Could Jedi use force lightning ?

[Ted C]

The fact that Yoda "uses" it in AOTC seems to indicate that Jedi can use it, even if it's rare. Unless you want to assume that Yoda was using the Dark Side during that fight.

Yoda never "used" Force Lightning in AOTC. He deflected Dooku's first lightning bolt, which sent part of it back in Dooku's direction. He completely absorbed/neutralized subsequent bolts.

It might be possible for Jedi to generate lightning the way some Sith do, but I doubt that they ever would, at least not against a living being. Jedi are opposed to using the Force as a weapon. Luke is the only slacker in this regard; he once used the force to choke out a couple of guards at Jabba's palace, which I would consider a dubious act at best, based on Yoda's instructions to him. Of course, Luke seems to be constantly flirting with the Dark Side, for some reason.

[Connor MacLeod]

Teneniel Djo generated a lighting bolt powerful enough to destroy a scout walker in Courtship of Princess Leia. Jedi have used "Force lightning" in the games I believe (Jedi Starfighter, for example) but that might've been against droids fighters, not organics.

As for Luke in ROTJ, it was explicitly stated in canon that he was a Jedi at the time.

Besides, its not the kind of weapon or attack that they use - its the intent with which they use it. Killing with the Force is a bit easier for a Jedi, and the Force does seem to be tuned somewhat to emotions (or lack thereof), which makes using it in a fit of passion or emotion possibly more dangerous than say, using a blaster, ,but its not an obvious thing. Luke, as demonstrated by ROTJ, would have just as easily fallen to the Dark Side by using his lightsaber to strike down Palpatine or using something like a force choke.

Perhaps the 'difference' lies in control - if one is overly emotional (especialyl those tied to the Dark Side) one's control is substantially lessened, resulting in more unpredictable "surges' of power that can have undesirable side effects for the person using them (physical damage, ,or mayhaps addiction of some sort...)

[Kurgan]

What Primey apparently means to say (although whyy he didn't frame it so I don't know) is that Lucas' comments apply the same way ILM and SPX designers do (such as the "radar globes" and the "500 mile" Death Star claims) - they can be beneficial in helpign to explain and clarify what we see or hear onscreen (or in the case of authors, explaining ambiguities in what we read.) but they are in and of themselves not of the same status or superior to the source material itself.

Lucas cannot claim that Alderaan blew up on its own and had no shield, for example, because this is explicitly contradicted by what is seen onscreen. By a similar note, there is "behind the scenes" evidence that puts the second Death Star at 160 km , even though that it is scaled at a much grreater dimension (and there are later commentary that indicate they changed their minds. In fact, that inconsistency is one of the reasons we don't put 100% faith in behind the scenes or creator commentary - Lucas is well known for changing his mind, and the DS2 size thing demonstrates that things change over time. Hell, its already well established that the "size" of Star Destroyers ranged from one mile to six miles as well.)

Lucas CAN of course revise the movies by producing new ones (like the "modifications" he's made to the OT both in the SE and DVDs) - but this does not automatically overrule "prior" versions - Greedo shooting first in the SE does not automatically override the fact Han did shoot first in the movies (I believe Mike made this argument before on his site, in fact.)

I agree with you. I too have balked at the "I always intended" stuff that Lucas lets fly every so often. But how about when he says something that doesn't contradict what we see onscreen? Or stuff dealing with story-points (vs. say, technical points)?

As to the changes in the SE's and 2004 Editions, there's your hot topic. Lucas claims the earlier editions "no longer exist" and LucasFilm's line is along the "always intended" and "how he sees the films today." Regardless of how many of us hate that attitude, when has it ever come up that the new changes contradict some piece of EU "History" that needs to then be thrown out or revised?

And of course George's stories are G-Level canon, but that's not to say his references to props prove that Wars ships are actually tiny models in front of blue screens, rather than "real starships" in-universe, or that the characters are all actors. ; )


Still, it would be cool if in a future DVD, Lucas first dons a Yoda mask before giving his commentary!

[Stravo]

I assume Force Storms are strictly a Dark side ability. Can't see much leeway on a light sider throwing around something that can chew up starfleets and has no other redeeming qualitites.

[Kurgan]

The fact that Yoda "uses" it in AOTC seems to indicate that Jedi can use it, even if it's rare. Unless you want to assume that Yoda was using the Dark Side during that fight.

Yoda never "used" Force Lightning in AOTC. He deflected Dooku's first lightning bolt, which sent part of it back in Dooku's direction. He completely absorbed/neutralized subsequent bolts.

It might be possible for Jedi to generate lightning the way some Sith do, but I doubt that they ever would, at least not against a living being. Jedi are opposed to using the Force as a weapon. Luke is the only slacker in this regard; he once used the force to choke out a couple of guards at Jabba's palace, which I would consider a dubious act at best, based on Yoda's instructions to him. Of course, Luke seems to be constantly flirting with the Dark Side, for some reason.

Semantics. He "controlled it." To me it's like if say some guy rushed you with a knife, and in the struggle, you guided the knife instead to stick the bad guy instead of you, and then claimed that you didn't "use" a knife to win the fight. Or perhaps this example is more akin to grabbing the knife away from the attacker and then stabbing him with it.

Note in the battle that there is a scene where Yoda and Dooku both appear to be simultaneously casting bolts at each other that meet in mid air. This is in contrast to the previous "here Yoda, I toss it, then you do this CG crap to "catch it" and send it back then I block it and it hits the wall in flames" scene. It looks like Yoda is just casting lightning at him. Or are we supposed to assume that Yoda and Dooku are just bouncing a single lightning bolt back and forth between them at high speed? (Jedi Pong)

Looking just at the film, it appears that we can't simply rule out "Jedi cannot use Lightning, and Yoda is no different." Perhaps they know how, but, it's a Jedi principle to let the enemy take the first shot in cases like this.

As far as using the Force for attacking, that's nonesense. Maybe Yoda wanted to err on the side of caution with Luke (sensing his aggressive tendencies) or became a pacifist in his old age. But note how the Jedi use Force push against their foes in the prequels. Oh, I get it, those aren't "living beings" right? And Anakin doesn't count because he's proto-Vader. However, Yoda uses the Force against Dooku, he just does it in "self defense" rather than taking the first swing. That's the distinction I see, that it should (ideally) be defensive. But once your enemy throws the first punch, you can get medieval on his ass.

Then there's all the under-handed stuff about using the Force NOT to attack directly (lightning, choke, push) but just using it to enhance your killing spree (saber attacks, martial arts skills, acrobatics, pulling away weapons to leave your foes defenseless, mind tricks to sneak up, etc)


All this "intention" stuff is somewhat murky.

Are we talking a Bhagavad Gita type thing were we say "as long as you kill your enemies without hating them" it's "okay"? (Ie: do your duty without picking up negative karma)

[Kurgan]

Well now there's the rub.

Just look at our various debates about the nature of "evil." It's been argued that you can have good intentions and still use horrendous violence.

Couldn't a Jedi just justify some violent actions in his mind by calling on the "greater good"? Ie: use a Force storm to destroy a fleet that's headed on a BDZ mission to some heavily populated planet?

Or maybe a low level Storm that doesn't necessarily destroy everything in its path (just damage equipment and knock people unconscious without killing them)?

Or is this "intention" stuff just something that has to be evaluated moment for moment to determine if something is "good side" or "dark side"?

The argument could be made that it's only POSSIBLE to tap into certain powers (like lightning say) by using anger, and for this reason they are always prone to the Dark Side. However, that doesn't mean a Jedi couldn't use them necessarily, he'd just have to weigh the consequences of getting angry once.

[Connor MacLeod]

I assume Force Storms are strictly a Dark side ability. Can't see much leeway on a light sider throwing around something that can chew up starfleets and has no other redeeming qualitites.

Not necessarily. The Star Wars Encyclopedia I believe implies that (small?) groups of Jedi could also generate Force storms.

Tales of the Jedi suggests that thousands of Jedi working togehter ignited a near-extinction event on the planet (sort of reinforced by the notion that they "leveled" a number of temples and ignited massive firestorms.)

[Connor MacLeod]

I agree with you. I too have balked at the "I always intended" stuff that Lucas lets fly every so often. But how about when he says something that doesn't contradict what we see onscreen? Or stuff dealing with story-points (vs. say, technical points)?

If it doesn't contradict onscreen, then its usable as a clarification of ambiguity. Of course, its still treated the same way other dialogue and textual data is (subordinate to visuals - ie like with Trek.) Lucas has generated some frankly ludicrious notions.

As to the changes in the SE's and 2004 Editions, there's your hot topic. Lucas claims the earlier editions "no longer exist" and LucasFilm's line is along the "always intended" and "how he sees the films today."

Lucas has changed his mind often enough that one can generally not put too much faith in the certainty of many of his statements.

Regardless of how many of us hate that attitude, when has it ever come up that the new changes contradict some piece of EU "History" that needs to then be thrown out or revised?[

There are instances I believe, although I can't immediately call any to mind.

And of course George's stories are G-Level canon, but that's not to say his references to props prove that Wars ships are actually tiny models in front of blue screens, rather than "real starships" in-universe, or that the characters are all actors. ; )

The "G-level" canon hierarchy is annoying because it implies that George is the final say on what is and is not canon, which then indicates that he can override the movies if he wants to (which is ludicrous.)

Still, it would be cool if in a future DVD, Lucas first dons a Yoda mask before giving his commentary!

It would be scary, ,although appropriate somehow.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I assume Force Storms are strictly a Dark side ability. Can't see much leeway on a light sider throwing around something that can chew up starfleets and has no other redeeming qualitites.

Not necessarily. The Star Wars Encyclopedia I believe implies that (small?) groups of Jedi could also generate Force storms.

Tales of the Jedi suggests that thousands of Jedi working togehter ignited a near-extinction event on the planet (sort of reinforced by the notion that they "leveled" a number of temples and ignited massive firestorms.)

A secondary source (its identity escapes me at the moment) claimed that the cross-system-Star Destroyer-throwing feat accomplished by the combined power of the Jedi praxeum's students was a variant on Force Storms.

[Kurgan]

The "G-level" canon hierarchy is annoying because it implies that George is the final say on what is and is not canon, which then indicates that he can override the movies if he wants to (which is ludicrous.)

That's it, in a nutshell. I'm saying, sure it's stupid, it's silly, it's nonsensical, but if that's the canon policy that Lucas & his company is putting forth, well?

I guess it could be like Dune where fans are saying "who gives a fuck, canon is what I want it to be" (to sum up anyway, not intended to start a flame war there please).

This is the main argument in Star Wars it seems. On the one hand you have folks saying that Lucas is God, on the other hand you have people saying Lucas is ruining Star Wars. At least here we don't have the luxury of blaming the "ruination" (that we percieve) on somebody who took over after the creator's death or against his wishes.

I will admit, my own personal feelings on it are mixed. On the one hand I like it when Lucas overrides something that I thought was silly. On the other hand I dislike it when Lucas overrides something that I thought was cool or good enough already. I admit as the owner of the franchise he has the right to do it, I just wish he wouldn't mess with stuff that's fine (but then it's fine in my opinion, all fans don't agree on everything). And the changing his mind then claiming it was his original intention (or similar excuse) often grates on my nerves as a fan.

Btw, you guys wouldn't be talking about the acclaimed Kevin J. Anderson, writer of "quality" Star Wars & Dune Expanded Universe Literature would you? heh ; )

[drachefly]

I would suggest that perhaps Yoda's advice to Luke about not using the force to attack was not a direct statement that using the force to attack is morally wrong. The issue could be that a direct force attack is more tempting toward the dark side than a swing of a lightsaber or a shot from a blaster; or in the other direction, more tempting toward the dark side than using the force to jump or react. This would make the advice more of a reliable strategy in staying light than the actual boundary-line between light and dark. It is a procedural safeguard, sort of like a set of professional ethics, or only using the deadbolt on your door so you never lock yourself out by mistake (yes, these are somewhat wide-ranging examples, but procedural safeguards are a rather broad category).

The examples people have already made about how these attacks could be considered 'light' can be recycled in this light.


In a slightly different direction... lightning itself, in particular, Yoda's use of it: it may be that he knew Dooku could defend against it, but it would be tiring. So, the extraordinary suffering lightning can cause would not be realized, but the lightning even in being dispelled harmlessly would fulfil a valid tactical purpose.

Like, suppose Yoda and Dooku were playing chess, but Yoda was under the restriction that he could not checkmate using a threat from his knights. That doesn't mean he couldn't use one to fork Dooku's king against his queen.

[Aquatain]

I think what matters is that Yoda entered the fight with no malice towards Dooku,his intent is to save Obi-wan and Anakin from destruction not to kill Dooku..This is what matters not the specifics of what kind of powers he used.
If Yoda had entered the fight for Revenge or hatred it would't matter if he used Lightning or lightsaber he would still have made a move towards the Dark side.

[Kurgan]

"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack."

And he cuts off Luke's "why" of course.

I interpret that as Yoda's talking about an IDEAL. What "A Jedi" does (like "what a gentleman does" or "what a Christian does" or "what an American does" whatever system you're putting forth).

It may be that the Jedi actually teach this thing, like a party platform (even if their members don't all follow it). It may be that the Jedi Do use the Force for attack, and it's just that Yoda has modified his teachings since the disasterous events of the Prequel Trilogy. Who knows...

But that's my interpretation. Using the Force for attack... bad juju may be in store, says Yoda's opinion.

There seem to be a few of distinct positions here in all this:

1) That Lightning is automatically a "Dark Side" power, and thus using it makes one evil or puts one on the "Dark path" (from which only exceptional individuals can free themselves, as we've seen).

2) That Lightning is a neutral power. That its the "intention" of the user that determines if it's a "good side" or "dark side" act.

3) That Lightning is neutral and its the degree of its usage that determines if it's a "good side" or "dark side" act.

4) Some combination of 2 & 3.

If we assume #1, we have to explain away Yoda's actions in Episode 2 somehow. If we assume #2, we can still explain away lightning's rare usage by saying it's simply a difficult trick to master or simply doesn't find a lot of use in the typical Jedi's line of work. Saber dueling is also apparently rare, but many Jedi are skilled in it. The whole "intention" thing is very complex, needless to say. The Jedi do employ violence quite often. Regardless of how they justify it. Is their justification more valid for avoiding the Dark Side than the Sith's? Are the Sith truly evil, or just angry? Etc. It's a fun discussion.. ; )

[Tychu]

The fact that Yoda "uses" it in AOTC seems to indicate that Jedi can use it, even if it's rare. Unless you want to assume that Yoda was using the Dark Side during that fight.

After all, couldn't he have simply "absorbed" it and that's it? Why did he "retransmit it" back at Dooku?


Then again maybe Force Lightning is a "secret" and the reason Jedi don't seem to use it more is because they just don't know how to tap into that "trick." Or perhaps it is something that requires more power than the typical Jedi has, and the Sith, being more powerful than "any Jedi" can use it. Yoda was just lucky to witness the power so he could mess with it, but not produce his own lightning, only catch and toss back Dooku's bolt.

Anyway, those are just wild speculation, but the films shows that Yoda can at least control lightning, and he's a Jedi, so that answers the question. Dooku's also a former Jedi. ; ) Until AOTC we only had a Sith doing it (Palpy).

I know it isnt cannon or anything but before Ep2 wasnt there a picture of Yoda standing on Degobah holding up his finger like ET and there was a spark that seems like force lightning?

[Kurgan]

I saw that too. I have no idea where or when it's from however.