"YOu don't know the Power of the Dark Side"

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-11-17 01:18am

NecronLord wrote:
Stravo wrote:Guess Obi Wan wasn't THAT much of a lying scumbag when he pulled his certain point of view crap eh?

I think that point will be made with the yellow eyes on Anakin as per the trailer and the line "You don't know the power of the Darkside. I must obey." may indicate a certain slave like mentality to Palpatine. Perhaps Palpy discovered a Dark side power that allows him to control his Apprentices much like he Force coordinates his Empire.
Also absolves Vader from any responsibility for his actions. Nice that, eh?

Hardly. Vader is responsible for the actions he made. Anakin's ACTION is an acknowledgement of this. The only way he could have redeemed himself was by killing the Emperor, and once he died, the hold on him disappeared. Anakin returns to dominance, finds out he's dying, because likely the Dark Side not only turned him into Vader but also kept him alive after falling into a molten pit. Once the DS leaves it's hold, he can't live. I think it's quite clear that Anakin well and truly DID die in the upcoming movie. Nothing absolves Anakin of guilt, but given the way this whole shebang worked, there was no way he could have lived if he redeemed himself. So, he dies - which is punishment enough for his crimes.

Incidentally, why do people assume Vader is absolved from responsibility simply because Anakin was possessed if you will by the DS? Just because the theme in ROTJ was redemption?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2004-11-17 02:08am

Stofsk wrote:Incidentally, why do people assume Vader is absolved from responsibility simply because Anakin was possessed if you will by the DS? Just because the theme in ROTJ was redemption?

Was the captain with the bug in his ear responsible for betraying Kirk in the Wrath of Khan? Sorry, if you are posessed, you are not in control of your own actions, and can not legitimately be held responsible for them because you did not make the decision to undertake them.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-11-17 02:18am

NecronLord wrote:
Stofsk wrote:Incidentally, why do people assume Vader is absolved from responsibility simply because Anakin was possessed if you will by the DS? Just because the theme in ROTJ was redemption?
Was the captain with the bug in his ear responsible for betraying Kirk in the Wrath of Khan? Sorry, if you are posessed, you are not in control of your own actions, and can not legitimately be held responsible for them because you did not make the decision to undertake them.

That doesn't answer the question on why this would necessarily be a bad thing. And CAPT Terrel felt enormously guilty over what he had done, as likely Anakin did. If you're worried about them not being punished for what they did while possessed, then death is a somewhat ultimate punishment. If on the other hand, this is NOT your concern... I, er, have to ask what is.

Don't like ROTJ's redemption theme?

Aquatain · Post by **Aquatain** » 2004-11-17 02:27am

Was the captain with the bug in his ear responsible for betraying Kirk in the Wrath of Khan? Sorry, if you are posessed, you are not in control of your own actions, and can not legitimately be held responsible for them because you did not make the decision to undertake them.

In this case i would be like the Captain put the bug in his ear to be able to betray Kirk.
Don't forget that Anakin turn to Evil before he becomes Vader Whatever happens after that ,is because he Choosed the Wrong path.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2004-11-17 05:15am

Stofsk wrote:Don't like ROTJ's redemption theme?

There's a difference between "Darth Vader, Mr Evil, turning on the Emperor because of paternal love," and "Anakin Skywalker, finalys escaping the Emperor's mental conditioning." Namely that one basically aquitts Anakin of all the crimes of Vader, whereas the other is a more meaningful change.

Aquatain · Post by **Aquatain** » 2004-11-17 05:17am

Vader is the result of Anakins Faliures ..he is ultimately resposable.

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2004-11-17 11:48am

This discussion made me think how creepy and lame the end of the Return of the Jedi: Infinites version was.

spoiler

Anakin Skywalker in a all white Darth Vader outfit. That ought to go over well for the Rebellion.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-11-17 12:30pm

Tsyroc wrote:This discussion made me think how creepy and lame the end of the Return of the Jedi: Infinites version was.

spoiler

Anakin Skywalker in a all white Darth Vader outfit. That ought to go over well for the Rebellion.

Oh jeebus...you had to remind me that thing existed!

Sorry, practically all the Infinites made me barf at how utterly dumb they ended and almnosty the absurdity of conclusions they made.

SWI: ROTJ was just blah because...well Palkp also became practically a Scooby villain.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-11-17 12:35pm

Ghost Rider wrote: SWI: ROTJ was just blah because...well Palp also became practically a Scooby villain.

"And I would have taken over the galaxy too if it wasn't for you stupid rebels and your dumb droids."

SWI: reminds me of really bad fanfiction.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-11-17 12:46pm

Stravo wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote: SWI: ROTJ was just blah because...well Palp also became practically a Scooby villain.
"And I would have taken over the galaxy too if it wasn't for you stupid rebels and your dumb droids."

SWI: reminds me of really bad fanfiction.

Pretty much.

But I mean they take one event and somehow come up with a tangent that makes no fucking sense. Luke's death destroys echo base how again. Because they went dumb with the early warning systems.

Luke misses Proton shot...thus the only way to defeat the Empire is to crash the DS into Coruscant?!

All in all, it's not only bad fanfic by any standards...it sad these guys get published. The bizarre shit they come up with would be no better if you or Chuck decided for say ESB: Infinites

"Y'know...a pivotal event was when Darth Vader was trying talk to the Emperor. Instead of going 'Yes, My Master.', he goes 'Screw you hippie!'...and we take it from there.

The Emperor making Vader unable to take a dump somehow make Han get out of Cloud city with Lando getting shot but allows Luke to get Carbon Frozen, and taken to the Emperor. Yoda in a fit of rage, trains Chewbacca to stop the Emperor and Vader, is revealed to be a Hermaphroditic FROG!!!!"

"Yeah...that would be cool."

Where they go with it, makes less and less sense when you read one entirely(which I only recommend because you're stuck in a bookstore and bored to tears...or sadistic enough to try)

Mark S · Post by **Mark S** » 2004-11-17 02:41pm

Stravo wrote:Doesn't fit GL's style, we didn't see a single montage in any of the movies.

Well, when Anakin was tracking down his mother in AOTC that was sort of a montage.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-11-17 02:51pm

Mark S wrote:
Stravo wrote:Doesn't fit GL's style, we didn't see a single montage in any of the movies.
Well, when Anakin was tracking down his mother in AOTC that was sort of a montage.

True enough, but I just don;t see Lucas going Montage route in Anakin's decision. It will be a single event that pushes him over the edge and down the dark path for once you start down the dark path forever will it dominate your destiny. Not happy about that but there's very little to be happy about with the prequels.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-11-18 02:19pm

Stravo wrote:I floated my personal theory that life creates the force and makes it grow, so Vader's cybernetics acts as a sort of interference that doesn't let the force flow as easily. GL stated that the cybernetics were the key to his loss of power, not his injuries or any other status. From that I take it that cybernetics may act as a sort of buffer between you and the flow of the Force.

I interepret that as more "using the Force to overcome the limitations of your physical condition."

Note all that BS in TPM about how Qui Gon was an "old man" and so not as powerful as the young Maul and Obi-Wan. Yet we know that Older Jedi are quite powerful. Why should physical age matter at all? If anything older Jedi have more experience and more stored wisdom. Is Lucas saying that the Force is based on Life and so Old People have Less "Life in them" than Young People? Do your Midichlorians "Burn out" as you get older?

After seeing Yoda go from hobbling old cougher on his cane to leaping maniac with his lightsaber, I'd say that it's been demonstrated that you can use the Force to overcome physical limitations. But let's say using up X amount of Force to "keep him acting young" is less force he can use for his combat attacks or something.

By a similar token, if say Vader's cybernetics make him actually weak, then he has to use extra force to overcome that in his fighting.

It's not as if he can only use his "real arm" to force pull stuff, but his robot arm can't do it? Otherwise cut off both a Jedi's hands and he can't use the force anymore! Anyway, I always thought that the "gesturing" thing was more an aide to concentration and a stage cue, not the actual means of using the Force. In Vader's Duel with Luke he isn't always gesturing with his fingers when stuff is flying at Luke for example. Is Luke waving his hands when he makes Threepio float on Endor?

The thing is, I assumed that the cybernetics in SW would at least be equal to, if not stronger than the average human body part. But maybe that's not a given. Or maybe it's some goofy "less physical body = less midichlorians and therefore less force" explanation. Of course that would totally contradict Yoda's ramblings about size not mattering. That could mean that physical size has nothing to do with midichlorian concentration...