a trooper (on their own side) that could still fight if healed or fixed.

[NecronLord]

Do you honestly need someone to explain to you that a computer reacts to stimuli faster than a living organism?

Well... To play pedantic devil's advocate... There is jedi precog. Not that the clones have it mind, but their leaders do.

[brianeyci]

Hopefully ROTS explains why the Empire shuns battledroids. The "battledroids are stupid" idea isn't good enough. A couple of Droidekas with shields could have taken out an army of stormtroopers walking through that little hole in ANH. Of course that wouldn't have stopped Vader...

If I were to demonize something and motivate my people, it would be the droids. They represent instability, unrest, etc. Maybe the Emperor sends out propaganda that battle droids have ruined the Republic, and declares battle droids illegal.

Brian

[Aquatain]

Concripting troops has always been a good way to keep the tyrants in power,people have a hard time Criticizing a regime when they have family serving in the armed forces of said regime.

[The Silence and I]

My point was, that you can't say that Clonetrooper is any better in 1on1 situation then B1.

Yes you can. Remember "clones can think creatively".

Droids have better reaction times then any humans creative thinking is not gonna help the clone in 1on1 situation, but group fighting can develop new tactics to fit the situation and and only react to those (they lack the ability to make new tactics (they can only use their preprogramed tactics) unless there's an organic commander (why do you think the CIS uses Grevious instead an cheap full droid general (like OOM-9)

Correction: Droids should have better reaction times. The ones on Geonosis and Naboo are pathetically slow to react, have low-end human combat accuracy and just...suck.

[SylasGaunt]

Yep the B1s do blow.. I seem to recall them being outdrawn by Amidala (and she had to get the guns out of her throne to) and not only that, missing at a range of maybe 2 or 3 meters at best against a target standing in the open.

[Petrosjko]

Yep the B1s do blow.. I seem to recall them being outdrawn by Amidala (and she had to get the guns out of her throne to) and not only that, missing at a range of maybe 2 or 3 meters at best against a target standing in the open.

TPM also shows that they are demonstrably less durable than human beings. One would almost think they were designed for another role entirely and refitted for combat duties, given their utterly pathetic performance.

[PainRack]

Who gives a fuck about creativity? The only thing a grunt needs to know is to take cover, shoot when you're supposed to shoot and charge.

Hell, all I have to do to make droids act like humans when under fire is to program 6 different reactions and make it into some random matrix.

1. Stand there acting shocked, be shot and killed.
2. Take cover.
3. Dodge left.
4. Dodge right.
5. Run.
6. Charge

And they barely do either.

And neither do the Clones. Or Jedi for that matter.

Also just going take cover is broader then any of the other options. This would be like for programmming humans.

1. Breathe
2. Procreate
3. Eat
4. Sleep

1, 3, 4 are easily one note functions...number 2 isn't exactly as one note as it sounds.

Correction. Taking cover is as simple as diving to the ground in the correct manner, blatting out a few rounds at where the enemy is firing at you then moving in the approiate tactical manner to "suitable" cover, before iniatiting the rest of the contact drill.

You do know that if we can teach humans to do this in a "drill", there is absolutely no reason why SW, with its superior computing and programming abilities, refined to such a level as C3PO which acts as a protoccol droid, can't do this for their own battledroids?

[Darth Wong]

I see someone knows nothing about the engineering difficulties of making a highly accurate control system. These things are mass-produced, at a rate of one every few seconds. That's how they could rapidly build up huge armies, and it's also why their droids suck.

Tell me, do you expect every $300 RCA television set being manufactured to represent the pinnacle of all that is possible with the most advanced modern technology in existence?

[Howedar]

Do you honestly need someone to explain to you that a computer reacts to stimuli faster than a living organism?

Well... To play pedantic devil's advocate... There is jedi precog. Not that the clones have it mind, but their leaders do.

Since we don't know how far in advance a Jedi can see something, we have no idea just how good their reflexes are.

[Imperial Overlord]

Think about how much a high end droid like a droideka costs. It has multiple weapons, a transformable body, a micro reactor, and a shield generator. They are very effective and make up only a small percentage of the Trade Federations droids. That's your example of an uber droid and why they don't make up the rank and file.

[PainRack]

I see someone knows nothing about the engineering difficulties of making a highly accurate control system. These things are mass-produced, at a rate of one every few seconds. That's how they could rapidly build up huge armies, and it's also why their droids suck.

Tell me, do you expect every $300 RCA television set being manufactured to represent the pinnacle of all that is possible with the most advanced modern technology in existence?

I'm sorry, but I see a 6 year old kid building a working robot that can think for itself from scrapped parts.

Furthermore, that ignore the fact that I'm not arguing for uberdroids. I'm just arguing that the whole "creative" business is bullshit, because there ISN"T any at grunt level. As I said, the only possible actions for a soldier under fire is extremely simple, and we "drill", repeat, "drill", not teach them how to do movement to contact, contact drill creatively, but drill them in how to execute it. Considering that strageties, and even tactics can be easily done by human commanders, as we have seen, there isn't any reason why clonetroopers should have an edge over droids, ESPECIALLY considering the mass produced nature of droid armies.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

I see someone knows nothing about the engineering difficulties of making a highly accurate control system. These things are mass-produced, at a rate of one every few seconds. That's how they could rapidly build up huge armies, and it's also why their droids suck.

But they've already made the droids so elegant they can walk, which in itself is quite a engineering feat (at least by our standards). After they made a control system that elegant (if they were going for cheap and easy all the way, wheels or tracks might be a better idea) for the legs, they don't give it a good fire control system?

How hard is it in a universe of sentient droids to identify target with say an IR scope (this recognition task is probably the hardest). After that, slave laser ranger and scope on gun to target bearing for range and velocity (easy calcs). Range and velocity plus a vector calculation with known speed of blaster bolt gives lead solution angle - simple vector geometry is nothing after you've processed the Recognition Algorithm. Align gun to within 1MOA. Squeeze trigger with perfect technique (that's a preprogrammed drill). Hit.

[Darth Wong]

I'm sorry, but I see a 6 year old kid building a working robot that can think for itself from scrapped parts.

Scrapped parts found in a junkyard that happens to contain high-end parts such as fully functional hyperdrive units for a luxury space yacht.

Furthermore, that ignore the fact that I'm not arguing for uberdroids. I'm just arguing that the whole "creative" business is bullshit, because there ISN"T any at grunt level. As I said, the only possible actions for a soldier under fire is extremely simple, and we "drill", repeat, "drill", not teach them how to do movement to contact, contact drill creatively, but drill them in how to execute it. Considering that strageties, and even tactics can be easily done by human commanders, as we have seen, there isn't any reason why clonetroopers should have an edge over droids, ESPECIALLY considering the mass produced nature of droid armies.

Every single battledroid will have the exact same tactics, and lacks the intelligence necessary to adapt on the fly. If you can't see how this could conceivably be a problem, you aren't trying hard enough.

[Darth Wong]

I see someone knows nothing about the engineering difficulties of making a highly accurate control system. These things are mass-produced, at a rate of one every few seconds. That's how they could rapidly build up huge armies, and it's also why their droids suck.

But they've already made the droids so elegant they can walk, which in itself is quite a engineering feat (at least by our standards). After they made a control system that elegant (if they were going for cheap and easy all the way, wheels or tracks might be a better idea) for the legs, they don't give it a good fire control system?

By this logic, a 4 year old child's ability to walk automatically translates into sufficient hand-eye co-ordination to hit bullseyes with a gun.

How hard is it in a universe of sentient droids to identify target with say an IR scope (this recognition task is probably the hardest). After that, slave laser ranger and scope on gun to target bearing for range and velocity (easy calcs). Range and velocity plus a vector calculation with known speed of blaster bolt gives lead solution angle - simple vector geometry is nothing after you've processed the Recognition Algorithm. Align gun to within 1MOA. Squeeze trigger with perfect technique (that's a preprogrammed drill). Hit.

You honestly think that the hardest part about a control system is calculating the point you want the system to reach?

[NecronLord]

Since we don't know how far in advance a Jedi can see something, we have no idea just how good their reflexes are.

True. It almost certainly varies between different jedi.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

By this logic, a 4 year old child's ability to walk automatically translates into sufficient hand-eye co-ordination to hit bullseyes with a gun.

Huh? How did you read it that way? I don't mean to say the skill is exactly the same.

As far as I know, walking is quite a difficult thing to emulate, because it involves many minor shifts in many axes. So in choosing to use bipedal locomotion rather than say, tracks, they've already chosen to use extra expense.

So, after all those servos to precisely control walking, why not simply say make a turret where the head is (and stuff the CPU somewhere else). Terrans have been making turrets for decades now. After controlling dozens of servos, coordinating their start, acceleration and stop times so the droid can reasonably emulate a bipedal walk even in the uneven conditions of a battlefield, I just don't immediately see how hard it'd be to create a functional turret (with a horizontal and vertical traverse only) that has accuracy, say to within 2MOA (which should be enough for combat against all but snipers).

[The Silence and I]

In a galaxy that has had hyperdrive for some 25,000 years I find it hard to believe you can't get cheap parts that are good enough to build a human equivalent (at least) fire control system into a droid.

The level of accuracy and adaptive, on the fly programing needed to grant a bipedal droid an easy gait over the same terrain humans can traverse should more than suffice for pointing a gun in the direction of a human sized target. Wong mentioned a walking child cannot necessarily shoot accurately, but this is not a good argument--the child's balance and pedal coordination is well developed from experience (AKA practice), but lacking constant experience shooting, has not developed the needed skills to compete with a marksman. If you were to apply the well developed walking center of the broin towards shooting the child would be very accurate.
A droid has the walking part down...copy-paste anyone?

Of course, what I think should be is not relevant, and this is not what we see. Perhaps SW programmers suck majorly and use ancient adaptive programs which allow a droid to learn how to walk on its own (with some help built in to speed up the process), giving that an edge... dunno.

[Icehawk]

I think people are forgetting that Protocol droids and such are an everyday civilian grade device and as such their electronics do not need to be engineered and designed to withstand the wear and tear and harsh battlefield and environmental conditions that wardroids will face. I think this is why battledroids do not exhibit the same intelligence and capability of protocol droids because they are built cheaply and quickly to work in a specific area and in harsh conditions and in order to do this you must sacrifice the raw speed and processing capability that civilian computers and droids have.

To add anything else but the core necessities for autonomous movement and coodrination over terrain and basic communication and targeting capability would be a luxury that would simply be too costly and too much of an engineering nightmare for a mass produced army that must be able to withstand harsh conditions.

Just look at modern frontline military and space probe computer tech. You don't see that stuff running off GHz range P4 and AMD CPUs now do you?

[The Silence and I]

No we don't see high end CPUs running military computers today, and the same can be expected of future militaries as well. But consider this:

How fast will a "piece of shit" computer be in 50 years? 100? 1000? 25,000 years post hyperdrive invention? ~200 MHz today is crap, in a few decades 3.4 GHz will be crap... Star Wars should be able to find some piece of shit processor the size of a pin head capable of coordinating a bipedal droid. After a certain point it ought to become simple to solve the problems brought up by some in this thread; coordinating fire control--can't possible require more than a few THz (note, I am trying to be extreme here, if it really requires THz range then SW programmers need to take some lessions from STrek programmers...and that would be very very sad), thousands of generations from now we could put that in matchbox car, or build it molecule by molecule on a sheet of paper.

There is little technical excuse for droids that cannot out draw a modestly trained human or cannot accurately target a running human. In fact, the Destroyer Droids, complete with shields and heavy weapons are just as innacurate as the standard Battle Droids. Remember the hanger scene before Aniken blew them up? They had a clear line of fire to Padme's group--several shots landed a meter or more above their heads...

This is why droids in SW suck. I expect more technical competence from such an advanced and powerful technology base.

[Imperial Overlord]

It's not just the brain, its also the body.

[The Silence and I]

Aye, the body too. What is your point?

I was under the impression SW materials science was so uber they could build maneuverable Death Stars and Super Star Destroyers or whatever they are now called. So something tougher than steel should be easy to come by, yet battle droids are flimsy...

I guess you may have been thinking more about servo technology:

If the brains are just peachy then the servos are at fault. I suppose in all that unimaginable time no one bothered to work on servos--today we can build a robotic arm that moves precisely enough to nail a person's cloths to the wall (assuming it was programed with coordinates first, I do not intend to suggest we can build a dynamic combat program and a working droid). So I guess in the Star Wars universe these technologies were never refined to the point where something light and accurate enough to serve as an actuator for close range aiming was developed at a low cost? That would be very sad IMO.

I have seen the evil fearsome droids fielded by an organization intent on taking over a galactic republic and I have shaken my head in wonder. Not the good kind. I can only hope the seperatists really felt the Republic would collapse in fear without so much as a shot and start getting their act together in ROTS when they find out the Republic is willing--and able--to fight them.

[Icehawk]

There is little technical excuse for droids that cannot out draw a modestly trained human or cannot accurately target a running human. In fact, the Destroyer Droids, complete with shields and heavy weapons are just as innacurate as the standard Battle Droids. Remember the hanger scene before Aniken blew them up? They had a clear line of fire to Padme's group--several shots landed a meter or more above their heads...

SW technology IS fairly uber and IS fully capable of making perfect human replica droids with super strength and reflexes (Take Guri from Shadows of the Empire for example and Luke and Vader's robotic parts) and they are also fully capable of making droids designed with superior fighting capability to humans (X1 Viper Automatons, SD-10s, etc, etc).

However the reality is that all evidence shows them to being custom built or limited production jobs meant to compliment humanoid forces and not form the general backbone and the troops of a largescale galactic army, and this is likely due to either the overall cost and engineering requirments or the possible fact that the general populace of the Galaxy, both good and bad simply do not WANT their to be many droids that are capable of full and superior humanoid reflexes and emulation.