New ST-V-SW Site!

[Robert Walper]

Hey guys, check out the mod of the STvsSW forum.

It's a conspiracy I tell you!

[Darth Wong]

What kind of rules could you possibly enforce in an environment where it's considered perfectly acceptable to say that planets blow themselves up in nature all the time?

[Alyeska]

You never know. I intend on herding debates along and keeping people from making fools of themselves. We shall see if I can even do any good.

[Master of Ossus]

You never know. I intend on herding debates along and keeping people from making fools of themselves. We shall see if I can even do any good.

Good luck, Aly. You're gonna need it.

[Robert Walper]

You never know. I intend on herding debates along and keeping people from making fools of themselves. We shall see if I can even do any good.

In this case, resistance may be futile...

[Darth Lucifer]

I admit I wanted to get a ringside seat, so I registered at their site today. I'm not a Rabid Warsie cocksucker or a geeked-out Trekkie ass licker. I'm mostly neutral in all this...but after reviewing all the available evidence, Mike Wong has me convinced the Empire would kick the holy hell living shit out of the UFP.

Good luck, Trek guys. You certainly have a daunting task ahead of you. May the best Universe win!

[wautd]

I admit I wanted to get a ringside seat, so I registered at their site today. I'm not a Rabid Warsie cocksucker or a geeked-out Trekkie ass licker. I'm mostly neutral in all this...but after reviewing all the available evidence, Mike Wong has me convinced the Empire would kick the holy hell living shit out of the UFP.

Good luck, Trek guys. You certainly have a daunting task ahead of you. May the best Universe win!

Its like convincing them an orange has an obvious orange color while they insist its purple. Luck, use of facts or debating skill has nothing to do with it against these guys

[Kurgan]

Just keep telling yourself that. We Warsies get laid all the time and are "cool" and smart, but those Trekkies of course, are the opposite. ; )


Geeks/fanboys are Geeks/fanboys, as far as I'm concerned, a few outstanding examples regardless...

Speak for yourself, just visit that new st-vs-sw site and tell me with a straight face i'm just as bad as one of those idiots.

I said outstanding examples. Most people I know that are fans of Trek or Wars are not nearly so obsessed. None of them have Vs. websites or anything close to that, yet they are fans (watch the material, collect it, etc. ie: like a "normal obsessed fan").

The key here is that not all Trek fans are "trektards" who starred in "Trekkies 2," just like not all Star Wars fans are Curtis Saxton. It's this chest-beating back-patting bandwagon thing that gets me. Yeah, it sucks if some member of your fandom is an embarrassing dork. But that doesn't mean all fans in your franchise are, or that some fans of some other franchise are inherently better.

Want see how easy it is to stereotype all fans of something? Go watch that "Triumph the Insulting Dog meets Star Wars fans" spot Conan O'Brien did back for Episode II. ; )

[wautd]

Want see how easy it is to stereotype all fans of something? Go watch that "Triumph the Insulting Dog meets Star Wars fans" spot Conan O'Brien did back for Episode II. ; )

shut up, I still got nightmares from that stormtrooper that talked like a 50's robot

[Gandalf]

Hey guys, check out the mod of the STvsSW forum.

It's a conspiracy I tell you!

Could think of it as Affirmative Action, nerd style.

[Kurgan]

60's robot? <---- NERD ALERT!


; )


It's just easier to see the "crazies" and "idiots" in somebody else's backyard than it is your own. For every Darkstar, there's a SuperShadow. For every Curtis Saxton there's a Lawrence Krauss. There's smart fans and "stupid" fans.

At least people in my chosen group don't _________! Classic.

I don't propose fans give up their love of their chosen franchise(s), it just might help to realize that the internet is (since it's open to all kinds of people) frequented by idiots and crazies, and that our little microcosm community need not be a true representative of everyone, everywhere, much as we might like to think it is. And if that's obvious to everyone here, then it should show that this kind of arrogance is unjustified.

[Darth Wong]

It's just easier to see the "crazies" and "idiots" in somebody else's backyard than it is your own.

Two points:

1) That does not refute the fact that they are idiots
2) We kick dumbshits like that out of our backyard

For every Darkstar, there's a SuperShadow.

Who's SuperShadow?

[Ghost Rider]

For every Darkstar, there's a SuperShadow.

Who's SuperShadow?

Kurgan's poor attempt to show a rabid warsie on the level of Darkstar.

The problem is that while even when I was on TF.N...Supershadow was never anything close to Darkstar...he was just a nobody who convinced people on the inside scoop of Lucas and things of that nature. He lied and made supposed photomanips of stuff in the PT. He still did so on his website until Lucas' lawyers told him to shove it, because he was charging money for the *inside scoop*.

Not even the same animal here.

[Mange]

You never know. I intend on herding debates along and keeping people from making fools of themselves. We shall see if I can even do any good.

Alyeska, the fact that you're a moderator over there is reassuring. I believe that you're the right person to work in an unbiased way (when it comes to canon issues and the like).

[brianeyci]

Not even the same animal here.

You're right. Charging money for intellectual property that isn't yours is retarted. IMO much worse than anything DS does.

Brian

[General Zod]

Not even the same animal here.

You're right. Charging money for intellectual property that isn't yours is retarted. IMO much worse than anything DS does.

Brian

it's also quite illegal. in addition to being retarded.

[Mange]

For every Darkstar, there's a SuperShadow.

Who's SuperShadow?

SuperShadow is a guy whose real is Mick Suttle and who runs the infamous site SuperShadow.com. Suttle has claimed to be a long-time friend of George Lucas and has for some years posted fake prequel spoilers. He even had a FAQ where the readers could chime in and ask questions directly to "George Lucas", I've an example left:

Will we finally learn more history of The Dark side in Ep 2 and Ep 3? (SuperShadow: George Lucas says: "No.")

Another thing that he published on his site prior to Episode II was a script synopsis with comments by "George Lucas":

"The Jedi Council is deeply disturbed when it learns that the Republic plans to create a clone army. They fear that a great war is in the planning stages. The Jedi Order will undoubtedly find itself caught in the middle during a galaxy-wide war. The Jedi Council believes that war must be thwarted at all cost . . . The Council decides that Anakin must protect Padme and that Obi-Wan must get to the bottom of what Count Dooku and Jango Fett are up to . . . The Council faces additional headaches from various Jedi that are defecting from the Jedi Order. It's dark times for the good guys." (Source: George Lucas)

What surprises me is that people believed in this crap. Today he has a disclaimer on his site saying that he has no personal relationsship with GL, but people still visits his site.

[Kurgan]

For every Darkstar, there's a SuperShadow.

Who's SuperShadow?

Kurgan's poor attempt to show a rabid warsie on the level of Darkstar.

The problem is that while even when I was on TF.N...Supershadow was never anything close to Darkstar...he was just a nobody who convinced people on the inside scoop of Lucas and things of that nature. He lied and made supposed photomanips of stuff in the PT. He still did so on his website until Lucas' lawyers told him to shove it, because he was charging money for the *inside scoop*.

Not even the same animal here.

Granted, there is probably no equivalent to SuperShadow in the Star Trek fandom (that I know of).

One is a Vs. debater accused of having a wall of ignorance and abusing arguments to suit his purpose and being obsessed. The other is a fan who claims insider knowledge of his fandom without proof, spouts false information and has apparently defrauded people in the past.

However, considering that DS is frequently thought of as a "liar" and "idiot" here, I think the comparision is still apt.

Looking for fans who "stand out" on the internet as being poor paragons of their respective fandoms, I think it fits.

Anyway, I'm attacking the (subjective) notion that Star Trek fans as a whole are simply more stupid and more obsessed, than Star Wars fans.

But seeing as the inherent superiority of one group of fans to another seems to be a matter of belief and feeling, rather than fact, perhaps it simply can't be argued objectively. I'll say that I don't see proof that Trek fans are stupider on the whole than Wars fans, or that the worst examples from one are inherently worse than the other.

It sounds like we're discussing political parties, rather than popular sci fi franchises now. ; )

[Ghost Rider]

Who's SuperShadow?

Kurgan's poor attempt to show a rabid warsie on the level of Darkstar.

The problem is that while even when I was on TF.N...Supershadow was never anything close to Darkstar...he was just a nobody who convinced people on the inside scoop of Lucas and things of that nature. He lied and made supposed photomanips of stuff in the PT. He still did so on his website until Lucas' lawyers told him to shove it, because he was charging money for the *inside scoop*.

Not even the same animal here.

Granted, there is probably no equivalent to SuperShadow in the Star Trek fandom (that I know of).

One is a Vs. debater accused of having a wall of ignorance and abusing arguments to suit his purpose and being obsessed. The other is a fan who claims insider knowledge of his fandom without proof, spouts false information and has apparently defrauded people in the past.

However, considering that DS is frequently thought of as a "liar" and "idiot" here, I think the comparision is still apt.

Looking for fans who "stand out" on the internet as being poor paragons of their respective fandoms, I think it fits.

Anyway, I'm attacking the (subjective) notion that Star Trek fans as a whole are simply more stupid and more obsessed, than Star Wars fans.

But seeing as the inherent superiority of one group of fans to another seems to be a matter of belief and feeling, rather than fact, perhaps it simply can't be argued objectively. I'll say that I don't see proof that Trek fans are stupider on the whole than Wars fans, or that the worst examples from one are inherently worse than the other.

It sounds like we're discussing political parties, rather than popular sci fi franchises now. ; )

There are much better ones on TF.N and SW.com to pick from.

Supershadow gained notierity because of his lies more then not.

Darkstar gained his by pure bald stupidity

What one gains through a cunning of sorts versus another almost legnedary ignorance of science is why they aren't the same animal. One man's stupidity is not always the same type as another's.

As for who's fans are better...in many ways the rabid are rabid regardless of sci-fi, thus actually both should be mocked.

[Kurgan]

See the Wikipedia article on SuperShadow.

Not only did he claim in the past (and continues to claim) that he's a close personal friend of Lucas (he used to claim he worked for ILM apparently), he also claims:

- That Lucas is going to allow him (Mickey Suttle) and certain fans of SuperShadow.com to create the Star Wars Sequels (Episodes VII-IX).

- That he invented the concept of Midichlorians.

- To have various insider early scripts of each of the movies (beginning with Episode I, and continuing through Episodes VII-IX).

- That he has several "hot" women (models) for girlfriends. He has featured pictures of them in the past on his site, some of which have been shown to have been simply pictures he borrowed from websites of certain women who denied knowing him.

The site is an odd mixture of ironic statements, imagination and pure BS. A lot of people apparently send in comments (virtually daily) which he responds to with lots of self aggrandizment and alternate Lucas worshipping/bashing. Some believe that it's all a joke, but a lot of folks are simply mad at him for lying and defrauding people (his late "Premium Section" which failed to deliver the exclusive content promised... leading folks to believe he was simply stealing the info from the Official Site).

It's interesting in the sense that reading "Portal" is interesting. It's an oddity, like reading the Weekly World News. That some people seem to take it as truth is just sad, and it makes people want to view his site to see exactly what is it that makes it seem so believable (I guess).

[Kurgan]

Kurgan's poor attempt to show a rabid warsie on the level of Darkstar.

The problem is that while even when I was on TF.N...Supershadow was never anything close to Darkstar...he was just a nobody who convinced people on the inside scoop of Lucas and things of that nature. He lied and made supposed photomanips of stuff in the PT. He still did so on his website until Lucas' lawyers told him to shove it, because he was charging money for the *inside scoop*.

Not even the same animal here.

Granted, there is probably no equivalent to SuperShadow in the Star Trek fandom (that I know of).

One is a Vs. debater accused of having a wall of ignorance and abusing arguments to suit his purpose and being obsessed. The other is a fan who claims insider knowledge of his fandom without proof, spouts false information and has apparently defrauded people in the past.

However, considering that DS is frequently thought of as a "liar" and "idiot" here, I think the comparision is still apt.

Looking for fans who "stand out" on the internet as being poor paragons of their respective fandoms, I think it fits.

Anyway, I'm attacking the (subjective) notion that Star Trek fans as a whole are simply more stupid and more obsessed, than Star Wars fans.

But seeing as the inherent superiority of one group of fans to another seems to be a matter of belief and feeling, rather than fact, perhaps it simply can't be argued objectively. I'll say that I don't see proof that Trek fans are stupider on the whole than Wars fans, or that the worst examples from one are inherently worse than the other.

It sounds like we're discussing political parties, rather than popular sci fi franchises now. ; )

There are much better ones on TF.N and SW.com to pick from.

Supershadow gained notierity because of his lies more then not.

Darkstar gained his by pure bald stupidity

What one gains through a cunning of sorts versus another almost legnedary ignorance of science is why they aren't the same animal. One man's stupidity is not always the same type as another's.

As for who's fans are better...in many ways the rabid are rabid regardless of sci-fi, thus actually both should be mocked.

Granted there are tons of stupid, idiotic or lying fans out there. I agree with you. That is reason enough to avoid the official site and main fan site, unfortunately (great as the sites are). TFN has officially denounced SuperShadow as a fraud, at least.

It is simply impossible for me to document the stupidity in Star Wars, much less Star Trek. I've seen enough of both without seeking it. Does fandom itself breed stupidity? I don't think it does, it's just that in any public forum you're bound to have people who abuse their rights and privileges, and it will be extremely difficult if not impossible to hold everyone to the same ideal intellectual & civil standards, much as we wish we could (*insert joke about 13 year olds running the internet here*).

[Ghost Rider]

Anything popular will always breed the fanwhore.

Always.

While people will abuse stuff in a public forum, there are always fans who will deny anything bad of the favorite series till the day they die because of their bald ignorance of what is out there and their personal stubborness.

[Kurgan]

Yeah, again I agree. I think the trouble is the terms we use are bandied about almost as generic insults anymore, so it's hard to distinguish.

Fanwhore, fanwanker, fanboy, trektard, rabid warsie, etc.


Might as well be calling each other "stupid doodey head" for all the sense it makes. I understand these terms are supposed to mean something (some of them even have wikipedia entries, which isn't surprising given the nature of wikipedia).

Everyone is unique, so there's probably as many kinds of stupidity as there are people.

[Ghost Rider]

Yeah, again I agree. I think the trouble is the terms we use are bandied about almost as generic insults anymore, so it's hard to distinguish.

Fanwhore, fanwanker, fanboy, trektard, rabid warsie, etc.


Might as well be calling each other "stupid doodey head" for all the sense it makes. I understand these terms are supposed to mean something (some of them even have wikipedia entries, which isn't surprising given the nature of wikipedia).

Everyone is unique, so there's probably as many kinds of stupidity as there are people.

They are bandied about, but they are distinct difference in some.

The fanwhore literally is the epitome of the insane fan.

Many of the other unique ones are more associated but levels of fanwhore, of specfic fandoms, but such nonetheless.

Then we can go into the ones that just simply lie but aren't really caring of the fandom in general, but more in impressions of knowledge or insiders knowledge.

You can slot some genralities you just have to be aware of there are distinct differences because while stupid are to be mocked, they are diffences in what people do in their pursuit of ignorance.

[Kurgan]

Well now then you get into psychology, etc.

I mean, is the difference between Darkstar and SuperShadow that one of them actually believes what he says?

I mean, people have said DarkStar is "dishonest" that he's lying to people, that he secretly knows Star Trek would lose, and he's distorting the info.

So he's such an obsessed fan that he lies to prove himself.


OR, the claim that he's simply stupid, that he can't analyze information in a logical manner and thus will never understand other points of view.

Or maybe he just does it for attention. He doesn't care about Star Trek or Star Wars, he just does it because he likes getting a rise out of people and arguing with them.

SuperShadow could be claimed to be a terrible liar who wishes to be popular with fans online and well thought of. He wants to be an insider but he can't, so he does the next best thing and claims he is one, and uses the fact that so much information is flying around to cover when he's wrong. He could be out to get people's money by offering a pay service and not putting out.

OR SS could be literally delusional. He may really believe that Lucas is listening to his every word and cares about what he thinks. He may honestly think that by putting up pictures of models that he will get a woman like that to like him. He may think that his own ideas actually come from the mind of Lucas or whatever. Or maybe he just enjoys fooling people and its an elaborate parody.

I mean yeah, blah blah blah, there's a lot of possibilities, but I've heard people say all kinds of things. A poll on the subject would probably be pointless. We can't read these guy's thoughts, we can only call BS when we see it, right?

I'm just agreeing anyway, so I'll leave off further ranting. ; )

If you want to clarify exactly what categories SuperShadow and DarkStar fit into, go ahead, if it's helpful to anyone. I am fine with "take with large helping of salt."