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[Praxis]

For Transphasic torpedoes- Borg adapted to phased weapons based on their frequencies, therefore transphasic torpedoes are simply armor-peircing torpedoes that the Borg can't adapt to. It goes right through their adaptive shields, right through their cheesecake armor, and explodes inside.

[brianeyci]

right through their cheesecake armor, and explodes inside.

Yes, but you can't argue that the yield of the weapon isn't far higher than photon torpedoes. When the Enterprise-D first fired photons at the Borg, they didn't embed themselves inside the Borg cube and explode it in one hit. Photon torpedoes have hit unshielded ships before, and haven't destroyed them in one hit.

Brian

[brianeyci]

As well, in ST:FC, the Fed fleet was fighting the Borg cube for hours. The Borg cube had already lost their shields and had substantial damage to their hull. Unless you want to argue that the Borg cube still had shields. Once Section31.com's movie section is back online, I'm sure I'll be able to show you a pic of the Borg cube being strafed by Defiant and no shields.

Transphasic torpedoes are at least several orders of magnitude higher than photons to be able to blow up a Borg cube in one hit.

Brian

[Praxis]

right through their cheesecake armor, and explodes inside.

Yes, but you can't argue that the yield of the weapon isn't far higher than photon torpedoes. When the Enterprise-D first fired photons at the Borg, they didn't embed themselves inside the Borg cube and explode it in one hit. Photon torpedoes have hit unshielded ships before, and haven't destroyed them in one hit.

Brian

Watch that episode again. The explosions hit the armor, before the Borg have adapted. The craters were HUGE (bigger than the Enterprise), pointing to really weak hull on the part of the Borg- and this is against their outer armor.

If you had an armor peircing torpedo that they couldn't adapt to, and gave it the strength of a quantum torpedo (3x a photon), and were able to get it to go inside the cube and explode at the center or against a weak point, one hit should do it. Without their adaptive shields, Borg cubes are pathetic.

[brianeyci]

Watch that episode again.

No can do friend, no DVD's and my TV only goes up to chan 28. The craters might have been huge, but then the Borg ship regenerated the craters pretty fast. Now a quantum, with 3x the damage of a photon, could not not have blown up that Borg ship. You could argue for several quantums, but then I could argue that if Ent-D fired 275 photon torpedoes they could have blown the Borg ship to smitherines before it regenerated. At least, transphasic torpedoes are far powerful than quantums to be able to do what would take a full spread of quantums to do.

and were able to get it to go inside the cube and explode at the center or against a weak point, one hit should do it.

In ST:FC, Borg shields were down and they could have transported a quantum into the center of the Borg cube (a transported torpedo has been used as a weapon before I believe) to explode it rather than having to target a weak point. There was no way for Voyager to know of the "weak point" of a Borg cube. None exists. Do you believe that Picard fired on a FWP (fixed-weak-point) in ST:FC?

Exploding a quantum torp in the center of a Borg cube wouldn't work because of the design of a Borg cube, even if you argue that Borg ships have shitty armor. Borg ships have their command and control processes spread out across the entire ship, unless you got an incredibly lucky shot and hit the warp core.

Maybe we should split this discussion from this thread, we can debate it in another thread.

Brian

[Praxis]

As well, in ST:FC, the Fed fleet was fighting the Borg cube for hours. The Borg cube had already lost their shields and had substantial damage to their hull. Unless you want to argue that the Borg cube still had shields. Once Section31.com's movie section is back online, I'm sure I'll be able to show you a pic of the Borg cube being strafed by Defiant and no shields.

Transphasic torpedoes are at least several orders of magnitude higher than photons to be able to blow up a Borg cube in one hit.

Brian

I believe the adaptive shields were still up, just that some of the energy was bleeding through due to sheer volume of fire. We always see big explosions, even when the Borg adaptive shields are online (the Borg Cube was shrouded in the blast from photon torps even after it had adapted, it just didn't have any damage when the blast faded).

[brianeyci]

I believe the adaptive shields were still up, just that some of the energy was bleeding through due to sheer volume of fire. We always see big explosions, even when the Borg adaptive shields are online (the Borg Cube was shrouded in the blast from photon torps even after it had adapted, it just didn't have any damage when the blast faded).

Okay. Well to continue the discussion we need screencaps of Voyager destroying Borg cubes. If it looks like how 8472 destroys Borg cubes -- tearing the Borg cube into big chunks, then you could argue that the yield of transphasic torps is not significantly greater than quantum torps.

But if it looks like how I think it looks -- the entire Borg cube being vaporized, then transphasic torps do something an armor-piercing torp with the yield of a quantum couldn't do.

Brian

[SirNitram]

Internal explosions after the torpedo punches through the 'armour'.



Several seconds later, the reactor does it's impression of a M-80, taking the ship to the grave.


No vaporization. Hell, the delay between the internal explosions and the death clearly shows the warhead simply made the reactor cook off.

[SCVN 2812]

It occurs to me a decent way of deciding how useful the new ablative armor is would be to compare how much of a beating Voyager took against the Tactical Cube and how long it took to force it to flee and the nebula battle with the Borg cubes.

Don't have either episode downloaded or on DVD though and never even saw the Tactical Cube battle, that was long after my local network had quit showing Voyager and I didn't get UPN. It was a fluke that I had good enough reception one night to get a station that showed the finale.

[SirNitram]

Given that dialogue in that episode indicates the Queen was just messing with Voyager, the Tactical Cube Incident is likely a poor example.

[Darth Servo]

In the canon debate vs Darkstar's BS assumption that EU=invalid, the whole thing hinges on the trekkie ultraliteral interpretation of "universe"

Might I suggest that all pro-wars posts just demand justification of that assumption?

[Lord Revan]

I didn't go to the forum's, but in main site he says his "points" as matter of fact with little if any justification for his numbers. In the mainsite Mike's points have at least half a page of proof for his numbers. At least to me this site seem use "lets skip the boring part and go straight to the conclutions" method, which to me screams "bullshit" since that "boring part" is needed to prove his point's.

[Mange]

In the canon debate vs Darkstar's BS assumption that EU=invalid, the whole thing hinges on the trekkie ultraliteral interpretation of "universe"

Might I suggest that all pro-wars posts just demand justification of that assumption?

A good suggestion. I seriously don't believe that some of the morons over there can understand what they're reading. Captain Newland and Gstone are both rewording and misqouting various quotes on a regular basis.

[Lord Poe]

In the canon debate vs Darkstar's BS assumption that EU=invalid, the whole thing hinges on the trekkie ultraliteral interpretation of "universe"

Might I suggest that all pro-wars posts just demand justification of that assumption?

Doesn't matter. See, Darkstar was so completely destroyed by the VS arguments when he was on ASVS, where it was proved to him that the tech manuals and such were completely invalid per Paramount, he decided he was going to poke his lower lip out and go home, and make up his own rules. Meaning that he wants the WARS side to use "live canon"
only, and no EU.

[DarkSilver]

Meaning, he ignores EU when making his statements, and trying to find "his proof".

If that's the case, then his arguements are flawed from the very begining, Paramount and Lucasfilm's Canon Policies are clear and explicit, trying to make a arguement without utilizing all available facts is a flawed stance.



And Praxis: Your right, Paramount has stated Transphasic's are Borg only weapons, they never stated just in what way. They cannot be adapted for use against any other Race, only the Borg.



and if any of them try to argue the point of Ablative Armor Generators, quote from a Paramount employee who works with Star Trek: "Ablative Armor Generators are complete and utter bullshit. The Writer's made them like they made Transphasic Torpedo's, adding that much mass in armor to a "modern" trek ship would strain the design. There's no way in hell the current Starfleet could outfit themselves with it."

Thus, Ablative Armor "Generators" are brainbugs, by his own definition.



Quote came from the employee when I was thinking of putting together a Trek/Wars crossover, and was exploring the various treknologies and star wars tech, the paramount employee is currently a player in said game also. He wouldn't take away a possible Federation advantage if it wasn't possible (since he plays a Star Fleeter.....)

[brianeyci]

and if any of them try to argue the point of Ablative Armor Generators...

Let them have it. Phasers aren't DET weapons, and any kind of armor dense enough should stop NDF effect. Federation can't use Ablative Armor Generators because its against the Temporal Prime Directive. Its not like the ablative armor is quantifiable since we only see it being used against NDF weapons, so you can't debate using it, even if you manage to weasel out of the Temporal Prime Directive.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Quote from a Paramount employee who works with Star Trek: "Ablative Armor Generators are complete and utter bullshit. The Writer's made them like they made Transphasic Torpedo's, adding that much mass in armor to a "modern" trek ship would strain the design. There's no way in hell the current Starfleet could outfit themselves with it."

Well no. Voyager outfitted ablative armor generators without a spacedock and using her own resources. Any Fed ship could do it. Just that there's this pesky thing called the Temporal Prime Directive, and given that we don't see Enterprise-E in Nemesis using it... plus they could always turn off the ablative armor, so too much mass is not a concern.

Plus what a Paramount employee says is not canon. Not that it matters anyway. SF won't use ablative armor generators.

Brian

[Darth Servo]

I've got to share this with the board...

And the fact that SW shields have a brief visible-ness before disappearing feature, indicating frequency windows in the shields, doesn't bode well for Wars ships, if the feds can now transport through shields.

Then, why is it, during ESB, when the ISD is firing on the Falcon, we can not only see the ship, we got 3PO complaining if they get hit once more, a part of their shields will go down? How can we see the SSD in ROtJ right before they lose their deflector shields, which I think were specified to those for the bridge?

The shields have some frequency to them to let at least visible light through and possibly weapon energy, otherwise we would see the energy of the shield because the frequency of the shields would keep the light from getting to the vessel and reflect back to the camera, having whatever number of colors. In TPM, when Anakin is on the Trade Fed ship, he gets the shields working and we briefly see them. Then, they vanish. At this point, we know they are hull hugging shields. He pulls one of the controls back and two glowing objects come out. Whether there is a solid object within the glowing area or not, we know they pass through the shields.

There is some amount of frequency setting to them.

The shields are up, we see the ship. Visible light is boucing off th ships. Visible light is not interacting with the shields. Therefore, the shields are designed to let visible light in and back out, which means they have some frequency to them. If they didn't, we'd be seeing blobs of energy fly through space, not ships.

Do you not have a basic understanding of vision? Take the human eye or a camera. Light hits an object and that light interacts with said object. When the light comes into contact with a recepter, information about the interaction that is with the light is translated by the recepter and processed by the rest of the entity picking up on the light. Now, what are we seeing in Wars? We see the ships. Why? Because light is interacting with the ships themselves and we see them clearly as we do when we know the shields are off. If light interacted with the shields in any amount, some of the ship would be replaced with whatever color the shields would be when interacting with the light and the amount less we would see of the ships would be determined by the amount and intensity of the interaction. If we don't see shields, that means the light is not interacting with the energy of the shields.

Yes people, this moron things that unless an energy shield has a specific frequency like Trek shields, it should be opaque. I pointed out that a simple piece of glass easily refutes this "theory" and he has ignored it.

[brianeyci]

Yes people, this moron things that unless an energy shield has a specific frequency like Trek shields, it should be opaque.

Well I'm a moron too, at least I was more of one in the morning than I am now. I thought the argument that "you can see it therefore it has a frequency" applied to blasters against Borg drone shielding, and probably would have thought the same thing as that guy. After being scolded by GR for being retarded, and since I didn't steal my HS physics textbook, I looked at this site for a few minutes. It seems to be a reputable site.

If I understand properly, if the energy in the shield is being propagated through a wave, then the shield itself has a frequency. However, there is no reason to assume that Wars does this, because Wars opens up holes in their shielding to let guns shoot through (SirNitram mentioned this to me). Trek shields need a way for the phasers and torps to shoot through, so having a frequency makes sense. If I had to explain this to my morning self, I would have say that the term frequency only would apply to a wave with a repetitive pattern of particle vibration. No reason to assume that Wars shields do this.

So the appropriate answer to the "Wars shields have to have frequency because you can see Wars ships" would be to say that light itself has a frequency, but that does not mean that the shield itself propagates energy through a wave with repetitive pattern of particle movement. Am I correct?

I am still confused though. Since waves are energy transport mediums, and transport kinetic energy between particles, how do you reconcile energy shields with waves? Can energy exist outside a transport medium and be shaped into say, a shell around something like a shield, or is there always a transport medium necessary? I guess my question is what the hell is "pure energy" and is "pure energy" the response to someone who says that shields have to have an operating frequency?

Brian

[Connor MacLeod]

Servo -

so under this guy's logic, it should be easy to defeat the Borg by using a laser tuned to visual frequencies, since shields obviously aren't blocking them, and we've never seen then adapt to those frequencies?

[Connor MacLeod]

As for the adaptive armor generators.. considering that the mass to create said armor has to come from somewhere (in this case, ,the ship generating it), there is no real advantage to the system for a warship - its already paying to lug around all that excess mass, so it won't matter if its already in the form of armor.

The only conceivable reason I can see for the "generators" is that a Federation ship is not strictly a warship, so it might need or want to use the materials used to create the "armor" for other purposes.

[Darth Wong]

Yes people, this moron things that unless an energy shield has a specific frequency like Trek shields, it should be opaque. I pointed out that a simple piece of glass easily refutes this "theory" and he has ignored it.

Trek frequency-wankers usually ignore analogies taken from real-life knowledge, because they honestly don't undertand why it should apply.

[Lord Poe]

Good job at shoving Scooter's bullshit right in his face, Vympel! LOL! Its so funny to see him backpedal from his dirt comments, bring up the canon quotes for blasters having power settings then try to pussy out from using them, etc.

Keep it up. Its so funny to see the bitch caught!

[brianeyci]

so under this guy's logic, it should be easy to defeat the Borg by using a laser tuned to visual frequencies...

I'm not the same guy, but this is what I was thinking about too. Since light can pass through the shield, and it has a frequency, should not a really powerful laser be able to pass through shields (not specific to Wars, both Trek and Wars, especially Trek since Trek has frequency as canon)? We know that isn't the case though because lasers are stopped by the Enterprise's navigational deflector array. But how can the navigational array of the Enterprise stop lasers if we can see the Enterprise and therefore see light?

Brian

[Lord Pounder]

so under this guy's logic, it should be easy to defeat the Borg by using a laser tuned to visual frequencies...

I'm not the same guy, but this is what I was thinking about too. Since light can pass through the shield, and it has a frequency, should not a really powerful laser be able to pass through shields (not specific to Wars, both Trek and Wars, especially Trek since Trek has frequency as canon)? We know that isn't the case though because lasers are stopped by the Enterprise's navigational deflector array. But how can the navigational array of the Enterprise stop lasers if we can see the Enterprise and therefore see light?

Brian

Wrong, we know that the Enterprise D's navigational array can stop weak assed Parkled(sp?) lasers IIRC. Am i resistant to boulders because a small stone thrown at me wouldn't hurt me?