Clonetrooper vs. Battledroid comparison

[The Silence and I]

I am aware of those specially made droids, if nothing else the Droid General in ROTS ought to showcase what the technology is capable of. My point is that IMO cost is not an excuse for pathetic combat droids. There are possibly a great many reasons the droids suck, but as I see it a far, far superior droid could be manufactored for negligable cost difference. The computer hardware the battle droids showcase is so sub-par I would not be surprised* if the trade federation had to pay as much or more for the inferior droids as they would a superior droid simply because no one produces such antiquated computers in the numbers needed for an army.

I am guessing the droids use some kind of future PDA equivalent processor--a lot of demand thus highly manufactored, but has no need for EHz range power or whatever ought to fit in there. Whatever the Trade Federation actually chose it appears barely able to animate a droid and run a sentience program at the same time. The body could be a custom modification of a civilian product--say a "build it yourself toy robot kit" or something, and the end result may be very cheap indeed--but unless those parts sell for nickels and dimes, comtemporary (or at least within the last 1000 years) technology is not going to be staggering more expensive and will offer combat gains well beyond their price tag.

*Please note, I said I would not be surprised if that were true; my PDA example could certainly offer a way out of that end.

[Imperial Overlord]

The issue isn't whether or not the SW universe can build really good droids. We know they can. Obviously, they aren't cheap enough to be used as cannon fodder.

[Gil Hamilton]

I don't see why even cheap battledroids wouldn't have alot of advantages over clonetroopers due to their nature.

For one thing, they are machines. This gives them alot of advantages.

One thing is that machines of the same time and software should have no trouble working together better than clonetroopers. Clonetroopers can only communicate with each other verbally and send pictures to each other via camera equipment. This is not only slow, but subject to the skill of communication by the sender and interpretation of the receiver, leading to communication "static" (this is the term I learned in a media class). Droids shouldn't have this problem. They can broadcast to each other exact data, visuals through their cameras, precise measurements, et cetera and the received information is just data to them, it's exactly as real to them as information gathered themselves. Plus, they should be able to process it and respond much faster due to their superior processing power. This should give them excellent battlefield coordination. Combine this with the fact that machines are excellent in taking orders and giving orders (hierarchy is important for computers) and the fact that sentient AIs in StarWars are dirt cheap, they should be much better at working in a group.

Another thing is that memory is just data to a droid. If you upload the memories of one droid and download it in another, to the droid that receives the memory, it's completely real to them. This sort of makes reality a bit of a relative thing for a droid, but it's extremely advantagous to a combat droid, because you could get a bunch of droids who have been drilled and fielded in battle, then recover them, make a copy of their memories, compile it into a database, and download it into every single droid in your production line. If you are a battledroid manufacturer, this is good because you could literally create vast armies of battle veterans with many thousands of hours of actual combat experience that as far as the droid is concerned is completely real to them, straight out of the box.

The ability of machines to download memories is suprisingly useful. Men have to learn stuff and this could take a while, and they aren't guaranteed to be able to recall any of that information at a moments notice. Machines don't have this problem. If you download an encyclopaedic database into a droids harddrive, it can't forget it, and the ability to recall any bit of information is based on how rapidly it can search the database. Plus, it's not like they should have problems with space. Remember that StarWars harddrives are so high density, that Artoo was able to store the complete technical specs of a moon sized battlestation in it's memory and received it from a disk the size of a floppy! Even with a harddrive a fraction of the size of Artoo's a battledroid should have space in it's memory for vast sums of information, and should have the ability to read it at a moments notice (after all, it didn't take Artoo hours and hours to save the DS plans to his memory). Humans can't do this.

Plus, there is the advantage that machines run on servos and actuators. Humans don't send precise data to their muscles and it takes a long time for humans to precisely control their muscles. In fact, most people can't. Training a bodies reflexes takes a long time and requires constant maintaince and physical conditioning. Does anyone think that they can hold their finger exactly a foot from the end of their nose and hold it there for a minute? I doubt very much anyone could do it, but it would be no challenge at all for a droid, since it could instantly do the math on how exactly it should hold it's arm and send it to it's actuators and make them move precisely. (for reference, this is no challenge for even 20th century mechanical arms, let alone super high tech futuristic robots). Imagine the advantages this would give a droid aiming a gun or fighting hand to hand, considering how quickly a machine and thing and react?


I know, I know how people are going to respond. I completely acknowledge the superiority of clonetroopers over Trade Federation Battledroids. I'm not arguing that. But I'm just pointing out that I can't see any intrinsic reason why human soldiers would be better than droid robots given the level of technology and robotics skills that exist in StarWars. In StarWars and sci-fi in general, there seems to be a sort of bias that people have that humans have some special something that makes them inherently better than machines and thus victorious in conflicts against them, but I don't see it at all. Oh well, feel free to jump all over me.

[Kurgan]

Especially since the factor that is often ascribed to humans in order to triumph over "mere machines" is the "independent spirit" and the "desire for freedom and progress" etc. etc.

Supposedly the clones have had all that stuff "genetically removed" so they are more docile and will obey orders without question.

Clones take longer to produce, and are likely more expensive (feeding and training them).

Are droids limited due to philosophical restraints? (Like some SW variation on the Butlerian Jihad of 'Dune'?)

[Aaron]

I don't see why even cheap battledroids wouldn't have alot of advantages over clonetroopers due to their nature.

For one thing, they are machines. This gives them alot of advantages.

One thing is that machines of the same time and software should have no trouble working together better than clonetroopers. Clonetroopers can only communicate with each other verbally and send pictures to each other via camera equipment. This is not only slow, but subject to the skill of communication by the sender and interpretation of the receiver, leading to communication "static" (this is the term I learned in a media class). Droids shouldn't have this problem. They can broadcast to each other exact data, visuals through their cameras, precise measurements, et cetera and the received information is just data to them, it's exactly as real to them as information gathered themselves. Plus, they should be able to process it and respond much faster due to their superior processing power. This should give them excellent battlefield coordination. Combine this with the fact that machines are excellent in taking orders and giving orders (hierarchy is important for computers) and the fact that sentient AIs in StarWars are dirt cheap, they should be much better at working in a group.

You forget that the intial group of clones had been training together for 10 years. That should give them an imennse advantage. I can testify that if a group of soldiers is together long enough than they get to the point were they can anticipate each other well enough that it's almost like telepathy.

[Imperial Overlord]

You still haven't proved that your advanced droids are cheap. We are talking about a quantity over quality strategy here.

[Gil Hamilton]

You forget that the intial group of clones had been training together for 10 years. That should give them an imennse advantage. I can testify that if a group of soldiers is together long enough than they get to the point were they can anticipate each other well enough that it's almost like telepathy.

Yes, but it took them ten years. Droids can work together and read each others minds right out of the box.

[Gil Hamilton]

You still haven't proved that your advanced droids are cheap. We are talking about a quantity over quality strategy here.

These aren't "advanced droids" I'm talking about. Copying experiences from one batch of droids and downloading them into new batches as part of their memories to give them real experience isn't an "advanced" concept. Given how dense information can be stored on StarWars, downloading a encyclopaedic database of information into a battledroid and taking advantage of the fact that machines don't forget things or take a long time to recall information compared to a human isn't an "advanced" concept. The fact that machines use actuators that can make tiny precise and accurate positioning isn't an "advanced" concept (you just need to watch a CAD plotter or an automated robot arm so see we can do it with todays technology). The fact that machines don't need to communicate verbally but rather by high speed data transmission isn't "advanced" either (computers do this amazingly effectively already). All of this is part of the nature of the beast when it comes to robots.

Hell, wasn't there a 3PO unit in one of the recent Clone Wars novels that, by itself, wrote a program for itself to simulate intoxication in under a few seconds on the fly? Consider how advanced and creative an AI you'd need to achieve that and the fact that 3PO units are so cheap that Anakin, a slave on a backwoods planet, was able to afford to buy a 3PO kit on his meagre income. The Trade Federation has vast resources, the sort of robots I described can't be all that prohibitively expensive for them.

[Aaron]

Yes, but it took them ten years. Droids can work together and read each others minds right out of the box.

I beg to differ, the droids in AOTC seem to act as individuals, they never demonstrate any teamwork. In fact a Super-BattleDroid smashes a standard Battledroid because it got in it's line of fire. That doesn't speak highly of their teamwork to me.

[The Silence and I]

Gil, your points make perfect sense. A combat droid should have that potential, I don't think anyone will dispute the advantages of instant experience and real time high density communication and so one. I guess my over all point is that the combat droids seen on screen have been intentionally neutered by a few millenia's worth of technology. I don't know why, but I am very confident price is not an excuse from any angle I've looked at it from.

I mean, even if the droids cannot shoot straight they should easily have constant internal communication, right? Instead they need vocal communication to give orders to lower droids and alert each other--there is no cost-based excuse for this, they already have recievers for the carrier signal keeping them animated in TMP, use the bloody technology!

Uber SW tecnology-based droids should make mincmeat of the Gungans--they have their personal shields sure, but there are large gaps around the shields. Shoot the row behind them, shoot out the feet of the shield holders, shoot the shield rims! Such precision is what machines excel at, so a droid's inability to hit a human 10 m away with no cover is a sign of deliberate neutering. I feel a little like I am beating a dead horse so I'll stop now with that.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Yes, but it took them ten years. Droids can work together and read each others minds right out of the box.

I beg to differ, the droids in AOTC seem to act as individuals, they never demonstrate any teamwork. In fact a Super-BattleDroid smashes a standard Battledroid because it got in it's line of fire. That doesn't speak highly of their teamwork to me.

I completely acknowledge the superiority of clonetroopers over Trade Federation Battledroids. I'm not arguing that. But I'm just pointing out that I can't see any intrinsic reason why human soldiers would be better than droid robots given the level of technology and robotics skills that exist in StarWars.

[Imperial Overlord]

Considering the Trad Fed is using remote control systems, arguing about superior brain power for their cannon fodder droids is a little silly.

For whatever reasons (cost or desire for control being the ones that come to mind) the Trade Fed doesn't build them that smart.

[Aaron]

Considering the Trad Fed is using remote control systems, arguing about superior brain power for their cannon fodder droids is a little silly.

For whatever reasons (cost or desire for control being the ones that come to mind) the Trade Fed doesn't build them that smart.

I thought they had removed the dependance on a control ship from the type 1 Battledroids and that the SuperBattleDroids had independant control systems from the begining.

If they still depended on control signals from a ship than the Republic forces could have jammed the signals at Geonosis.

[Imperial Overlord]

I can't answer that, but clearly brains aren't a priority.

[Gil Hamilton]

Trade Federation Battledroids, at least the ones used against the Gungans on Tatoonine even seem to have features that would make them even more expensive than you'd think. One example that comes to mind is that they actually need a constant carrier signal not only to continue moving and not fold up into their storage form, but also to physically hold together. This is kind of disturbing that their droids actually physically held together by some powered system, one that if they lose power, the droids actually fall to pieces. You'd think that making such a system where the droids pieces are held together by some powered system would be more complex than a system where they had joints and such and thus be more expensive.

[Kurgan]

I agree, the droids COULD be a lot better than they are, they just seem deliberately made weak (PLOT DEVICE!!!).

In-universe, perhaps it's a combination of them being used for other things than all out warfare (basic security, mopping up operations, distractions, threats, etc) like conquering the "peaceful" Naboo, fear of droid uprisings (a Butlerian Jihad mentality of some kind), and simple cheap construction.

It seems they put so much time and effort into making the droids act more like individuals, with so many built-in advantages of the technology were wasted.


Still, the movies show the speed of production for droids is far superior to clones. Even if Clones are superior tactically (I chalk it up mainly to the fact that their support equipment is so shiny, new and powerful, purpose-built stuff), adjustments made to the Droids could still be done faster theoretically, whereas modifications to the Clones would take years and still not improve them much (what would they do, make them more musclebound, or smarter?).

[PainRack]

Every single battledroid will have the exact same tactics, and lacks the intelligence necessary to adapt on the fly. If you can't see how this could conceivably be a problem, you aren't trying hard enough.

Maybe you need to reread what I said. You don't NEED to have different tactics for every battledroid.

The reason why everybody practices the contact drill so assidiously is so that when the shit hits the fan, everybody knows exactly what everybody is supposed to do, and its supposed to be the same. On a grunt level, there JUST isn't any reason for there to be creativity. The levels where one requires creativity on a platoon, company or battalion level can easily be replicated by human controllers, something we see happen in lesser canon.

Granted, each unit and each formation has their own particular quirks, but if one wants variety, all one has to do is replicate such quirks into a unit. So, the 1139th Battledroid infantry will reload before charging, whereas the 120th battledroid jump will charge while the grenade is exploding. If I need variation in individual styles, well, again, there are only 6 possible ways for a person to react to enemy fire. Program 1 way into 1/6 of droids, another into another 1/6 of droids etc etc etc.

All the arguments about creativity on the part of clonetroopers can be easily negated by the Trade Federation having some form of military leader and playing the scenario out like some computer gamer, ala Mech Commander style. And with that in place, the basic advantage that a droid army is easier built than a clone army will always mean the clone army is stragetically weaker.

I thought they had removed the dependance on a control ship from the type 1 Battledroids and that the SuperBattleDroids had independant control systems from the begining.

If they still depended on control signals from a ship than the Republic forces could have jammed the signals at Geonosis.

The AOTC script, as well as the novelisation which featured a strike against the command centre backs this up. The droid army temporarily shut down, only to restart on their own accord.

[Adam Reynolds]

The driod army is just plain stupid. They have been seen to have very little tactical depth.
On Naboo
They fall for an obvious diversion and attack the large Gungan Army, they should have stayed in Theed and defended the Capital.
They fail to take advantage of their superior firepower, they fail to use their Droidikas to their highest potental, what they should have done was send only Droidikas and use them to destroy the Gungan sheilds

On Genosis
They fail to have air support or air defense as they are killed by the Gunships
They also have no commanders fighting on the battlefield with their troops

[Darth Wong]

The reason why everybody practices the contact drill so assidiously is so that when the shit hits the fan, everybody knows exactly what everybody is supposed to do, and its supposed to be the same. On a grunt level, there JUST isn't any reason for there to be creativity.

How many grunts do you have per NCO? There's a command structure devolving to small units, specifically because a certain amount of initiative is required on the ground.

Granted, each unit and each formation has their own particular quirks, but if one wants variety, all one has to do is replicate such quirks into a unit. So, the 1139th Battledroid infantry will reload before charging, whereas the 120th battledroid jump will charge while the grenade is exploding. If I need variation in individual styles, well, again, there are only 6 possible ways for a person to react to enemy fire. Program 1 way into 1/6 of droids, another into another 1/6 of droids etc etc etc.

It's not impossible to make a combat-effective battledroid with SW technology, but the Trade Federation's cheap battledroids aren't it, and we don't know how expensive human-like AI is, especially when you intend to make millions of the things in a short time (and the whole purpose of the war is to protect your profit margin).

[Meest]

The driod army is just plain stupid. They have been seen to have very little tactical depth.
On Naboo
They fall for an obvious diversion and attack the large Gungan Army, they should have stayed in Theed and defended the Capital.
They fail to take advantage of their superior firepower, they fail to use their Droidikas to their highest potental, what they should have done was send only Droidikas and use them to destroy the Gungan sheilds

On Genosis
They fail to have air support or air defense as they are killed by the Gunships
They also have no commanders fighting on the battlefield with their troops

Also have to remember there hasn't been formal all out war in a long while in this timeframe. Wasn't it mentioned as 1000 years in TPM? The fact they even had a formal army was threatening. I'm guessing most sectors/worlds had their own defense force mainly, more akin to police than milita/army.

[Kurgan]

"Since the formation of the Republic..."

[Crazedwraith]

[
Hell, wasn't there a 3PO unit in one of the recent Clone Wars novels that, by itself, wrote a program for itself to simulate intoxication in under a few seconds on the fly?

Not a 3PO. It was I-5QY. An older version of a protocol droid. However I-5 is heavillyiy modified from base line. Includes lasers in his finger advanced sensdor and vocoders. As well as having his 'creativity dampners' dissconnected.

[Gil Hamilton]

Not a 3PO. It was I-5QY. An older version of a protocol droid. However I-5 is heavillyiy modified from base line. Includes lasers in his finger advanced sensdor and vocoders. As well as having his 'creativity dampners' dissconnected.

Ah, OK. When I heard about it, I was told it was a "protocol droid" and I assumed it was a 3PO. Still, I think my point stand nonetheless.

[PainRack]

How many grunts do you have per NCO? There's a command structure devolving to small units, specifically because a certain amount of initiative is required on the ground.

Depending on the army and formation, 6 to 9. And of course, this doesn't change the fact that there are "officer" droids, as per the VD, which if they are to make sense, should be droid brains of better quality than the normal droidtroopers.

It's not impossible to make a combat-effective battledroid with SW technology, but the Trade Federation's cheap battledroids aren't it, and we don't know how expensive human-like AI is, especially when you intend to make millions of the things in a short time (and the whole purpose of the war is to protect your profit margin).

We both agree that the battledroid army was nerfed, as a result of the TF prejudice. However, that still doesn't change the fact that the clone armies as protrayed on film, ISN"T better than the droid armies because they're more "creative". Rather, its more probably due to their better equipment, combat doctrine and C3 systems, as opposed to the Seperatists unmilitary like nature which was inadequate for the battle and just plain surprise.

[Axis Kast]

Consider that in the cartoons, we saw Battle Droids running up the steps of Muunilist buildings to intercept Republic gunships with their missile packs.

That implies they understand rudimentary strategy - i.e. how to take the high-ground.