Nemesis: we don't need no stinkin continuity!!!

[data_link]

They were going to be relocated out of the system where they would have no longer hade their imortality. That might as well be extermination.

So, not letting someone be immortal is the same as killing them? I guess the Ba'ku were responsible for exterminating every mortal being in known space by not bringing them to the Ba'ku planet.

[Alyeska]

They were going to be relocated out of the system where they would have no longer hade their imortality. That might as well be extermination.

So, not letting someone be immortal is the same as killing them? I guess the Ba'ku were responsible for exterminating every mortal being in known space by not bringing them to the Ba'ku planet.

So violating other governments is just fine?

What is better? Giving people a doubled life span even though they are still going to die and thus allow the Baku to die? Or continue to live your normal life span and they live imortally.

Lets put it this way. If the USA could double the worlds life span at the expense of cutting their own, should they do it?

The Baku have the legal owning of the planet, they are the sovereign government. It is there will to do with it as they please. When the Federation assists in removing what makes the Baku life possible then the Federation is taking part in what happens to the people.

I seem to recall that people equated Archer and his doctor in taking part in genocide by witholding medicine to a dying race because they wanted to support a slightly inferior race. All Archer did is withold medecine. The Federation here is assisting in outright theft of the Baku way of life.

[Guest]

They were going to be relocated out of the system where they would have no longer hade their imortality. That might as well be extermination.

So, not letting someone be immortal is the same as killing them? I guess the Ba'ku were responsible for exterminating every mortal being in known space by not bringing them to the Ba'ku planet.

So violating other governments is just fine?

What is better? Giving people a doubled life span even though they are still going to die and thus allow the Baku to die? Or continue to live your normal life span and they live imortally.

Lets put it this way. If the USA could double the worlds life span at the expense of cutting their own, should they do it?

The Baku have the legal owning of the planet, they are the sovereign government. It is there will to do with it as they please. When the Federation assists in removing what makes the Baku life possible then the Federation is taking part in what happens to the people.

I seem to recall that people equated Archer and his doctor in taking part in genocide by witholding medicine to a dying race because they wanted to support a slightly inferior race. All Archer did is withold medecine. The Federation here is assisting in outright theft of the Baku way of life.

Shortening the life span of the average American is a lot different from preserving the immortality of 600 people. The ends justify the means in this situation. If trillions can benefit from the loss of immortality of people who were not native to that planet then it is a good trade.

[neoolong]

Just wondering, but how big is that planet? I mean c'mon 600 people can't just be moved or something. Then build some health spas and let people visit and extend their lifespans. The 600 are still there.

[Alyeska]

Just wondering, but how big is that planet? I mean c'mon 600 people can't just be moved or something. Then build some health spas and let people visit and extend their lifespans. The 600 are still there.

That was the universal consensus at SB. They ought to just build some massive freaking spas on the other side of the planet. They could litterally fits billions of people there, just approach from the opposite side of the planet. No Baku are hurt, rather then temporary life span increases people can come here and continuealy get rejuvinated. We saw just how fast it managed to affect Picard and his advanced old age (he is in his 70s). Anyone interested merely needs to spend a couple weeks or months there to start rejuvinating them then they can leave. Harvesting the planet removes all the particles, at best they can be used for a few years then its all gone. The Baku die, the Federation people got a small life extension.

Leaving the planet as is makes for one hell of a fountain of youth that isn't wasted by sucking up all the particles that make it work and using them up on a trillion people all at once there by wasting them.

[Guest]

Just wondering, but how big is that planet? I mean c'mon 600 people can't just be moved or something. Then build some health spas and let people visit and extend their lifespans. The 600 are still there.

A planet that valuable should be worth enough to most governments to go to war for. I can imagine the Romulans, Klingons, Cardassians, and Federation fighting for control of it. It is a galactic fountain of youth.

[Patrick Degan]

(quoting Marina Sirtis)"We have butted heads a little bit, because we'll say, 'This is the history,' and Stuart will say, 'Well, I don't really care about the history. I'm approaching this like it's the first Star Trek movie'."

I'm sure that the second Stuart Baird said that in the job interview, Brannon Braga peed his pants with joy and said "You're HIRED!"

[data_link]

That was the universal consensus at SB. They ought to just build some massive freaking spas on the other side of the planet. They could litterally fits billions of people there, just approach from the opposite side of the planet. No Baku are hurt, rather then temporary life span increases people can come here and continuealy get rejuvinated. We saw just how fast it managed to affect Picard and his advanced old age (he is in his 70s). Anyone interested merely needs to spend a couple weeks or months there to start rejuvinating them then they can leave. Harvesting the planet removes all the particles, at best they can be used for a few years then its all gone. The Baku die, the Federation people got a small life extension.

Leaving the planet as is makes for one hell of a fountain of youth that isn't wasted by sucking up all the particles that make it work and using them up on a trillion people all at once there by wasting them.

Who is to say that if the particles are harvested that you will only be able to treat a limited number of people with them? You seem to be arguing that the rings will last forever - and indeed there is no indication of the rings decaying - but why should this be any different after the mataphasic particles are harvested? This being the case you can cure as many people as you like as many times as you like - and you won't be limited by the slow healing rate of the planet (which, according to the Admiral, was too slow to reverse the So'na condition before it killed them). Also, because you can bring the cure to the people instead of vice versa you greatly increas the number of people that can be helped by metaphasics. Simply put - it makes more sense to harvest the rings. If you feel bad about it you can give free treatment to the ba'ku at regular intervals.

Of course, if the metaphasic particles can only be used for a limited number of treatments after they have been harvested, then you would have a case. But given that the Federation Council was actually willing to violate its own prime directive (which they usually aren't smart enough to consider, even when it is obviously justified), I doubt they could have decided that if any such limit was likely to exist.

[Alyeska]

That was the universal consensus at SB. They ought to just build some massive freaking spas on the other side of the planet. They could litterally fits billions of people there, just approach from the opposite side of the planet. No Baku are hurt, rather then temporary life span increases people can come here and continuealy get rejuvinated. We saw just how fast it managed to affect Picard and his advanced old age (he is in his 70s). Anyone interested merely needs to spend a couple weeks or months there to start rejuvinating them then they can leave. Harvesting the planet removes all the particles, at best they can be used for a few years then its all gone. The Baku die, the Federation people got a small life extension.

Leaving the planet as is makes for one hell of a fountain of youth that isn't wasted by sucking up all the particles that make it work and using them up on a trillion people all at once there by wasting them.

Who is to say that if the particles are harvested that you will only be able to treat a limited number of people with them? You seem to be arguing that the rings will last forever - and indeed there is no indication of the rings decaying - but why should this be any different after the mataphasic particles are harvested? This being the case you can cure as many people as you like as many times as you like - and you won't be limited by the slow healing rate of the planet (which, according to the Admiral, was too slow to reverse the So'na condition before it killed them). Also, because you can bring the cure to the people instead of vice versa you greatly increas the number of people that can be helped by metaphasics. Simply put - it makes more sense to harvest the rings. If you feel bad about it you can give free treatment to the ba'ku at regular intervals.

Of course, if the metaphasic particles can only be used for a limited number of treatments after they have been harvested, then you would have a case. But given that the Federation Council was actually willing to violate its own prime directive (which they usually aren't smart enough to consider, even when it is obviously justified), I doubt they could have decided that if any such limit was likely to exist.

If, IF they could keep people alive forever, then I have no problem with it. Thing is the Admiral said that life spans would be doubled, not make people imortal.

On the other hand if they really wanted to, they could reasonably keep at least 5 billion people on that planet WITHOUT the Baku knowing. Probably more given just how small the Baku are. Rotate at least 5 billion a month and that ought to really reverse the aging. In 12 months thats 60 billion.

Heck, I just remembered the Nebula itself was also producing the same effect. Just build some colony stations in the entire region. I could see up to 20 billion if they built some nicely sized stations. 25 a month, 300 a year. IIRC the Federation was at most a couple Trillion. 7 years to rotate the entire Federation each being their a month. Keep up the rotation, and people could theoretically live forever.

[data_link]

If, IF they could keep people alive forever, then I have no problem with it. Thing is the Admiral said that life spans would be doubled, not make people imortal.

On the other hand if they really wanted to, they could reasonably keep at least 5 billion people on that planet WITHOUT the Baku knowing. Probably more given just how small the Baku are. Rotate at least 5 billion a month and that ought to really reverse the aging. In 12 months thats 60 billion.

Heck, I just remembered the Nebula itself was also producing the same effect. Just build some colony stations in the entire region. I could see up to 20 billion if they built some nicely sized stations. 25 a month, 300 a year. IIRC the Federation was at most a couple Trillion. 7 years to rotate the entire Federation each being their a month. Keep up the rotation, and people could theoretically live forever.

So then we agree - if the harvested metaphasic particles could be used indefinitely, then the rings should be harvested. If not, then the Federation should build a colony on the other side of the planet. In either case, simply leaving the planet behind because of the Ba'ku is a monumentally stupid course of action.

I simply don't believe that the Federation council would ever make a decision to relocate the Ba'ku if indefinite use of the particles wasn't an option - indeed, they probably wouldn't risk destroying the rings permanently even if there was no one on the planet. Further, the physics of the metaphasic prticles - constructive radiation, particles throughout the entire briar patch, no appreciable decay of the rings, the fact that the planet even has rings without shepard moons - suggests that metaphasic particles are self sustaining, which would allow them to be used indefinately after collection. The evidence here suggests that Admiral Dougherty (sp?) was actually underestimating the usefulness of the particles when he said they would "double human lifespan."

Of course, this is mostly speculation, but given the historical reliability of SF quotes, I tend to think that extrapolating from past starfleet behavior is more reliable than a single quote from an Admiral who is too stupid to explian to Picard that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

[Typhonis 1]

The series is dead let it lie in peace.....

[Guest]

The cost of rotating a few billion people every month on Baku is definitely not practical. Harvesting the metaphasic particles is a better idea. If you don't, Baku will just become a Starfleet base and resort for its personnel. The rest of the UFP will be neglected.

[Zoink]

I remember having this discussion a long time ago at SB.

The issue was: Did the federation have the take away immortality from the 600 Baku if it meant it could save the lives of billions.

My point was that the Baku lacked the capability to defend themselves. The federations options are thus:

1) Leave the Baku alone. The Baku would be removed/killed by the Sona, Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, Ferengi, or whomever wants it. This cure would then help this other empire/organization.

2) Defend the Baku. The federation will have to perpetually station ships to defend the Baku. Federation lives/resources will have to be sacrificed to defend the Baku's artificial utopia and artificial immortal lives. Is THIS fair?

3) Relocate the Baku and take the resources for themselves.

4) Force the Baku to allow visiters to the planet. However, Geordi lost his sight when he left, so many people would be permantly stuck on the planet to avoid death. Would a steadily rising population have the same effect as #3???

I argued for #3.

[Slartibartfast]

3) Relocate the Baku and take the resources for themselves.

4) Force the Baku to allow visiters to the planet. However, Geordi lost his sight when he left, so many people would be permantly stuck on the planet to avoid death. Would a steadily rising population have the same effect as #3???

Did Geordi lose his sight? I remember him saying that he didn't know IF he was going to lose it when they left, don't remember the ending where he actually does... I've tried to look it up on the 'net to no avail.

If this is the case, and the effects of the phasi-metric-whatever particles is temporary, wouldn't relocating the population kill them from rapid aging and/or old wounds reappearing?

[Alyeska]

3) Relocate the Baku and take the resources for themselves.

4) Force the Baku to allow visiters to the planet. However, Geordi lost his sight when he left, so many people would be permantly stuck on the planet to avoid death. Would a steadily rising population have the same effect as #3???

Did Geordi lose his sight? I remember him saying that he didn't know IF he was going to lose it when they left, don't remember the ending where he actually does... I've tried to look it up on the 'net to no avail.

If this is the case, and the effects of the phasi-metric-whatever particles is temporary, wouldn't relocating the population kill them from rapid aging and/or old wounds reappearing?

The pathetic thing is that Geordi was born BLIND and got his eyes back somehow while Picard was born with a heart then had a mechanical one installed yet Picards heart never acted up durring the movie.

I once read a ST book that sorta had something that reverted people back to their ideal healthy state and that included fighting off mechanical implants. Geordi lost his visor temporarily and Picard had to stay away from this stuff like the Plague lest he die from it. Seems some of the ST authors can get the continuity better then the ST series writers.

[Alyeska]

The cost of rotating a few billion people every month on Baku is definitely not practical. Harvesting the metaphasic particles is a better idea. If you don't, Baku will just become a Starfleet base and resort for its personnel. The rest of the UFP will be neglected.

If the particles were not indefinate upon harvesting, but were indefinate at the planet and system then rotating the people is the ONLY way to truely help the people of the Federation and it has the added benefit of being completely renewable compared to the "doubled lifespan" that the Admiral spoke about.

[Uraniun235]

Insurrection was "bad" because the action wasn't quite up to par with First Contact. If you look at it, the plot isn't any more mindless than First Contact's plot.

Woah... are you implying that Insurrection had a PLOT

Actually, I'm implying that First Contact didn't.