Israel Kills 3 Egyptian Soldiers

[Aaron]

CBC

JERUSALEM - The Israeli army Thursday launched a high-level investigation into the killing of three Egyptian soldiers on the border between Egypt and Gaza.

Israel's military quickly apologized, saying a tank fired a shell at the Egyptians after mistaking them for Palestinian militants.

"We are really and truly sorry and we have offered the Egyptians aid," said Israel's Gaza commander Col. David Menachem.

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon called Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak with his "deepest apologies," said a statement from his office.

Egyptian security officials said the victims of the attack, which occurred along the Philadelphi Road, a patrol zone along the border, were members of the Central Security Forces.

Egypt's foreign minister issued a statement condemning the shooting, saying the apology wasn't enough.

"We demand that the Israeli authorities conduct an immediate, thorough and comprehensive investigation into the circumstances that led to this incident, and present an explanation," Aboul Gheit said.

The two countries signed a peace deal in 1979, but often have shaky relations.

Israeli forces patrolling the area had been advised three Palestinians were planting bombs in the area and were ordered to fire on them. But they mistakenly fired on Egyptian security forces helping to patrol the zone for arms smuggling from Egypt into Gaza.

Egypt has offered to help maintain order in the Gaza Strip after Israel's planned withdrawl from the area next year.

Oops.

[Dark Primus]

That will probably heat up the tensions between the countries a little.

[Aaron]

That will probably heat up the tensions between the countries a little.

Are there actual tensions? I though things had been calm since Egypt reconigsed Israel's right to exist in the late 70's.

[Imperial Overlord]

There are a lot of tensions. They are still at peace and maintain a relationship with each other.

[Dark Primus]

That will probably heat up the tensions between the countries a little.

Are there actual tensions? I though things had been calm since Egypt reconigsed Israel's right to exist in the late 70's.

To be honest I don't know, but I have always thought there has been high tension between those countries? Maybe I am wrong.

[Aaron]

To be honest I don't know, but I have always thought there has been high tension between those countries? Maybe I am wrong.

Well I know that there were tensions prior to the addmittance by the Egyptians that Israel had the right to exist. I have no idea what the situation is now though. The article suggests that they both still have troops on the border though. So there must be something going on.

[Imperial Overlord]

Gaza (formerly part of Egypt) for one. Palestininian problem for two.

[Aaron]

Gaza (formerly part of Egypt) for one. Palestininian problem for two.

Ahh yes Gaza. What do the Egyptians caree about the plight of the Palestinains? It's not their problem or their business for that matter.

[MKSheppard]

Ahh yes Gaza. What do the Egyptians caree about the plight of the Palestinains? It's not their problem or their business for that matter.

Because Egypt openly abets the Palestinians digging tunnels from Gaza
to Egypt to facilitate arms smuggling into Gaza. Or at least turns a blind
eye; there was an incident where the IDF blew up a tunnel they had found
and across the border, smoke began coming out of an egyptian police station.

The Palestinians are useful idiots for the Egyptians to do low intensity
war on Israel without technically violating the peace treaty.

[Imperial Overlord]

The entire Middle East cares. That's why it is such a big problem. It casts its shadow over everything.

[frigidmagi]

The Arab nations around Israel use the Palestinian plight to keep the masses stirred up against the Jews. Meanwhile Palestinian refugee camps are decades old and still worst than a dog kennal in those nations.

[Imperial Overlord]

Hypocracy, cynicism, and manipulation of the masses are not uniquely western sins.

[Aaron]

Because Egypt openly abets the Palestinians digging tunnels from Gaza
to Egypt to facilitate arms smuggling into Gaza. Or at least turns a blind
eye; there was an incident where the IDF blew up a tunnel they had found
and across the border, smoke began coming out of an egyptian police station.

The Palestinians are useful idiots for the Egyptians to do low intensity
war on Israel without technically violating the peace treaty.

Would you mind providing some proof as to the tunnels, thats the first I've heard of them.

The entire Middle East cares. That's why it is such a big problem. It casts its shadow over everything

They only care because it's Jews opressing Muslims. If it was Jews opressing Christains they wouldn't give a shit.

The Arab nations around Israel use the Palestinian plight to keep the masses stirred up against the Jews. Meanwhile Palestinian refugee camps are decades old and still worst than a dog kennal in those nations.

Can't argue with either of those points. As far as I'm concerned there 100% true.

[Ma Deuce]

The Palestinians are useful idiots for the Egyptians to do low intensity
war on Israel without technically violating the peace treaty.

All the while the Americans pour billions into Egypt (including military aid like those 800 M1A1 tanks they now have) so they pretend they don't hate Israel anymore...

[Plekhanov]

Gaza (formerly part of Egypt) for one. Palestininian problem for two.

Ahh yes Gaza. What do the Egyptians caree about the plight of the Palestinains? It's not their problem or their business for that matter.

The Arab governments couldn’t care less about the Palestinians (witness their treatment of refuges), the pretence that they do suits the Arab governments in diverting their own citizens (who on the whole they also couldn’t give a shit about) attention from the corruption, mismanagement and brutality endemic in middle east governments. It also suits the Israeli government in that they can maintain the pretence that Israel is locked in some kind of a vaguely equal struggle against the Arab world rather than Israel (with limitless backing from the US) persecuting the Palestinians whilst Arab governments pay lip service to fighting for their Muslim ‘brothers and sisters’.

[tharkûn]

It also suits the Israeli government in that they can maintain the pretence that Israel is locked in some kind of a vaguely equal struggle against the Arab world rather than Israel (with limitless backing from the US) persecuting the Palestinians whilst Arab governments pay lip service to fighting for their Muslim ‘brothers and sisters’.

Yes that is why the Knesset signed peace deals with both Jordan and Egypt and unilaterally pulled out of Lebannon

Israel gave up the entire bloody Sinai because they valued not having to fight Egypt more the benefits of holding all that land. Right now the government is withdrawing from loads of territory because the country is no longer willing to pay through nose so a bunch of religious extremists can live out their little fantasies.

Israel would LOVE to find a way to drop the costs it currently has fielding its conventional forces and rely on a nuclear deterrant; it just isn't practical given the large minority bloc of idiots in the electorate and the assclown Muslim terrorists.

[Plekhanov]

I must say I'm a little tharkun is your post in some way supposed to be a rebuttal to mine?

It also suits the Israeli government in that they can maintain the pretence that Israel is locked in some kind of a vaguely equal struggle against the Arab world rather than Israel (with limitless backing from the US) persecuting the Palestinians whilst Arab governments pay lip service to fighting for their Muslim ‘brothers and sisters’.

Yes that is why the Knesset signed peace deals with both Jordan and Egypt

How does the fact that Israel signed peace deals with Arab governments counter any of my points? Notice I said that both sides had an interest in maintaining the “pretence” of a conflict.

and unilaterally pulled out of Lebannon

Yes that’s very generous of them pulling out of the country they previously “unilaterally” invaded.

Anyway this is a complete RED HERRING and in no way addresses my post?

Israel gave up the entire bloody Sinai because they valued not having to fight Egypt more the benefits of holding all that land.

They gave up a patch of desert they previously illegally invaded and occupied and in return got Egypt to break the alliance of Arab nations that’s just so generous of them.

Anyway this is a complete RED HERRING, what the fuck has it got to do with my post?

Right now the government is withdrawing from loads of territory because the country is no longer willing to pay through nose so a bunch of religious extremists can live out their little fantasies.

I take it by “loads” you mean shutting down the illegal “settlements” housing a whole 8000 nutters in Gaza, in return for which Sharon expects to annex half of the West Bank, yeah that’s just so fucking generous.

Anyway this is a complete RED HERRING, what the fuck has it got to do with my post?

Israel would LOVE to find a way to drop the costs it currently has fielding its conventional forces and rely on a nuclear deterrant; it just isn't practical given the large minority bloc of idiots in the electorate and the assclown Muslim terrorists.

Well here’s an idea why doesn’t Israel pull the fuck out of the occupied territories and stop the appalling repression of the Palestinians which is creating the very terrorism they pretend to be fighting. With the main motivation for Palestinian resistance gone the Sharon can then build a “separation wall” a mile high on the green line and the Israeli population will be safe, is that easy enough for you.

Anyway this is a complete RED HERRING, what the fuck has it got to do with my post?

[Ma Deuce]

Yes that’s very generous of them pulling out of the country they previously “unilaterally” invaded.

A country that was being used by the PLO (among other groups) to launch terrorist, artillery, rocket and mortar attacks against Israel. What did you expect them to do?

[Xenophobe3691]

Yes that’s very generous of them pulling out of the country they previously “unilaterally” invaded.

A country that was being used by the PLO (among other groups) to launch terrorist, artillery, rocket and mortar attacks against Israel. What did you expect them to do?

And Syria also invaded. Who do you think controls Lebanon nowadays?

[Plekhanov]

Yes that’s very generous of them pulling out of the country they previously “unilaterally” invaded.

A country that was being used by the PLO (among other groups) to launch terrorist, artillery, rocket and mortar attacks against Israel. What did you expect them to do?

And Syria also invaded. Who do you think controls Lebanon nowadays?

And this addresses my point about the benefits to Israel of maintaining the pretence that it is locked in a conflict with the whole of the Arab world how exactly?

[Ace Pace]

And Syria also invaded. Who do you think controls Lebanon nowadays?

Good question, with Syria supposly pulling out (what happened with that?)

[tharkûn]

How does the fact that Israel signed peace deals with Arab governments counter any of my points? Notice I said that both sides had an interest in maintaining the “pretence” of a conflict.

Yes and repeating your BS doesn't make it smell better. Look at Israeli expenditures on defense, it is a abysmally high amount, even higher per capita than the US. For a mere "pretense" Israeli spends way too frikking much.

Yes that’s very generous of them pulling out of the country they previously “unilaterally” invaded.

No try very selfish. Israel pulled out because the government didn't want to foot the cost both in blood and gold to stay there.

They gave up a patch of desert they previously illegally invaded and occupied and in return got Egypt to break the alliance of Arab nations that’s just so generous of them.

No it is so selfish. That "patch of desert" also happened to have a few working oil wells, and was extremely cost effective defensive turf. Israel gave up Sinai not because they wanted to be generous nor because they were forced to, but because it was in their best interests to do so, particularly considering the type of incentives Carter was dishing out for everyone to play nice.

I take it by “loads” you mean shutting down the illegal “settlements” housing a whole 8000 nutters in Gaza, in return for which Sharon expects to annex half of the West Bank,

It has already precipitated the collapse of one governing coalition and was voted down in Likud, exactly how much more can you realistically expect to pass the Knesset under the present circumstances.

Israel is pulling out of numerous religious settlements, why? Because they feel benevolent? Because Sharon sees things from the other side? No, because it is cheaper to build the barrier and remove the far flung nutters from the equation than to maintain the status quo.

stop the appalling repression of the Palestinians which is creating the very terrorism they pretend to be fighting.

Because:
A. It won't stop the terrorism. Islamic Jihad and Hamas don't give a rat's ass what Israel does, they are quite literally up to push the Jews into the sea.
B. Soft politicians lose elections. Israel's most decorated general of all time was canned because he was not seen as strong enough on defense. If the governing party doesn't go hardline and there is the inevitable upswing in bombings they can expect to get hammered at the polls. This ignores the problem of assembling a working coalition of the parties who aren't completely beholden to the nutter population.

With the main motivation for Palestinian resistance gone the Sharon can then build a “separation wall” a mile high on the green line and the Israeli population will be safe, is that easy enough for you.

It will never pass the Knesset, just getting the measures you scoff at required breaking one governing coalition as well as failing to pass within the PM's own party. The Knesset has plenty of hawks, religious nutters, and those out for revenge ... getting your plan through is electoral suicide.

Israel wants security, and they have previously signed binding peace treaties with whomever is willing to sign them. Far from propogating a myth of Israel vs the Arab world, at every turn Israel has offered to make peace with whomever is willing ... just so long as the quid pro quo involved actual security garuntees for Israel. This is why Israel sacrificed a very strong forward position in the Sinai to get peace with Egypt. This is why Israel repeatedly offered Jordan the West Bank in exchange for binding peace. This is why Israel took Yassir Arafat who was slowly rotting away in Tunis and essentially gave him wide swaths of Palestinian territory to run.

Nobody wants to spend the kind of money Israel does on defense; when presented with credible alternatives, such as the electorate defines them, Israel has no problem ending "phony wars".

If Israel seriously wanted to maintain a fake war they would never had made countless offers of peace to every Arab state who refused to recognize their existence.

[Coyote]

And this addresses my point about the benefits to Israel of maintaining the pretence that it is locked in a conflict with the whole of the Arab world how exactly?

Israel does not benefit from the pretense of conflict. The society suffers, Jewish immigration is abysmally low because of perceived danger, there is a serious social problem faced by soldiers who refuse to carry out operations in the Occupied Territories...

Demographically, by hanging onto the Territories, Israel will suffer a huge majority of Arabs very soon and it will be hard to maintain a Jewish majority.

Many young Israelis leave because of the problems. Many leave because they don't wantg their kids drafted. Outside investment is way lower than it should be, considering Israel's high technological base and cutting-edge cancer research.

The occupation and ongoing debates and arguments about the religious rightists and their Settlements, and the lack of peace and tability, is a constantly bleeding wound in Israeli society.

Israel would be much, much better off by securing peace and borders with the neighbors and leaving the Territories. And most of them know this-- two things prevent a pullout: one, the Settlers have an enormous amount of influence in the government, and two: many of their enemies are devoted to the destruction of all Israel and the deaths of all Jews. A pullout would be seen as a sign of weakness, and attacks would increase.

[Montcalm]

Israeli forces patrolling the area had been advised three Palestinians were planting bombs in the area and were ordered to fire on them. But they mistakenly fired on Egyptian security forces helping to patrol the zone for arms smuggling from Egypt into Gaza.

And where did they got this,from the Israeli Secret Service,or a Jewish settler?

[Sea Skimmer]

Good question, with Syria supposly pulling out (what happened with that?)

Nothing so far. It wasn't the first and I highly doubt it will be the last announced Syrian pullout from Lebanon. They claim (well at least they did up through the 80's) the whole country as there own territory and holding at least part of it is very valuable to their air defence network, so it shouldn't be surprising if they don't follow through.