Latest on BBC on Fallujah?

[Stormbringer]

I'm appalled by this shocking and appalling action. The man surely must know that we should keep him alive to beat information out of him.

[Aaron]

And you again, devined my opinion that he should not be court-martialed how? Could you run it by me? Or are you just strawmanning me.

You never said squat about the soldier intially. You just stated that you didn't care about the insurgent. I assumed by the flipancy of your remarks that you were actually proud of the soldier. I was obviously wrong and apologise.

[Aaron]

I'm appalled by this shocking and appalling action. The man surely must know that we should keep him alive to beat information out of him.

As funny as that sounds, your right. He may have yielded valuable information. Hopefully they'd attain it without the beatings.

[Seggybop]

Well first you insure that he is unarmed. And second, you either wait for the engineers to arrive and provide security for them while they work. Or you wait for them and leave after they get there. And the engineers provide their own security.

Trust me military engineers are more than capable of defending themselves.

The video I saw wasn't very clear, but it looked like he had a blanket. He can conceal a weapon under that. If someone tried to see if a weapon under the blanket, he might have exploded. I don't see how there's any defense against something like that.

[Aaron]

The video I saw wasn't very clear, but it looked like he had a blanket. He can conceal a weapon under that. If someone tried to see if a weapon under the blanket, he might have exploded. I don't see how there's any defense against something like that.

The engineers painstakingly move the blanket back until they find some sort of device/weapon or the subject is uncovered. It's a long process but it can be done. And given the laws regarding POW's and war in general I'd say it has to be done.

[Aaron]

Can you link to the video?

[LordShaithis]

Am I the only one who wouldn't be terribly concerned if our guys took no prisoners at all, and burned down every mosque they passed?

[Keevan_Colton]

Am I the only one who wouldn't be terribly concerned if our guys took no prisoners at all, and burned down every mosque they passed?

No, there's always shep to join you.

[Stofsk]

And what incentive is left for the insurgents to surrender?

[RedImperator]

Am I the only one who wouldn't be terribly concerned if our guys took no prisoners at all, and burned down every mosque they passed?

As I'd like to get our guys out of that country sometime before the end of this century WITHOUT the whole fucking thing collapsing into a fundamentalist cesspool, yes, I would care if we went around riling up the locals more than we have to.

[Joe]

I wouldn't burn the mosques, but I wouldn't mind altering the ROE to take less prisoners. Between this and Abu Ghraib, these prisoners have been a huge fucking liability.

[Seggybop]

couldn't find a video, but AP had this frame

The guy might have a gun and/or a bomb. If they tried to check for a weapon, he could use it while they're in the process of searching him. If they leave him alone, he could shoot them at a random time.

[Aaron]

The guy might have a gun and/or a bomb. If they tried to check for a weapon, he could use it while they're in the process of searching him. If they leave him alone, he could shoot them at a random time.

Which guy is it? There's 3 in there.

I never said it was easy. But it has to be done. You can't just summarily execute a POW, or anyone.

[Plekhanov]

I wouldn't burn the mosques, but I wouldn't mind altering the ROE to take less prisoners. Between this and Abu Ghraib, these prisoners have been a huge fucking liability.

Isn’t it a little unfair to simply start shooting prisoners just because of US prison guards propensity to photograph themselves torturing people?

[Stofsk]

I never said it was easy. But it has to be done. You can't just summarily execute a POW, or anyone.

It is funny you should mention that. In the Boer War, I believe it was unofficial doctrine to kill prisoners by commandos behind the lines (they can't support them, they can't give up supplies to do so), and this was popularised in the Australian film "Breaker Morant", where the 'colonial' Aussie commandos were punished by the British High Command for following these 'orders' (a German sympathiser had been killed, hence the political storm caused the Brits to fuck with the Aussies, not that the Aussie government gave a shit at the time).

That interesting little tangent notwithstanding, I remember reading about our SAS's exploits in the invasion of Iraq, and how they were fighting deep behind enemy lines, being hunted by special Iraq forces and so on and so forth. They never took prisoners, but what they did do was patch up injured Iraqi soldiers and directed them in the direction of the nearest Coalition field-op.

Food for thought, perhaps?

[MKSheppard]

because of US prison guards propensity to photograph themselves torturing people?

I did not know that placing pink panties on someones head was torturing them.

[Seggybop]

Saw the complete video on CNN right now.

They say that they had seen the guys the previous day and that they were wounded who hadn't been picked up. The guy knew.

I retract what I said previously >_<

[Joe]

I wouldn't burn the mosques, but I wouldn't mind altering the ROE to take less prisoners. Between this and Abu Ghraib, these prisoners have been a huge fucking liability.

Isn’t it a little unfair to simply start shooting prisoners just because of US prison guards propensity to photograph themselves torturing people?

I didn't say shoot prisoners, I said to shoot them in the heat of battle when it's OK to do so, before they can be taken prisoner.

[Illuminatus Primus]

You never said squat about the soldier intially. You just stated that you didn't care about the insurgent. I assumed by the flipancy of your remarks that you were actually proud of the soldier. I was obviously wrong and apologise.

Apology accepted.

It'd be the same for SS scum captured in WW2; by all rights those vermin deserve to be put on their knees and have a .30-06 put through the back of their head. But this is not acceptable conduct for our disciplined and professional men and women in uniform.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Which guy is it? There's 3 in there.

I never said it was easy. But it has to be done. You can't just summarily execute a POW, or anyone.

Actually insurgents who do not wear readily identifiable marks are not considered legitimate resistance under Geneva and it is perfectly legal to line them up and have them shot.

[Durandal]

because of US prison guards propensity to photograph themselves torturing people?

I did not know that placing pink panties on someones head was torturing them.

Me neither. But loosing dogs on them and forcing them into humiliating sexual positions certainly qualifies.

[Stormbringer]

I'm appalled by this shocking and appalling action. The man surely must know that we should keep him alive to beat information out of him.

As funny as that sounds, your right. He may have yielded valuable information. Hopefully they'd attain it without the beatings.

I could really care less about how it's obtained. Don't ask, don't tell; at last that policy is good for something.

Which guy is it? There's 3 in there.

I never said it was easy. But it has to be done. You can't just summarily execute a POW, or anyone.

Actually insurgents who do not wear readily identifiable marks are not considered legitimate resistance under Geneva and it is perfectly legal to line them up and have them shot.

Sounds like a solid plan if ever there was one.

[Thinkmarble]

AP photog escapes Fallujah, unharmed, shaken
By Associated Press
Sunday, November 14, 2004BAGHDAD, Iraq - In the weeks before the crushing military assault on his hometown, Bilal Hussein sent his parents and brother away from Fallujah to stay with relatives.


      The 33-year-old Associated Press photographer stayed behind to capture insider images during the siege of the former insurgent stronghold.


      ``Everyone in Fallujah knew it was coming. I had been taking pictures for days,'' he said. ``I thought I could go on doing it.''


      In the hours and days that followed, heavy bombing raids and thunderous artillery shelling turned Hussein's northern Jolan neighborhood into a zone of rubble and death. The walls of his house were pockmarked by coalition fire.


      ``Destruction was everywhere. I saw people lying dead in the streets, wounded were bleeding and there was no one to come and help them. Even the civilians who stayed in Fallujah were too afraid to go out,'' he said.


      ``There was no medicine, water, no electricity nor food for days.''


      By Tuesday afternoon, as U.S. forces and Iraqi rebels engaged in fierce clashes in the heart of his neighborhood, Hussein snapped.


      ``U.S. soldiers began to open fire on the houses, so I decided that it was very dangerous to stay in my house,'' he said.


      Hussein said he panicked, seizing on a plan to escape across the Euphrates River, which flows on the western side of the city


      ``I wasn't really thinking,'' he said. ``Suddenly, I just had to get out. I didn't think there was any other choice.''


      In the rush, Hussein left behind his camera lens and a satellite telephone for transmitting his images. His lens, marked with the distinctive AP logo, was discovered two days later by U.S. Marines next to a dead man's body in a house in Jolan.


      AP colleagues in the Baghdad bureau, who by then had not heard from Hussein in 48 hours, became even more worried.


      Hussein moved from house to house - dodging gunfire - and reached the river.


      ``I decided to swim ... but I changed my mind after seeing U.S. helicopters firing on and killing people who tried to cross the river.''


      He watched horrified as a family of five was shot dead as they tried to cross. Then, he ``helped bury a man by the river bank, with my own hands.''


      ``I kept walking along the river for two hours and I could still see some U.S. snipers ready to shoot anyone who might swim. I quit the idea of crossing the river and walked for about five hours through orchards.''


      He met a peasant family, who gave him refuge in their house for two days. Hussein knew a driver in the region and sent a message to another AP colleague, Ali Ahmed, in nearby Ramadi.


      Ahmed relayed the news that Hussein was alive to AP's Baghdad bureau. He sent a second message back to Hussein that a fisherman in nearby Habaniyah would ferry the photographer to safety by boat.


      ``At the end of the boat ride, Ali was waiting for me. He took me to Baghdad, to my office.''


      Sitting safely in the AP's offices, a haggard-looking Hussein offered a tired smile of relief.


      ``It was a terrible experience in which I learned that life is precious,'' he said. ``I am happy that I am still alive after being close to death during these past days.''

     

[LordShaithis]

I'm tired of worrying about making the shithead Muslims angry when they already hate us. Fucking nuke Mecca too.

[Plekhanov]

I'm tired of worrying about making the shithead Muslims angry when they already hate us. Fucking nuke Mecca too.

And that will achieve what exactly?