ChiComs lock Fire Control Radars onto Taiwanese PM's plane

[arctic_series]

Tiananmen Square. The Hundred Flowers campaign. The Cultural Revolution. The Great Leap Forward.

Kent State shooting, The hollywood blacklist, The million man march - not the act itself, but what provoked it. i.e mistreatment of african americans throughout the history of the US.

I could go on. And, as many on this board will tell you, I am not a bleeding-heart liberal.

what's your point ? does all the misdeeds of the chinese government warrant the nuking of chinese civilians like many posters in this thread seems to agree on ? that is the point.

your selective ability to highlight common disasters/atrocities of certain countries isn't exactly something requires a great deal of effort or skill. especially that of countries which are more readily chasticized for their differing idealogies such as countries with a communist background.

[arctic_series]

Funny how the Taiwanese Adminstration is elected and Bejing's isn't huh?

how funny how taiwan still isn't really recognised as a sovereign nation huh ? you know, the whole point of taiwan's independence ?

So gee I guess that means that the Taiwanese government is maybe just a bit more responsive to the will of it's citizens. Or least doesn't roll tanks over them.

is that your justification for nuking chinese civilians ?

No one back's Taiwan because China has more buying power,

well no shit. but guess what ? that seems to matter a lot in the real world, where moral justice doesn't mean shit.

this is all about the almighty profit line to them, not what's best for the citizens of Taiwan or China.

wrong. the "almighty profit line" is directly related to what's best for the citizens of taiwan or china.

Talk about ignorance, do you ever I don't know, read what the fucking reports have to say on China?

talk about selective comprehension, do you ever read what "reports" have to say on other countries ? again, that's beside the point.

are those "fucking reports" an excuse to nuke chinese civilians ?

Human Rights Watch

great, so once again you've choosen to bring up the obvious. yes, china has issues with human rights abuse, yes china isn't a democracy. but is that a good enough reason to nuke chinese civilians ?

there's forced abortions. Now I don't care if you're pro-choice or not, forcing a women to have an abortion is disgusting. It ranks right up there with rape in my eyes.

so you're basically applying standards that shouldn't be applied to china. fantastic.

has it ever occured to you that maybe given china's situation, it warrants many necessary evils in order to maintain a nation of a billion plus citizens ?

again, does such misdeed warrant the nuking of chinese civilians ? what i find disgusting is that people in this thread are so casual when it comes to talking about nuking china for it's misdeeds, yet at the same time they're preaching human rights and moral justice.

[Rogue 9]

Tiananmen Square. The Hundred Flowers campaign. The Cultural Revolution. The Great Leap Forward.

Kent State shooting, The hollywood blacklist, The million man march - not the act itself, but what provoked it. i.e mistreatment of african americans throughout the history of the US.

Red herring. The actions of the United States has nothing to do with the fact that China does, in fact, send people to mass internment despite your protestations to the contrary. Note the quote I was responding to. I was refuting your denial that such events took place, not asserting that China deserved to be nuked.

I could go on. And, as many on this board will tell you, I am not a bleeding-heart liberal.

what's your point ? does all the misdeeds of the chinese government warrant the nuking of chinese civilians like many posters in this thread seems to agree on ? that is the point.

your selective ability to highlight common disasters/atrocities of certain countries isn't exactly something requires a great deal of effort or skill. especially that of countries which are more readily chasticized for their differing idealogies such as countries with a communist background.

My point is that you were talking out of your ass when you said this:

just like how in the US thousands of school shootings occur every hour right ?

any more stereotypes ?

In response to this:

If Taiwan was a commie country where thousands of people were disappeared & shot

Your response implied a denial of undeniable facts. I corrected you. If you're now going to make red herrings about the United States (and ignore the evidence put forth by frigidmagi at that), it's your problem.

[MKSheppard]

Look, a Chinese nationalist twit!

The Seer can be fun to quote at times

We had a Chinese Officer here once on exchange (billed as a "look what we can do" session it was really a "look what we can do to you" exercise). We got the standard line about how the Chinese could lose 500 million people in a nuclear war and keep going with the survivors. So we got out a demographic map (one that shows population densities rather than topographical data) and got to work with pie-cutters using a few classified tricks. We got virtually the entire population of China using only a small proportion of the US arsenal. Our guest stared at the map for a couple of minutes then went and tossed his cookies into the toilet bowl.

[Rogue 9]

<snip indignant railing against the facts>

again, does such misdeed warrant the nuking of chinese civilians ? what i find disgusting is that people in this thread are so casual when it comes to talking about nuking china for it's misdeeds, yet at the same time they're preaching human rights and moral justice.

Strawman. Point out where he advocated the nuclear destruction of China.

[frigidmagi]

You seemed to have me confused with Shep. I have at no time adovated instant sunrise has a soluation to China's abuses. Your Strawmaning is noted. I stated that I was willing to be on the front line in any battle to preserve the freedom of Taiwan's citizens.

[arctic_series]

Red herring. The actions of the United States has nothing to do with the fact that China does, in fact, send people to mass internment despite your protestations to the contrary. Note the quote I was responding to. I was refuting your denial that such events took place, not asserting that China deserved to be nuked.

where did i deny anything ? it wasn't denial in my post, but rather distaste for exaggeration on common issues of china's human rights abuse.

My point is that you were talking out of your ass when you said this:

of course i was, it was exaggerating.

Your response implied a denial of undeniable facts. I corrected you. If you're now going to make red herrings about the United States (and ignore the evidence put forth by frigidmagi at that), it's your problem.

that's not even my post.

[arctic_series]

[quote=Rogue 9]

Strawman. Point out where he advocated the nuclear destruction of China.
[/quote]

excuse my poor quoting, but below is what i'm referring to with all my references to nuking chinese civilians.

[quote=aerius]
Although I was born in Canada, my parents and the rest of my family's Taiwanese, and most of my relatives are still living in Taiwan. Let's just say I have more than enough reasons to go kill a few Chicoms, or better yet, push the nukey nukey button.[/quote]

[arctic_series]

You seemed to have me confused with Shep. I have at no time adovated instant sunrise has a soluation to China's abuses. Your Strawmaning is noted.

just poor quoting on my behalf. you'll have to excuse me on that one

I stated that I was willing to be on the front line in any battle to preserve the freedom of Taiwan's citizens.

except you're not really preserving the freedom of taiwan's citizens in any given battle. only to serve those in power in taiwan.

[Aaron]

[

except you're not really preserving the freedom of taiwan's citizens in any given battle. only to serve those in power in taiwan.

How is fighting to save a democratic country not preserving their citizens freedoms??

[arctic_series]

when you're fighting to preserve freedoms that already exists, and such freedoms may be taken away given PRC's past history if reunification were to happen in the near future, which it won't.

what is more important ?

keeping the region stable, no independence for taiwan. plenty of freedoms for taiwanese citizens, independent or not.

or

screw regional stability, independence for taiwan, same freedoms for taiwanese citizens, now with china really pissed and likely a boatload of shit will hit the fan.

[Aaron]

when you're fighting to preserve freedoms that already exists, and such freedoms may be taken away given PRC's past history if reunification were to happen in the near future, which it won't.

what is more important ?

keeping the region stable, no independence for taiwan. plenty of freedoms for taiwanese citizens, independent or not.

or

screw regional stability, independence for taiwan, same freedoms for taiwanese citizens, now with china really pissed and likely a boatload of shit will hit the fan.

I'm in favour of dealing with the PRC now, before they have the ability to actually invade Taiwan. I'm pretty sure there will be a power struggle between the West and China eventually.

But I don't think anything will actually happen until Taiwan declares independance, which they seem reluctant to do (understandably).

[arctic_series]

I'm in favour of dealing with the PRC now, before they have the ability to actually invade Taiwan.

of course, everyone is. even the businessmen of taiwan seems to think so.

I'm pretty sure there will be a power struggle between the West and China eventually.

doesn't matter if china succeeds or not when it comes to taking taiwan by force, either outcome will not bode well for anyone.

But I don't think anything will actually happen until Taiwan declares independance,

it's ironic, on one hand taiwan refuses to open direct trade links with china, in the fear that open trade links will result in too much mingling between taiwan and china and eventually taiwan will be assimilated through the interaction, while on the other hand refusing to open direct trade links hampers the awaiting economic prosperity for both sides.

which they seem reluctant to do (understandably).

not forgetting the other factors which makes either reunification and independence impossible, hence realistically speaking.. taiwanese independence's timing by itself is way off, it's relevance is lacking and pointless for everyone, including the people of taiwan.

[Grand Moff Yenchin]

I'm not optimistic on the 'economic prosperity for both sides'. PRC officials and the businessmen have a nice history on harrassing Taiwanese businessmen.

[arctic_series]

I'm not optimistic on the 'economic prosperity for both sides'. PRC officials and the businessmen have a nice history on harrassing Taiwanese businessmen.

yet taiwanese businessman are still flocking to china..

but then again it's usually the case of differing political opinions getting in the way. the chinese government actually has a whole heap of great incentives for taiwanese businessmen to do business in china.

so yes, prosperity for both sides is a given even today, more so in the future as long as there is peace between the straits.

[Stormbringer]

Given that China has already been wracking up the allegations for breaches of it's own agreements regarding Hong Kong, I don't see them being any better to Taiwan.

[Grand Moff Yenchin]

yet taiwanese businessman are still flocking to china..

but then again it's usually the case of differing political opinions getting in the way. the chinese government actually has a whole heap of great incentives for taiwanese businessmen to do business in china.

so yes, prosperity for both sides is a given even today, more so in the future as long as there is peace between the straits.

Because news of such harrassment and inevitable failure in business is seldom reported in the pro-Chinese media.

Also during the Presidential Election the Chinese government threatened the Taiwanese businessmen not to return to vote. The great incentives are only great as long as the Chairman is happy.

As long as Chung-Nan Hai is barking about Taiwanese politics, and the other stuff going around in China. I'd consider the 'win-win' something like near-sightness. Sooner or later the Taiwanese economy will be leashed by China.

[arctic_series]

Because news of such harrassment and inevitable failure in business is seldom reported in the pro-Chinese media.

well that's a given.

Also during the Presidential Election the Chinese government threatened the Taiwanese businessmen not to return to vote.

eh you got any articles on that ? doesn't make much sense. wouldn't the chinese government want the taiwanese businessmen to return to vote, and at that vote for the KMT ?

The great incentives are only great as long as the Chairman is happy.

well that seems to be enough, considering that taiwanese doing business in china don't seem to be phased at all by whatever threats the chinese government is handing out.

As long as Chung-Nan Hai is barking about Taiwanese politics, and the other stuff going around in China. I'd consider the 'win-win' something like near-sightness.

of course it's a 'win-win' situation, but it all depends on how taiwan's relations with china will be in the future.

Sooner or later the Taiwanese economy will be leashed by China.

exactly, even a better reason why any moves which could damage cross-strait relations should be avoided at all costs.

[septesix]

Also during the Presidential Election the Chinese government threatened the Taiwanese businessmen not to return to vote.

eh you got any articles on that ? doesn't make much sense. wouldn't the chinese government want the taiwanese businessmen to return to vote, and at that vote for the KMT ?

They did, they encourage the KMT supporter to come back to vote, and they harraessed the DPP supporter. The tactic continue even after the election as several Famous Business owner , who were known DPP supporters , were at one point or antoher denied entry into China


You can't really use the "Yet all the taiwaness businessman are going to china" as evidence of how well the two side get along. They go because THEY HAVE TO. Because everyone else in the global market is going to china, and they'll lose, big time, if they don't. Just about everyone me and my family talked to agree that it's akin to drink down poisinous water to stop you from dying of thirst.

[arctic_series]

You can't really use the "Yet all the taiwaness businessman are going to china" as evidence of how well the two side get along.

it's not about how well the two sides are getting along, it's about either side has to play with each other whether they like it or not. meanwhile the extra $$$ doesn't hurt either.

They go because THEY HAVE TO. Because everyone else in the global market is going to china, and they'll lose, big time, if they don't. Just about everyone me and my family talked to agree that it's akin to drink down poisinous water to stop you from dying of thirst.

that's the whole point. it's not like the other choices are worthwhile anyway. hence why taiwan's independence is even more pointless in this stage in time.

[Grand Moff Yenchin]

Also during the Presidential Election the Chinese government threatened the Taiwanese businessmen not to return to vote.

eh you got any articles on that ? doesn't make much sense. wouldn't the chinese government want the taiwanese businessmen to return to vote, and at that vote for the KMT ?

I stand corrected. During (and before) the election China supported the pan-Blue. So there was no direct harassment. I don't know where septesix got his info, the stuff I knew were basically the "post-autumn paybacks".

The great incentives are only great as long as the Chairman is happy.

well that seems to be enough, considering that taiwanese doing business in china don't seem to be phased at all by whatever threats the chinese government is handing out.

Are you sure?

The ball is obviously on China.

As long as Chung-Nan Hai is barking about Taiwanese politics, and the other stuff going around in China. I'd consider the 'win-win' something like near-sightness.

of course it's a 'win-win' situation, but it all depends on how taiwan's relations with china will be in the future.

Thus near sighted.

And it is obviously the patience of the Taiwanese are getting thin with Chinese actions on elections. The military exercises and talks are either having no effect or counter-effect.

As I mentioned in an earlier thread I don't agree with immediate independence. But the effect of China's sabre rattling is not healthy for the Strait, either. The Taiwanese 'du-lan' emotion has big effects and sooner or later people will du-lan China. Something that Chung Nan Hai hasn't learned for nearly a decade. And is becoming to have more serious effects (for starters, the 2000 Presidential Election).

Sooner or later the Taiwanese economy will be leashed by China.

exactly, even a better reason why any moves which could damage cross-strait relations should be avoided at all costs.[/quote

Well it's up to the two leaders of the Strait, I guess.

Some people still think the pan-Blue (KMT, PFP) would improve the relationship. However I don't think with their current condition they would do any good but just do some lapdog stuff.

And with assclowns like Justin Chou, Ma Ying Gao as "the next generation" of the Pan-Blue, as well as the KMT vs. PFP unification fiasco going on, I'd doubt that the Blues would rise again in the near future.

[arctic_series]

I stand corrected. During (and before) the election China supported the pan-Blue. So there was no direct harassment. I don't know where septesix got his info, the stuff I knew were basically the "post-autumn paybacks".

doesn't really matter, there's nothing new about governments harassing businesses when they don't see things the same way as the government.

Are you sure?

The ball is obviously on China.

eh ? i don't get it. that article doesn't really say much.

it's pretty much business as usual in china either way.

Thus near sighted.

not really near sighted, just being realistic.

And it is obviously the patience of the Taiwanese are getting thin with Chinese actions on elections. The military exercises and talks are either having no effect or counter-effect.

the patience of the taiwanese isn't really going to affect business in china either way as long as nothing really serious happens, which it won't..

and i would've thought that military exercises were a thing of the last elections, as the chinese government kind of figured out that the more you try to harass the taiwanese voters, the more they'll vote against you ? hence during the 2004 elections china pretty much didn't do jack all ?

As I mentioned in an earlier thread I don't agree with immediate independence. But the effect of China's sabre rattling is not healthy for the Strait, either.

china's sabre rattling is all relative to the level of pro-independence movement in taiwan pretty much. so being on the middle of the fence like me, i can see that it's a lot easier to get taiwan to shut up than to tell china to stop the sabre rattling.

The Taiwanese 'du-lan' emotion has big effects and sooner or later people will du-lan China. Something that Chung Nan Hai hasn't learned for nearly a decade. And is becoming to have more serious effects (for starters, the 2000 Presidential Election).

which really isn't going to mean anything as long as china's economy powers on in this manner.

globalization can really be a bitch.

Some people still think the pan-Blue (KMT, PFP) would improve the relationship. However I don't think with their current condition they would do any good but just do some lapdog stuff.

hey, some lapdog stuff would seem to do just fine to shut china up for the moment.

And with assclowns like Justin Chou, Ma Ying Gao as "the next generation" of the Pan-Blue, as well as the KMT vs. PFP unification fiasco going on, I'd doubt that the Blues would rise again in the near future.

don't have much an idea about taiwanese politics, so that comment is lost on me

[Grand Moff Yenchin]

Are you sure?

The ball is obviously on China.

eh ? i don't get it. that article doesn't really say much.

it's pretty much business as usual in china either way.

Pro-Green businessmen banned for stock, yeah there will be much business for a portion of people.

Thus near sighted.

not really near sighted, just being realistic.

If we're interpreting the term 現實 then it's near sighted & realistic.

the patience of the taiwanese isn't really going to affect business in china either way as long as nothing really serious happens, which it won't..

and i would've thought that military exercises were a thing of the last elections, as the chinese government kind of figured out that the more you try to harass the taiwanese voters, the more they'll vote against you ? hence during the 2004 elections china pretty much didn't do jack all ?

The Chinese government seems to still have no grasp of this concept. And as long as the DPP is still in power, they'll still attempt to throw in a stunt for independence. Which is why I'm concerned on the patience problem. Eventually someone will try to do something stupid. link

china's sabre rattling is all relative to the level of pro-independence movement in taiwan pretty much. so being on the middle of the fence like me, i can see that it's a lot easier to get taiwan to shut up than to tell china to stop the sabre rattling.

After '00 election A-Bien promised to maintain the status, and then '01 the Tungshan Island exercise was loud enought to get the US send another carrier. The ball isn't always on Taiwan.

which really isn't going to mean anything as long as china's economy powers on in this manner.

globalization can really be a bitch.

As above.

Some people still think the pan-Blue (KMT, PFP) would improve the relationship. However I don't think with their current condition they would do any good but just do some lapdog stuff.

hey, some lapdog stuff would seem to do just fine to shut china up for the moment.

Things like this would cause more polarization.

don't have much an idea about taiwanese politics, so that comment is lost on me

Well one can't do math and the other plays pussy when responsibility comes to him. Also the whole KMT-PFP is nowadays a moron wankfest which is why people are choosing the DPP and the more radical Taiwan Solidarity Union.

No balance, not a good sign.